Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

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Wow.... this sounds like it could have been written about K&B. IMO
ETA: though I’m not sure how Kam and Bryer were “frightened or confused” while killing... especially Prof Dyck. Everything else sounds spot on for those two. JMO

Yeah I tried to explain what I thought the "frightened and confused" thing meant and I definitely see it in their case and think that they likely were feeling that way. But I still think it's weird and difficult for me to understand. Like, if they wanted to not be frightened and confused, they could just, you know, not kill people?!

But, of course, as non-murderers (I hope!) there's only so much we can viscerally get into these guys' heads to know why they were thinking a certain way at the time. I get the sense that they were sort of operating on their own system of logic which would not make much sense to the vast majority of people.
 
SBM
Admittedly, the “fear and confusion” part still sounds weird to me but I can definitely see them thinking murder would be similar to their video games. MOO

Assuming they killed Lucas and Chynna, the adrenaline could have wore off, and the reality of what they had done came to light. In turn they'd be feeling fear and confusion on what to do next. Like there is evidence in their vehicle. They can't take back what they did. That can cause a lot of fear and confusion.
 
SBM
Admittedly, the “fear and confusion” part still sounds weird to me but I can definitely see them thinking murder would be similar to their video games. MOO


I don’t think anyone of us knows what it’s like to kill anyone (um, I hope not anyway...)

So who are we to comment on that experience? It’s not any kind of stretch for me to imagine there would be a whole spectrum of emotions at play in that moment.

It’s a limit breaking experience that I doubt any of us will ever approach, or ever have (sweeping generalizations here, my apologies). So we cannot say what emotions could or could not arise. It’s divorced from any logic we can understand.

ETA: oops. @NJSleuth91 i didn’t see your above post and basically just paraphrased you! I guess this post can stand as a reinforcement of your own.
 
Assuming they killed Lucas and Chynna, the adrenaline could have wore off, and the reality of what they had done came to light. In turn they'd be feeling fear and confusion on what to do next. Like there is evidence in their vehicle. They can't take back what they did. That can cause a lot of fear and confusion.

I don’t think anyone of us knows what it’s like to kill anyone (um, I hope not anyway...)

So who are we to comment on that experience? It’s not any kind of stretch for me to imagine there would be a whole spectrum of emotions at play in that moment.

It’s a limit breaking experience that I doubt any of us will ever approach, or ever have (sweeping generalizations here, my apologies). So we cannot say what emotions could or could not arise. It’s divorced from any logic we can understand.

ETA: oops. @NJSleuth91 i didn’t see your above post and basically just paraphrased you! I guess this post can stand as a reinforcement of your own.

I mean, it kind of does make sense if you think about it. Like imagine a typical botched robbery where the robbers are freaking out and kill someone in a panic. They could completely avoid their freakout and other negative consequences if they just didn't commit the robbery. In many cases they probably aren't enjoying the experience either. But they do it anyway. And once someone crosses that line of committing to doing it, it can be very hard to snap out of it and stop it, even if part of them wants to.

It's a bunch of conflicting emotions at play. And who has more simultaneously occurring conflicting emotions, than disturbed teenagers? Kam and Bryer likely had a ton of built-up negative emotions and little capacity to deal with them in a healthy way, and this whole thing was probably some sort of explosion of extreme angst.

I saw a comment on this case elsewhere, where someone said (paraphrased) "I work with young adult offenders in the criminal justice system. Most of them cannot clearly articulate the reasons why they did what they did, and seem just as confused as anyone else that they did it."
 
The bugs eating them alive, no relief from the bugs, having to travel through basically swamp land, starving, thirsty...maybe they had wanted to get away, not commit suicide...but at that point there probably seemed like no other options left to them.
 
I was speaking more to the fact they actually took all their prized possessions along with them on the trip. That tells me there was no desire to return to Port Alberni. Those level of gaming PC's are investments. It's like owning a car. They're expensive and the PC gamers I know it's like the love of their life. I'm not a PC gamer, I'm a console gamer but I wholly understand the attachment. I can assure you, Kam and Bryer leaving that stuff behind was devastating in its own right. This tells me, initially, no murder was intended. They seemed to be intent on moving, finding jobs and having a life together. Something changed after they left. What that is or was we still don't know. We do know it was murder, we don't know why or what the catalyst was. I wouldn't call the burning of the Dodge and Camper "waving a red flag" or "come and get us." We don't know that. As I asked last night, why was Leonard left so close and visible from the road? Why burn the Dodge and Camper at all? Why abandon a classic pickup and effectively your home? There has to be something else, murder aside. I sense more fear, panic and hastiness than I would call it cockiness, confidence and taunting.

