Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #11

[afitzy]

IMO, that's not jet stream going up. Looks more like something coming down, possibly a flare. Hard to tell what distance it's at.

Has that area been having the meteor showers that have been happening recently in other parts of North America further south? Some of the showers have been incredible.

 

[ilovechili]

I have been following along but not commenting much.

Just a thought, and definitely not a fact but they may have more $$ than we think. First off, perhaps parents offered some for this trip, is one possibility--apparently a vehicle and camper were provided.

But more so, I am thinking possibly CD and LF had cash. Her mother said she had been working double shifts serving to save for this trip. While most of us in our daily lives use debit cards or credit cards, on a trip I would never travel without cash, particularly out of the country.

If, as well, their planned trip was going to include remote areas where internet or cell coverage may be spotty, campgrounds, a business in a remote area, etc., may well deal in cash, etc. or it would just seem a good idea to have some cash along.

One can always call home for some help but not if one does not have cell phone coverage and/or are stranded where there is none. If LF and CD were aware this could be an issue, which he may well have been having lived there, I could see planning to take an amount of cash along.

I think it quite possible the teens may have taken cash from them, even a stash of it, as well as their personal documents and credit cards, etc. Of course, if the cash was hidden as well as CD's passport apparently was, perhaps they netted no cash.

I do not know what the botanist would possibly carry that way but they may well have netted some cash there too.

We know of little thus far they have spent money on other than probably on a fair amount of gas for the trip.

They could easily still have a fair amount of cash with them but the problem is they can't be seen most places to spend any of it. I guess if they encountered the right person, for the right amount of money they may help them or someone may have before alerts went out.

Then again, they may be low on cash or have none.

Jmo.

 

[afitzy]

I heard approx. six weeks. Not sure where.

According to BS father it was 2 paychecks from Walmart if I recall (it was in one of the early interviews where he was talking about his son).

 

[afitzy]

I've been following along on the recent mass murder in Markham/Toronto Menhaz Zaman where the murder suspect was into online gaming community in a major way.

I bring this up because we ran across an article talking about some of the online options in gaming and how the murder suspect was caught.

How a Group Of Gamers Tracked Down a Quadruple Murder Suspect

Not being an online gamer it was facinating to read more about this world and how all consuming it can become. I just wonder if this online world was as impt to the 2 suspects in this case as it appeared to be to the murder suspect in Toronto?

 

[FactFinder3000]

But this level of reporting spread over the entire Province of Ontario could result in diverting LE attention from other activities and certainly be a distraction from normal policing activities and this is concerning to read.

True. It'a already a problem.

Population of Manitoba: 1.35 million

Population of Ontario: 14.3 million

That's more than 10 times as many people. So that's why you're going to get more "sightings" in Ontario.

 

[afitzy]

True. It'a already a problem.

Population of Manitoba: 1.35 million

Population of Ontario: 14.3 million

That's more than 10 times as many people. So that's why you're going to get more "sightings" in Ontario.

Yes, population has an uneven distribution in the huge country of Cananda.

Good thing too that there is a much larger police presence in the Province as well, but its going to be challenging for LE as this could very well be the human equivalent of a snipe hunt!

Snipe hunt - Wikipedia (for those not familiar with this game)

 

[gitana1]

Very long time lurker first time poster here. I'm hardly an expert but I'm an avid outdoors person who once lived in a wet and wild part of Canada (thought not Manitoba) for many years and I caution against thinking they couldn't survive this long in the woods in summer. I think that *if* they entered the bush once the Rav4 was set alight and *if* they did a bit of preparation, there are better than even odds they are still alive. Here's what I'd consider important, plus of course a good pack to carry it all:

Water: the most important thing they'd need is water treatment, I carry a tiny Sawyer filter, good for 1000's of litres, and attaches to most store bought soda or water bottles so you don't need a fancy bladder. Walmart Canada has a no-name "water filtration straw" for $22. Boiling water is also an option if they have a stove and were careful when the intensive search was on. Even a few drops of everyday bleach will work in place of fancy water purification tablets

Shelter: I have no idea if they'd be on the move or not, at least after the first few days. If they kept moving a tarp would be the minimum but a tent with a mesh inner to deal with bugs would be better. If they've set up camp and are biding their time, assuming they have any of: a good machete, an axe, a saw, they could build a bushcraft shelter from natural materials.

