Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by Strangeworld, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. SnooperDuper

    SnooperDuper Well-Known Member

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    No, "blaze of glory" is a direct quote:

    "He's on a suicide mission. He wants his pain to end, " Alan said, breaking down into tears. "Basically, he's going to be dead today or tomorrow. I know that. Rest in peace, Bryer. I love you. I'm so sorry all this had to happen."

    Even if his son is caught, his life will be over, Alan said.

    "They're going to go out in a blaze of glory. Trust me on this. That's what they're going to do."

    B.C. suspects will go out in ‘blaze of glory,’ father says
     


  2. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    There's no evidence that he ever mistreated Bryer directly. And I do believe that he truly loves Bryer but just had no ability to parent due to his mental illnesses.

    The following is JMO:

    However, there is tons of evidence that Bryer grew up with instability and domestic violence. Someone doesn't get charged with criminal harassment several times and is only allowed supervised visits with their son for years over nothing. Social services lets a lot of this stuff slide because they are overloaded with cases and it's very easy for things to slip under the radar unless they're really obvious. If it got to that point, it was probably REALLY bad -- probably worse than even social services knew. Like, my mom literally got arrested for strangling my brother once, and she never lost parental rights.

    It's also telling that his dad had no custody and only had supervised visits for several years. Social services, these days, usually tries to allow parents to regain their parental rights. In fact a lot of times kids are sent back to their parents and then social services ends up regretting it because the same problems show up again. So for him to never regain parental rights, to me that indicates there must have been severe long-standing issues. And his bizarre statements, arrests for criminal harassment dating up to 2018, and long-term homelessness seem to point in that direction too.

    I can kind of read between the lines on some of this stuff too because I grew up with it. The fact that two of the arrests happened on Bryer's birthday and on Christmas says a lot -- in dysfunctional families the worst fights and escalations tend to happen on holidays, but I'd bet money that there was probably stuff happening every day.

    The fact that Bryer would never have anyone over to his house, not even after he was in a more stable living situation with his grandma, not even Kam who he was uncommonly close to, also to me is a huge red flag. It's very common for people who grew up in dysfunctional families to have a lot of anxiety about people coming over, even years later, and even when they are not living in a dysfunctional household anymore. The reasons for this are probably: a) obviously you can't have people over if a fight could break out at any time, and part of you still has residual anxiety about that happening, b) in a dysfunctional household, the people who DO come over are usually cops and social workers, so you feel subconsciously like anyone coming over is like an "intruder" who is going to pry into and judge your life, c) a lot of times family dysfunction is hidden and there's a lot of "don't let anyone know about it," so your home sort of becomes like an off-limits to outsiders thing in your mind. So anyway when I saw Bryer's dad and others mention that, I immediately knew what it meant.

    All JMO.
     
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  3. Curiouspersonxyz

    Curiouspersonxyz Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me after some research (but I am not a lawyer) that the Canadian laws regarding profiting from criminal notoriety concern the criminal themselves (see The law should ensure Pickton never profits from his horrific crimes - The Globe and Mail ). In addition, these types of “son of Sam” laws vary by state in the US and by province in Canada (eg in Manitoba - The Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act)

    The main thing I have found from my research relates to “Son of Sam” laws in the US. These laws have had many legal challenges and resultant changes to try to respond to legal rulings to make them constitutional and enforceable. This review starts off with an interesting case regarding a relative (Feature: ‘Son of Sam’ Laws: How Much Does Crime Pay?)

    “On July 11, 2010, after two years of evading authorities in eight states and three countries, the “Barefoot Bandit” was caught by police in the Bahamas. Nineteen–year–old Colton Harris-Moore, infamous for his shoeless crime sprees, is awaiting possible prosecution of more than 70 crimes committed during his two–year run. Allegations against him include theft of airplanes, luxury vehicles, and pleasure boats totaling more than $3 million. On July 9, two days before authorities caught Harris-Moore, The Seattle Times reported that his mother, Pam Kohler, had hired an entertainment attorney to handle “entertainment” interests related to the case.”

    The article describes the results of legal challenges to this case and others (eg legal challenges to OJs children getting the profits from a book he wrote).

    I think, as others have posted, the suspect’s father may have no legal restrictions and might, in the future, endeavor to tell his story in any way he can (including ways that might earn a profit). I think the various examples in the articles cited above show the limited ability to restrict any future commercialization of the story by the father or anyone else (except, I guess, those legal limitations that might relate to libel/defamation of living persons in published materials).

    My thoughts are that social norms and ethical views about providing inside information by family and others (whether for profit or not) will be divergent as to whether it is appropriate or not. But whether I like the way it is done or not, the pressure is going to be to share info. I think the suspect’s father is an anomaly in how much he shares and the McLeod’s family may be an anomaly in how little they share - but both, from my perspective, are understandable and to be respected.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  4. SnooperDuper

    SnooperDuper Well-Known Member

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    But legally he is both a parent and a relative.