It would be interesting to know if they took their monitors as well. If this was pre-planned they could have taken their computers just to keep their hard drives away from police. An Adam Lanza type bid to be opaque and completely control the situation and narrative.
 
I’ve been lurking for a while, but I need to get something off my chest. I don’t think these two boys are guilty. I’m not suggesting it isn’t possible but there is way too much doubt.

For one, who murders someone, then torches their truck near the body, and takes off in the victim's vehicle when they are guilty? I believe these actions are of someone who saw something, was scared of something, or feared for their life.

Then we look at the suspects. We consider Kam. From multiple diverse sources, from different people, he is described as being kind, considerate and even at times, there for others. How does someone who is defined as being a good, kind person translate into being a perpetrator? Then there is Bryer. If he was such a disturbed kid, why hadn’t anybody done anything to help him. It was after AS interview that all of a sudden he was this odd kid, said these peculiar things. So what that he showed an interest in military and Russia. That doesn’t make someone a murderer.

They say there is evidence tying the crime scenes together. It was evident they were at Mr. Dyck’s crime scene because they had his car. But as described above, that doesn’t make them murderers. Remember, Kam was described as being kind and considerate from someone other than his family. What to say, he didn’t stop and offer help to Chynna and Lucas who were stuck on the side of the road? That could be the connection they had to that crime scene. And on the way to wherever they were going, it’s possible they could have run into truck problems since they were driving in an older truck. There is no service, so hitchhiking would be the only option. It’s very possible they saw Mr. Dyck deceased, freaked out and drove off. At the most that make them thieves, again a huge stretch for being killers.

I mean look at the surveillance footage. The look on Kam’s face was fear. Even Bryer was anxious-looking. Who knows what they were doing in the store. Perhaps they were looking for protection or figuring out what to do next. Remember these two are teenagers. They left with all their belongings to go look for work and probably to go explore, because well they are teenagers.

As for how they obtained guns? They could have gotten them at any time during their travels. Maybe after they were plastered all over the news as being dangerous. Everyone and their dog were looking for them. They could have felt like they had no way out, no one would believe them and didn't want to go to prison for something they didn't do. Stress could put them over the edge, hence why they had guns.

Then there is the long long delay since their bodies were found, and still no update. What if the guns weren’t used in the murders like they suspect?

Either way, I really hope for justice for the three families of the victims, and that they get the right guys. Maybe I’m wrong but there are way too many holes in the story, for me to believe these two teens are responsible.
 
Any particular piece of information that let to that speculation, or was it just a theory? I don’t remember reading this and I combed through all the threads with surgical meticulousness (but admittedly there’s so much in these threads I probably just forgot I read it :rolleyes:)
Some of us speculated too much about games and dams, since there are a few in Gillam area. But my reasoning was simple.

During their actual job hunting, they may have heard about opportunities in the Gillam area, from someone who went there from BC.
 
Yeah I tried to explain what I thought the "frightened and confused" thing meant and I definitely see it in their case and think that they likely were feeling that way. But I still think it's weird and difficult for me to understand. Like, if they wanted to not be frightened and confused, they could just, you know, not kill people?!

But, of course, as non-murderers (I hope!) there's only so much we can viscerally get into these guys' heads to know why they were thinking a certain way at the time. I get the sense that they were sort of operating on their own system of logic which would not make much sense to the vast majority of people.

I’m gonna go ahead and quote Mindhunter here:

“Let me tell you something about aberrant behavior. It's aberrant. If we understood it, we'd be aberrant too.”

Anyway, just gonna restate: the crimes, if they did them, are not something people in any sort of “normal” situation would do. Everything about this case is a aberration.
I’ve been lurking for a while, but I need to get something off my chest. I don’t think these two boys are guilty. I’m not suggesting it isn’t possible but there is way too much doubt.