Warmth: sleeping bags for night, good lightweight layers like merino wool pullovers or down jackets for sitting around. If not then fire is essential, which would have been impossible at night when the search was as its peak but they could get away with now if kept hot and small so the smoke doesn't rise above the tree line. There are numerous ignition sources, a small Bic lighter mini will last for weeks, a fire steel (like a flint) will last for thousands of strikes and work when wet. I don't think the matches on the ground at the Rav4 are any concern at all, they are often bought in multipacks, so dropping one box is not going to make too much difference

Food: I plan and prepare and dehydrate my meals so my food weight is roughly 800g per day. I could easily carry 10 days of food in summer when I'm not carrying extra clothing and have a lightweight sleeping bag and tent. Assuming they didn't plan and dehydrate meals and are living off mac'n'cheese, jerkey and ketchup chips then they'd probably have run out a few days ago. The easiest food source where they are is fish if they had just a basic rod and tackle kit. If they don't they'll still take at least another week to starve to death, longer if they're finding berries and the occasional small game.

And while injury or animal attack are certainly possible, they are not so extremely likely that I'd write these two off. I have no experience with the level of bugs that are reported, if they had allergies it could be fatal, but otherwise just I'd think just extremely annoying and irritating but survivable.

Thanks for that expert information. Super cool.

In Kerouac's On The Road his character and Dean end up in jungle in the south of Mexico and he describes the insanity of the mosquitoes. It sounds impossible.

If where they are is anything like that I don't think it's endurable.

 

[Herat]

I heard approx. six weeks. Not sure where.

The estimate was that they each made less than $900 Canadian from their Walmart work

 

[Seattle1]

This was posted in the hard copy of the National Post on Aug 2. There doesn't appear to be an online copy of the article other than pressreader.

View attachment 196544

View attachment 196545

I also saw it online before pressreader.

National Post had this similar story the day before --

‘It’s been blown out of proportion’: Online speculation causing havoc in manhunt for B.C. fugitives

 

[gitana1]

You make some very good points which all reminded me of the times when I did a lot of back-country camping and kayaking/canoeing. The furthest north I ever camped was in the Paint Lake (near Thompson) and Grass River areas (you could kayak or canoe all the way to Split Lake if you followed the entire route), but most of my experiences were in the south.

In the south the terrain is also very difficult, but there you're dealing with mostly solid rocky terrain, which is difficult enough to navigate, but it's less boggy and there are lots of rocky but clear areas to escape the near constant dampness of the bush. The thing with the north is that in the bush you are almost always wet or slightly damp at best, and unless you have a way of drying off and especially drying out your socks and footwear, travel and odds of survival definitely decrease over time. Speaking of footwear, they'll also have to have high-quality hiking boots, ideally, more than one pair each that they can rotate wearing. I don't know much about the army style boots BS was seen wearing, but I don't think they'd be appropriate for that terrain.

These two are inexperienced, I don't care how many camp-outs and survival games they played on Vancouver Island, Northern Manitoba with all the swamps, muskeg, dampness and bugs is a different beast altogether. I agree it's possible that they may still be alive if they're still up there) but they won't be for much longer.

I love hearing about this stuff. I'm too scared to do anything more than light camping in designated areas.

I found some videos that describe the bug situation. They'd have to have a tent it seems. And note that's the situation in the daytime.

 

[scrappinkat]

I find it alarming how many active missing people cases are in canada.

That was one of the early criticisms mentioned by a few. There’s so many missing persons, there is many that don’t even reach official police websites but are instead posted on Facebook and other social media. This past couple years the number of deaths due to drug use has also skyrocketed, with many of the deaths being elsewhere than the typical East Hastings deaths that used to be common but seldom reported on the news. Last year the focus was on how it’s your average neighbour who is at risk of an overdose, to be sure of your drugs before consuming them, there is even entire communities that offer naloxone training/kits. People are becoming used to seeing a missing persons report, or a report of a death in the media and just assuming the person uses drugs or has died as a result of an overdose.
A lot of people now gloss over missing people reports, along with suspicious death mentions in the media. No matter the circumstances the amount of missing people is quite staggering to me personally.

 

[10ofRods]

Hold on @otto, gotta ask for clarification on this one please as I'm confused what you are saying.

You are saying that you are a believer that the 2 suspects were 'missing' in the same way that we sadly see so often in other missing cases we follow? Namely, family or friends call LE frantically looking for loved ones and file a missing persons report and commence a search plan and media campaign?

There was a missing persons bulletin for at least 48 hours before RCMP named the teens as suspects in the deaths of Lucas and Chynna. It appears that bulletin was put up by RCMP (and not due to their parents calling one in or starting it). That's why Otto is questioning the messaging of the RCMP. I agree that this aspect should at least be logged away in our minds.

 

[NJSleuth91]

This article about the two German tourists who were stranded in N. Manitoba came out the other day, it gives you some idea what KM and BS are going through if they are still alive and in the bush.