    If BS has had any assets when he died, AS and DS would have inherited them as parents and closest relatives. IF AS had died, BS would inherit as a son.

    Just because AS didn't have custody of BS when he was a kid does not mean AS is not a parent or relative under the law.
     
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  5. Esprite

    Esprite Well-Known Member

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  6. webbie

    webbie On Time Out

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    You may not like it but that's how news media works: reporters go on location, ask questions, take photos, submit stories which, after review, the paper publishes.

    Your outrage would be best served if directed at the publishers, letting them know that they should censor their stories to preserve the grieving families.
     
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  7. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    I'm aware. There is about 0% chance they would ever change their policies because some random person sends them an email complaining about it, so no point in bothering. They make a lot of money off of this stuff. Going to the families' houses and taking pictures was totally unnecessary to tell the story though...what does Bryer's grandma's lawn ornaments have to do with a murder spree? Also, if they really felt the need to show their houses to give some sort of expository context, Google Maps exists for a reason.
     
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  8. FactFinder3000

    FactFinder3000 Well-Known Member

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    I think he said it.

    ---

    However, few things annoy me more than when I use an idiom and then people try to claim I said something I never meant to say. It's a idiom. Here's a definition, from Collins Dictionary:

    blaze of glory: If you go out in a blaze of glory, you do something very dramatic at the end of your career or your life which makes you famous.

    There is no reason to think that AS was praising BS's actions. He was just using a common idiom. The words are not meant to be taken literally.

    idiom: an expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up
     
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  9. JuneBug67

    JuneBug67 Well-Known Member

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    BC has certainly well earned any cynicism it might have in this regard, but from an outside perspective I think things would have unfolded this way here too. The lack of an ID stalls virtually everything until it’s resolved, and foreign attention comes as a matter of course when a citizen has died. It’s when it went from a mystery to an apparent spree that everything went to 11 for the police and for the press.

    I absolutely agree that some crimes shock more than others, but I think they shock universally. These crimes aren’t shocking because they happened in Canada, and they aren’t not shocking because they occurred many hundreds of km away from the Highway of Tears and its specific and politically fraught history. They’re shocking because they happened at all.
     
  10. Curiouspersonxyz

    Curiouspersonxyz Well-Known Member

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    I confess that I thought it was somewhat outrageous to write about the grandmother’s lawn ornaments in a news article. And then I found myself trying to enlarge the picture to get a better look at the yard ornaments (and then stopped myself wondering why that was worth my time).

    I think that my behavior falls somewhat in the category of rubbernecking for me. And, unconstrained, this propensity could be seen as a “morbid curiosity”. I found this article very interesting and its explanation of the phenomenon helpful (and I am sure news and entertainment media really understand it as it drives clicks):

    But why would we look at content that clearly disturbs us?
    Eric Wilson draws on findings of biologists, sociologists, psychologists, anthropologists, philosophers, theologians, and artists in order to discover why we are attracted to morbid things. Wilson (a student of the macabre and the morbid) in Everyone Loves a Good Train Wreck concludes that “our attraction to the macabre is, on some level, a desire to experience someone else’s suffering.”Empathizing (while being physically safe from the situation) leads to the exploration of scenarios in which we could assess the dangers that threaten our survival, and leads to the sharing of feelings that the person on the screen is experiencing (death of a loved one, a natural disaster)” ...

    From
    The Dark Side of Beauty: Morbid Curiosity

    So when I feels some report goes too far, I can sometimes restrain my curiosity (e.g., I have not yet watched the 60 minutes interview). But then I find myself wanting to enlarge a picture of a grandmother’s yard ornaments as if I will get some insight from this (which I see as my own rubbernecking inclination). Even in perusing Websleuths I see the tension in myself between a desire to know details and gain understanding and what might be seen as engaging my own sense of morbid curiosity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  11. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    I think he said it too and they just didn't include everything he said in the video for some reason, perhaps an oversight or mistake. The news source that did the interview was reputable so I don't see why they would make it up.

    I don't think he meant to praise it either. I think he was saying that he thought Kam and Bryer's intention was to go out in a blaze of glory. As in, that is how they would see it, as most mass killers do. He even said in the 60 Minutes interview "there's no glory in what they did," which to me was indicating that he definitely didn't mean to sound like he was praising their actions.
     
  12. webbie

    webbie On Time Out

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    I feel your pain :oops:
    If only there were more of you sharing your point of view....
    Publishers do listen when they receive a significant number of complaints.
     