For one, who murders someone, then torches their truck near the body, and takes off in the victim's vehicle when they are guilty? I believe these actions are of someone who saw something, was scared of something, or feared for their life.

Then we look at the suspects. We consider Kam. From multiple diverse sources, from different people, he is described as being kind, considerate and even at times, there for others. How does someone who is defined as being a good, kind person translate into being a perpetrator? Then there is Bryer. If he was such a disturbed kid, why hadn’t anybody done anything to help him. It was after AS interview that all of a sudden he was this odd kid, said these peculiar things. So what that he showed an interest in military and Russia. That doesn’t make someone a murderer.

They say there is evidence tying the crime scenes together. It was evident they were at Mr. Dyck’s crime scene because they had his car. But as described above, that doesn’t make them murderers. Remember, Kam was described as being kind and considerate from someone other than his family. What to say, he didn’t stop and offer help to Chynna and Lucas who were stuck on the side of the road? That could be the connection they had to that crime scene. And on the way to wherever they were going, it’s possible they could have run into truck problems since they were driving in an older truck. There is no service, so hitchhiking would be the only option. It’s very possible they saw Mr. Dyck deceased, freaked out and drove off. At the most that make them thieves, again a huge stretch for being killers.

I mean look at the surveillance footage. The look on Kam’s face was fear. Even Bryer was anxious-looking. Who knows what they were doing in the store. Perhaps they were looking for protection or figuring out what to do next. Remember these two are teenagers. They left with all their belongings to go look for work and probably to go explore, because well they are teenagers.

As for how they obtained guns? They could have gotten them at any time during their travels. Maybe after they were plastered all over the news as being dangerous. Everyone and their dog were looking for them. They could have felt like they had no way out, no one would believe them and didn't want to go to prison for something they didn't do. Stress could put them over the edge, hence why they had guns.

Then there is the long long delay since their bodies were found, and still no update. What if the guns weren’t used in the murders like they suspect?

Either way, I really hope for justice for the three families of the victims, and that they get the right guys. Maybe I’m wrong but there are way too many holes in the story, for me to believe these two teens are responsible.

Phew. Okay. First, thank you for speaking your mind and sharing your thoughts.

Second: I wholeheartedly believe that the picture painted of Bryer seemed like a media move, like a hunter pouncing on its prey. True, it was a dark picture just in the facts alone — but I have learned to take everything written in the media with a handful of salt. I cannot comment on who either of these guys really were, but I’m skeptical.

Third: the look on Kam’s face in the surveillance footage just looks haunted. Bryer to me, looks less affected, but dissociation will do that to you. And honestly, I think they just went in there to use the restroom. I don’t think it was nearly as dramatic as a lot of people here have speculated.

Fourth: they were not named suspects until after they were in Gillam. If they had procured the guns on the road, it would have to have been for reasons other than being frightened by the media coverage, which they likely never saw or heard. It’s possible someone else was involved, and supplied them with the weapons. But we can’t say that with any certainty.

Fifth: the “long delay” could be anything. I can’t even begin to speculate on that. New evidence discovered after the bodies were found, especially in their videos, could be adding additional hurdles. This is a really difficult case and I’m surprised the RCMP even said they’d update in weeks. This feels like a case that should take months or years to carefully examine in whole.

Or maybe it hasn’t been that long, and we’re all feeling too many feelings about it to realize that.
 
Fourth: they were not named suspects until after they were in Gillam. If they had procured the guns on the road, it would have to have been for reasons other than being frightened by the media coverage, which they likely never saw or heard. It’s possible someone else was involved, and supplied them with the weapons. But we can’t say that with any certainty.

I still think something happened at Mr. Dyck's murder scene, that made them run away. I've been researching and looking at every article and I just don't believe they are responsible.
 
This is a really difficult case and I’m surprised the RCMP even said they’d update in weeks.
That surprised me, too, and I imagine they now regret having said that. It's only because of their initial time frame that made me assume a report would be here late August/early September. Otherwise, I would have just assumed that it would probably be months before we heard anything, at the earliest. And I imagine that is true for many people.