Can the fugitives survive the Manitoba wilderness? Ask these German tourists. - Macleans.ca

That is an amazing story and gives a lot of perspective. My educated guess is the Germans likely had a good deal of wilderness experience to feel comfortable vacationing in such a remote area (the area they hiked out from was total wilderness) and that may have helped them. So I don't know if it would be the same with the two fugitives. Bryer's dad stated they had wilderness experience but we don't know how much we're talking. One thing this story does indicate though is the terrain is theoretically traversable, the water is potable with filtration, and the bugs and other hazards can be endured for at least several days.

The thing with the north is that in the bush you are almost always wet or slightly damp at best, and unless you have a way of drying off and especially drying out your socks and footwear, travel and odds of survival definitely decrease over time. Speaking of footwear, they'll also have to have high-quality hiking boots, ideally, more than one pair each that they can rotate wearing. I don't know much about the army style boots BS was seen wearing, but I don't think they'd be appropriate for that terrain.

Chronically wet feet could lead to infection such as trenchfoot too and that can get serious if not dealt with. It would be difficult to build a fire for drying out and cooking fish etc. while still evading detection, I would imagine.

Gosh, if they didn't find shelter, they could be blinded by insect bites, and the outlook would be bleak.

Plus the bites could get infected, especially in damp conditions. The German tourists dealt with it though -- the article linked has a picture of one of them surrounded by bugs. The fugitives should have brought mosquito net jackets that covered their entire head if they researched and prepared. But nobody knows what they brought.

I thought one of the most insightful thoughts on this topic was from the article with the interview with the German tourists. Paraphrasing, “survival is mostly about what you’re willing to do, rather that what you’re able to do”. These fugitives would seem to have little in the way of a end game that favours anything beyond arrest and trial. The drive to live in people is generally strong, but I think these guys would be more likely to essentially lay down and die than would the tourists wanting to get back to civilization and their homes, families and friends.

I had the same thought. The tourists had a whole life to get back to once they endured their trek. The fugitives have no good options. Even if they were able to hide out in civilization, fugitives have been caught decades later, and they would never be at peace again. They seemingly have nothing to keep going for. Plus as I mentioned in the last thread, they left obvious clues that they committed the murders, like burning their original car right near Professor Dyck's crime scene. If the endgame was getting away with it they had a high chance of doing so by just being careful and then heading back home in their original car like nothing happened. I think they chose not to do that for a reason.

But, you still need money - where is that coming from? Final pay-cheques from Walmart 'aint gonna cut it.

Total guess on my part but could they have had money saved up from birthdays, holidays, summer jobs, etc? I know after I graduated HS I had a few thousand dollars saved up from all that.

Plus it's possible the victims had cash they could have used.

One thing that struck me, and I have watched over and over (like I have no life), is the video of the two guys in the co-op. Their expressions look very sad to me and not at all like two young men out enjoying themselves on a road trip. Murder suicide would not surprise me at all.

The big unknown is did they intentionally start out on a killing spree leading to a manhunt that would essentially prevent them from taking casual labour jobs? I have no idea what happened when they connected with Lucas and Chynna, but maybe killing wasn't what they intended when they set out.

I had the same thought and have also rewatched the video a few times. Plus Bryer's classmate and dad in their interviews both made references to him being suicidal.

Your question about what happened and why, what the hell were they thinking, etc. is IMO the biggest one of the case and that's why I hope LE can find some answers about that.

interesting thought:
if you knew you were facing 25yrs in prison, why not just travel across the country till you get caught.
that would be a way of making a trip of a lifetime because all they will see are restricted areas when they get caught.
like bs dad said "go out blazing" memories to keep them content with the fact they messed their life up

That sounds more exciting than it would be in reality, with the unpleasant wilderness conditions and constant apprehension of being caught.

 

[ktm44]

I have been following along but not commenting much.

Just a thought, and definitely not a fact but they may have more $$ than we think. First off, perhaps parents offered some for this trip, is one possibility--apparently a vehicle and camper were provided.

But more so, I am thinking possibly CD and LF had cash. Her mother said she had been working double shifts serving to save for this trip. While most of us in our daily lives use debit cards or credit cards, on a trip I would never travel without cash, particularly out of the country.

If, as well, their planned trip was going to include remote areas where internet or cell coverage may be spotty, campgrounds, a business in a remote area, etc., may well deal in cash, etc. or it would just seem a good idea to have some cash along.

One can always call home for some help but not if one does not have cell phone coverage and/or are stranded where there is none. If LF and CD were aware this could be an issue, which he may well have been having lived there, I could see planning to take an amount of cash along.

I think it quite possible the teens may have taken cash from them, even a stash of it, as well as their personal documents and credit cards, etc. Of course, if the cash was hidden as well as CD's passport apparently was, perhaps they netted no cash.

I do not know what the botanist would possibly carry that way but they may well have netted some cash there too.

We know of little thus far they have spent money on other than probably on a fair amount of gas for the trip.