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  13. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    I feel the same way. Many times I have found myself wondering "Am I really doing a positive thing here by discussing this case? Or am I being no better than the sensationalist media vultures?" All the previous cases I've been interested in were missing and unidentified cases, and at least then there is the possibility of an "armchair sleuth" actually solving a case (in fact I've made significant contributions to two unidentified cases that ended up being solved as a direct result of the publicity they got on the internet). I've never had more than a passing morbid curiosity about the perpetrators of a case before. I have no rational explanation for why I am so obsessed with this case in particular, and sometimes I do feel bad about it. If any of the families found Websleuths, I don't think they would be happy about it, and I really hope they never do find it.

    But I guess I do have the ultimate goal of trying to make something good come out of this tragedy, which is why I've been talking so much about ways it could have been prevented. I don't know what, if anything, I can personally do, but discussing it is a start. I think my obsession with this case has continued because of my very, very strong feeling, which has only been bolstered by the evidence I've read so far, that it was a slow-moving trainwreck years in the making that could have been stopped if people paid better attention. And because it's just like, a microcosm of all of the problems I've been seeing eat away at our society more and more, and it's reached a point where I just can't watch it happen anymore without trying to do or say something to stop it. So for me personally I do feel like it's much bigger than just morbid curiosity. I've always been the type of person with a bit of a "save the world" thing and I guess this is just the latest iteration of it. JMO.
     
  14. JuneBug67

    JuneBug67 Well-Known Member

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    There’s no reason to think he didn’t say “blaze of glory”. It’s attributed as a direct quote, and you can see several cuts in the video where those words would have fit. They were congruent both emotionally and practically with the things we did get to see him say.
     
  15. sprucetip

    sprucetip Well-Known Member

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    Very cool, thx for sharing! Didn’t realize we only had one cadaver dog here. I’ve seen our local RCMP dogs in action, they’re amazing.
     
  16. Gina20

    Gina20 Well-Known Member

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    I have wondered if either one of this pair were facing homelessness in the near future. If so, that could explain why they decided to leave. The "long joy ride": what does it mean? No longer welcome at home?

    I never assume that people with means will help their children with vocational training or post-secondary education expenses. I never assume that parents will allow their children to stay at home while getting an education. I have seen students whose parents could have afforded to help them out without batting an eyelash, but wouldn't lift a finger to go with them to an open house day or even to arrange a student loan. Step-parenting situations seem to complicate things in some cases.

    Some parents still tell their children to get out as soon as high school ends. Others give their children deadlines to get on with their lives. BS wasn't living with a parent, and his school years had just ended. He would have understood what being homeless means.

    We've never heard if either of these two had any long-term goals of any kind. We've never heard if either one had been told to move on and move out.

    More things we may never know.
     
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  17. Esprite

    Esprite Well-Known Member

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    The articles are from 2016; so probably more cadaver dogs now.
     
  18. SiciC

    SiciC Well-Known Member

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    This whole comment was great. I found myself analyzing the "beware of your dog" sign in front of Bryer's grandma's home, even though it has literally zero relevance or importance. It's exactly why media outlet reporters take those sorts of photos, it feeds a curiosity and fascination that human nature will always have. The more there is to gawk at and talk about, the more we're going to gawk and talk. Therefore more attention and $ for these media outlets. It brings to mind the Casey Anthony case, how her parents were absolutely hounded by crowds of people outside their home, and hoards of media reporters literally camped outside their house with lawn chairs and big sun umbrellas day and night, just waiting to catch a glimpse of them, take every image possible of the home or the vehicles showing up, any little thing they could make a story on for people to gossip about even if it served no purpose to the situation at hand. It's probably been similar with this case, lots of media people hovering around their homes all the time.. Kam's father even attested to that in his short statement, that they were trapped in their home because of all the media people. Also that there's excessive no-trespassing signs on his property. It's always like this with sensational cases. I think we're all a little guilty of rubbernecking and morbid curiosity even if we try not to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  19. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Posted by @Cdndadeh on Thread 10 p.44 #874

    I worked as a locksmith for 10 years in my younger days... I can say with reasonable assurance that there are two Toyota keys at least one house key either a kwikset or weiser brand and the smaller keys belong to small cam locks they could be locks for a camper, mailbox, filing cabinet, padlock or many other things. But I would put money that those keys are Toyota keys!
     
  20. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    The word “Kudos” typically is synonymous with congratulating someone for an accomplishment. They were not featured on a surveillance video when it was reported they’d passed through the band constable checkpoint, if the reporting of his kudos comment is accurate. By that time they were already known to be in Northern Manitoba, having burned the RAV4.

    At no point was AS ever quoted he was overjoyed they were still alive and he hoped the two would peacefully surrender. He predicted from the very beginning his son would be found dead and that’s what I think is disturbing especially if B was aware of any of his dad’s media comments during his flight from police.
     
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