Honestly, I've seen ostensibly much less complex cases need months. I can't even imagine the logistics of an investigation that spanned this great of a distance and just has so many seemingly odd elements. MOO
 
I still think something happened at Mr. Dyck's murder scene, that made them run away. I've been researching and looking at every article and I just don't believe they are responsible.

My mind often goes in a thousand directions thinking about this.

There are times when I really do believe they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. That “something” happened, and they, in a fit of pure panic, jumped into the RAV and sped off to hide from that “something”.

I mentioned earlier how all witness accounts said they seemed normal, or anxious, and quiet. Tommy, who pulled them out of the mud, mentioned he could not imagine them killing anybody. And Kam repeatedly apologizing at the checkpoint. They had ample opportunities to kill those people if they wanted to, and yet...

I don’t know. That’s probably the only response I can give at this point, I just dooooon’t knnnnoooowww anythinggggg. I really don’t.
 
For one, who murders someone, then torches their truck near the body, and takes off in the victim's vehicle when they are guilty? I believe these actions are of someone who saw something, was scared of something, or feared for their life.

For awhile I had similar thoughts. But it is possible they panicked, or maybe the death was an accident and they panicked. But I do believe they are responsible for Leonard's death.
 
I mean, it kind of does make sense if you think about it. Like imagine a typical botched robbery where the robbers are freaking out and kill someone in a panic. They could completely avoid their freakout and other negative consequences if they just didn't commit the robbery. In many cases they probably aren't enjoying the experience either. But they do it anyway. And once someone crosses that line of committing to doing it, it can be very hard to snap out of it and stop it, even if part of them wants to.

Not to mention the adrenaline one would get. When people are scared, anxious, they make rash decisions.
 
Question (I’m not sure if anyone can really answer, but):

When they were first declared missing, is it at all possible that the RCMP attempted to call them directly? Is this something they would do, or would they leave that up to family/friends?
 
Question (I’m not sure if anyone can really answer, but):

When they were first declared missing, is it at all possible that the RCMP attempted to call them directly? Is this something they would do, or would they leave that up to family/friends?

Very good question. I'd think they would try if family wasn't having much luck.
 
[QUOTE="Grouper, post: 15420407, member: 250682"

So who are we to comment on that experience? It’s not any kind of stretch for me to imagine there would be a whole spectrum of emotions at play in that moment.

It’s a limit breaking experience that I doubt any of us will ever approach, or ever have (sweeping generalizations here, my apologies). So we cannot say what emotions could or could not arise. It’s divorced from any logic we can understand.
SBM
Definitely I can say I’ve no personal experience on what emotions can play out while killing someone, so I’m not saying what can and cannot happen. To me, it sounds so odd to consider they were “confused” (I can kind of see fearful) while committing the act... mostly I’m referring to the Professor. Hard to grasp any of it at all.
Anyway I also get what you are saying. IMO
 
Question (I’m not sure if anyone can really answer, but):

When they were first declared missing, is it at all possible that the RCMP attempted to call them directly? Is this something they would do, or would they leave that up to family/friends?
That's a really good question. I honestly don't know. Though I would think if they weren't answering family calls, they probably wouldn't respond to a strange number either. (I certainly screen all calls and don't answer if I don't know who it is.)
 
Assuming they killed Lucas and Chynna, the adrenaline could have wore off, and the reality of what they had done came to light. In turn they'd be feeling fear and confusion on what to do next. Like there is evidence in their vehicle. They can't take back what they did. That can cause a lot of fear and confusion.
Very true, tho I was really only referring to fear and confusion while actually committing the act of murder, particularly on Professor Dyck.
 
Yeah I tried to explain what I thought the "frightened and confused" thing meant and I definitely see it in their case and think that they likely were feeling that way. But I still think it's weird and difficult for me to understand. Like, if they wanted to not be frightened and confused, they could just, you know, not kill people?!

But, of course, as non-murderers (I hope!) there's only so much we can viscerally get into these guys' heads to know why they were thinking a certain way at the time. I get the sense that they were sort of operating on their own system of logic which would not make much sense to the vast majority of people.
Absolutely I understand what you are saying and agree with all of it. I think “during the commission of the act” (think that was the wording) was what stuck out for me.... not any other surrounding events. But definitely we can never really figure out their logic. JMO
 
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