They could easily still have a fair amount of cash with them but the problem is they can't be seen most places to spend any of it. I guess if they encountered the right person, for the right amount of money they may help them or someone may have before alerts went out.

Then again, they may be low on cash or have none.

Jmo.

Having worked in retail for a while, young people are fond of the prepaid gift cards (visa and mastercard), which are marginally better than carrying cash and Canadians are quite fond of their tap credit and debit cards. The tap feature is so common that one typically has to have their bank disable it, which I have done so I can't speak of specifics but I believe that the tap feature works on transactions under $100.

The original artist sketch of the professor was very accurate and I can't imagine that someone in his family didn't catch it on the news and contacted RCMP simply because it sounds like it's an area he frequented and RCMP typically discloses what they feel they need to further their investigation, I have a feeling that he was identified fairly early on but without identifying him publicly, the RCMP were possibly tracking transactions on his bank or credit card statements. It may be those transactions and burned vehicle that tied things together enough to lay charges.

 

[KR72]

I love hearing about this stuff. I'm too scared to do anything more than light camping in designated areas.

I found some videos that describe the bug situation. They'd have to have a tent it seems. And note that's the situation in the daytime.

It takes a lot of prep and equipment, and important to go with someone who knows what they're doing, but despite the horrendous bugs, so well worth it. Amazing scenery, incredible waterfalls, fast rivers with whitewater rapids, also important pictographs in some areas. Getting to see the pictographs in the north was probably one of the most amazing experiences in my life because so few get to see them up close and in person.

 

[Badgerette]

I'm very interested in what people think about what was going on during two periods of time:

1. from the early morning hours of 15 July near Liard Hot Springs to the sighting at Jade City on the 18th July (~4 hours drive)
2. from 22nd July ~4pm Split Lake Checkpoint to burning Rav4 near Fox Creek 22nd July 7PM (~2 hours drive)

For (1) they had 3 days unaccounted for, where were they and what were they doing?

For (2) they had around one hour unaccounted for to pack what they needed, set the car on fire then either hike out into the bush or hijack a car to leave the area

I have seen conflicting reports of the burning car being found on the 22nd or the 23rd but I'm going with 22nd based on CBC timeline https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/northern-bc-killings-manitoba-1.5224278

Were they camping in the location where the burned out pickup truck was found/did LD stumble upon them doing something...

 

[OldCop]

Hold on @otto, gotta ask for clarification on this one please as I'm confused what you are saying.

You are saying that you are a believer that the 2 suspects were 'missing' in the same way that we sadly see so often in other missing cases we follow? Namely, family or friends call LE frantically looking for loved ones and file a missing persons report and commence a search plan and media campaign?

I believe they were listed as missing when their burned camper truck was found and there was no sign of them. RCMP likely ran the plates, contacted the family, and were told the boys had not been heard from. So, unless and until someone found them, they were considered missing.
I may be wrong, but I believe Otto may have been referring to the fact that some critics of the way this case was handled have said that the RCMP should have announced the pair was missing but, if they were found, they should not be approached. This, because of the 2 homicide victims earlier in the week. However, I’m willing to be that RCMP originally thought the missing teens were victims not suspects.

 

[SBurrus]

And let's not forget BS's birthday is tomorrow, August 4th. Maybe something "significant" will happen tomorrow.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I love hearing about this stuff. I'm too scared to do anything more than light camping in designated areas.

I found some videos that describe the bug situation. They'd have to have a tent it seems. And note that's the situation in the daytime.

The mosquito situation sounds hellish! Here’s a road sign from Alaska that perhaps barely exaggerates how formidable an opponent the mosquitos are!
Alaskan roadsigns designed to make sure you are REALLY concentrating | Daily Mail Online

 

[gitana1]

It takes a lot of prep and equipment, and important to go with someone who knows what they're doing, but despite the horrendous bugs, so well worth it. Amazing scenery, incredible waterfalls, fast rivers with whitewater rapids, also important pictographs in some areas. Getting to see the pictographs in the north was probably one of the most amazing experiences in my life because so few get to see them up close and in person.

I bet. The farthest I've been is the sequoias up a seven mile dirt road, no stores around for 20 miles or so. It was a designated campsite though and pretty idyllic. Trails up to pristine lakes that had trout in them, etc.

But I had moments of serious anxiety being so far from contact with emergency services, hospitals, etc.

It fascinates me to hear about people's experiences doing serious wilderness excursions. I wish I had the fortitude to do it.

I'm not sure these guys do. It's hard to say. What were they really doing out in their outdoors near their home? One parent describes it as war games and survivalist stuff both of which are different things. Did they acquire any real knowledge? Do they have any real skill?

That would make the difference for me in determining their survivability. I'm guessing the RCMP has had extensive discussions with family and friends and neighbors and has examined their internet activity and purchases so they probably know whether these two young guys can handle it and possibly for how long.