Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

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sandbar said:
Hi, I was one of the posters who was calling for cooler heads before proclaiming K&B guilty on the circumstantial evidence that we had prior to the report.

I was not troll baiting.

I was pointing out that I personally needed more info to judge K&B guilty. I "knew" there was more to know and I was trying to make the point that until the investigative report came out any judgement would be based on curcumstantial evidence. I am concerned (and maybe I shouldn't be?) that what I was reading on WS was coming from people who are potentially jurors and I AM FRIGHTENED to think of those people being responsible for upholding justice.

Here, in a forum, where there is no cost to slowing down, no cost to being level-headed (and, I might add, a perfect place to practice) what I was reading, for the most part, sounded like vigilantes and madmen calling for blood.

I haven't read all the comments since the report and I have only read the report once. Maybe others, like me, prefer to compose a response to information after receiving and digesting it and not prior.
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Really, all they had was pure circumstantial evidence until ballistics were done and a video confession was found, both of which didn't occur until after they were found dead.
 
So, a lot of folks have pondered the lack of further killings, and I think I can explain.

They were clearly looking to put as much distance as possible, as quickly as possible, between themselves and their crimes. Doing so would hopefully allow them to reach a place where nobody recognizes them or is looking for them. If they commit another murder, that just negates all their fleeing.

It likely did not occur to them just how huge this story would get. They were able to travel a long distance based on the fact that nobody they came across knew who they were. They were hoping things would stay that way. The further they got away from their crime scenes, the less likely folks would be to recognize them. If they committed a murder in Manitoba, that would just mean all of Manitoba might know who they were.

In the game "Grand Theft Auto," which they surely played at one point or another (it very popular), there is a "heat meter." When you commit a serious crime you might get 4 stars (out of six) on the heat meter. This puts the police on you. They start pursuing you and telling you to pull over type of thing. The way you get away is to drive as fast as possible without committing any further crimes (like running people over). If you drive for long enough without committing any crimes and without encountering any police the heat meter resets to zero and you are then ignored by police once again. So they were clearly trying to do this in real life.

Once they realized they were not going to get away they decided to kill more people before taking their own lives. It's just fortunate that they were not able to encounter anyone else to kill.
 
sprucetip said:
That is a bit of a stretch. She could have those for mere seconds. It’s quite a statement to speculate that she died slowly, that’s why I’m questioning it. I don’t think there’s enough proof to speculate on that.
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I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the victims suffered in the moments before they died.
People don't usually die instantly from gunshot wounds, as is frequently portrayed in the movies.

There have even been people who have been shot in the head who have survived.

Even suffering for two minutes in extreme pain seems like a long time.

IMO
 
I'm so glad we now know that the rear window was shot out because I've been a bit fixated on that window.

What I haven't read earlier on the thread is ...

Police today released this new photo of Sydney man Lucas Fowler’s van on the side of the Alaska Highway in Canada - shows his back window was shot out. But no blood was found inside the vehicle.

Alexis Daish (@LexiDaish) | Twitter

Based on that, my theory is that as soon as the window was shot out, Lucas and Chynna frantically escaped through the two open right-hand doors and started to run. The report said the autopsy on the couple determined some of the shots came from behind (I'm just floored by this) and could well be why Chynna's face was in such a state that she couldn't have an open casket. The exit wound is always much worse.

We know that Chynna was only wearing one shoe when she was found. The shoes she was wearing at the gas station were slip-ons which could explain why one fell off in her haste to get away.

Both families must be even more devastated to learn that they were killed this way. No words.
 
CinNC said:
More poor journalism from an Australian news source …

A man was driving west on Alaska Highway late at night on July 17, two days after the murder of Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese, when he pulled over to take a nap.

Within five minutes of parking, a truck drove past him and stopped about 45 metres ahead.

One of the teens — the witness is not sure whether it was McLeod or Schmegelsky — got out of the passenger side of the vehicle holding a long gun.

He walked towards the tree line and started moving towards man in a “tactical or hunting stance”, police said in the report.

The truck also started driving slowly towards the witness.

The witness quickly drove away, covering his face.

Canada killers’ chilling video confession
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Really!!! Could I refer you to the RCMP Report:

"On July 17, 2019, at approximately 11:40 p.m., a witness was driving westbound on Alaska Highway and pulled off the road into a pullout to take a nap. This was located approximately 30 minutes west from Haines Junction Petro Canada and 2 hours 10 minutes west of Whitehorse. Within 5 minutes of being parked, a truck with camper drove past him and stopped about 50 yards ahead. An unknown male got out of the passenger side of the truck holding a long gun. The male walked towards the tree line and started moving towards the witness in a tactical or hunting stance. The truck also started driving slowly towards the witness. The witness drove away from the armed male and drove past the truck. The driver covered his face with his hand and the witness was not able to see the driver’s face."

RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation
 
Bluedaisy100 said:
Maybe NJ or other psychological people can answer this: What was the dynamic between the 2 (most probably)? Leader and follower, equal partners. Folie a deux implies that one wouldn't have done it without the other. Wouldn't a psychopath pose a threat to another psychopath? Could it be a psychopath teams up with a sociopath (the less together, less organized one).
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Well the report said the police thought it was an equal partnership. And I think for the most part it was. I think all of their decisions were ultimately made mutually.

However I do think that in every friendship or relationship, there's naturally a more dominant person. And I think Kam was the more dominant person historically due to having more social and economic capital. Like, Bryer always went to his house, never the other way around. There are also signs that he was the more dominant person during the killings and escape. All the resources for the trip came from his family, he had the gun license (which most of us predicted), he was the only one who could drive, he did most of the talking to people they encountered...and of course he was the person who killed Bryer.

On the other hand though, it is possible that Kam took more of the lead on the road, while Bryer took more of the lead in the woods because he was more into the survivalist stuff. It seems like Bryer did most of the talking on the videos, from the description, although who knows.

I think basically their motive was rage, like it is for most killings of this type -- no cooling-off period (as we now know was the case due to the attempted attack on the 17th) and with the perpetrators having no previous history of violence. I think that this was an "extinction burst" of nonspecific rage at the world. And that's why their targets were random -- because it was the entire world they were targeting.

I also think for sure there was some weird militia thing going on. Like these guys really thought they were in some kind of militia of two fighting against the entire planet. But yeah clearly they had some kind of extremely codependent, "us vs. the world" dynamic. Even to the point of one killing the other in a suicide pact...the ultimate expression of codependency.

I guess we can't really determine whether there was some kind of shared delusional belief going on without seeing the videos. Because the "marching to Hudson Bay, stealing a boat, and going to Europe or Africa" thing sounds pretty delusional to me. But we don't really know how serious they were about that, or if they were just being dramatic or joking. From the way it was written in the report though, it sounds like the investigators thought it was serious? Plus a lot of their decisions in how they conducted this whole thing seem to be...extremely irrational and divorced from reality. Like, thinking they could go back and kill more people while there was a huge manhunt underway for them. But again, how serious was that statement, or was it more of a dramatic or expressing anger thing? Who knows.

As for the psychological profile, like the whole genetics vs. environment thing or whatever...I'm not sure we can conclusively determine that at this time. Clearly they must have had some kind of sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies going on. Which I think we all knew already. I mean you don't go around killing random people otherwise. But the question of whether they were "born evil" or if it happened over time or whatever...who knows. I think we definitely see some environmental factors that could have been an influence in turning them down the wrong path.

But if they were "born evil," it does seem weird that it's been two months and no information has come out about any previous history of violent or criminal behavior. Like, some people thought all sorts of dirt on them would come out in the report, even previous crimes. But the police said they haven't been able to find anything. In fact I haven't seen a single person say anything bad or even just non- effusively positive about Kam at all, either in MSM or elsewhere. That to me is interesting and, to me, indicates more of a thing where they "snapped."

The only thing is that one friend who reported them, which I think was probably one of their other three close friends. But since police said they found no evidence of planning or motive at all, I actually don't think that they leaked their plans to that guy beforehand, whether in the abstract or not. I think it's entirely possible that between the murders, they contacted this friend and maybe other friends and maybe made vague, weird references to doing something messed up. In fact we speculated before on whether the tip that led the police to consider them as suspects was something along those lines.

Generally in these kinds of killings though, where the person has no history of violence and there is no cooling-off period, there is some sort of crisis point that leads up to it. Like a confluence of factors that pushes the person over the edge from non-violent to violent ("grasshopper to locust transformation" as I've called it). I have my theories on what those were. I wonder if we will ever know.

My feeling on it though is that in many ways, they were psychologically similar to the Columbine shooters (Bryer being more of an Eric and Kam being more of a Dylan -- except in this case Kam seemed to be the more dominant one), which is why I keep referencing it. Of course they were way dumber than the Columbine shooters though. But anyway, sort of a weird combination of psychopathic tendencies, severe depression, rage due to feeling wronged by the entire world, and delusions of grandeur. Except the Columbine shooters planned their shooting (and failed bombing) for a long time and had a ton of leakage of their plans, and I don't think these guys did.

I wonder how planned this even was. I think it's entirely possible they only planned to do it a couple of days before they set out, because of how abrupt this trip was, how there was no evidence of pre-planning (I find it difficult to believe these guys would have left no signs if they had been planning this for a long time), how they didn't even get one of the guns until the day they left, and how poorly planned the whole thing seemed. Like it was probably something they were fantasizing about for years, but they only decided to make it a reality maybe a day or two before they set out, after they gave up on life. That's what I think anyway.
 
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NJSleuth91 said:
I feel like they might have said in the videos that was their plan?

I'm not sure why Kam would be the one to shoot Bryer, except that I think he was the leader and saw Bryer as his soldier or mercenary (as I've said many times even before the report came out), so it could have been an ultimate power thing.
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I don't think it was about power. I think he shot him so that Bryer did not have to do it himself.
Maybe Bryar could not bring himself to shoot himself or shoot his friend and Cam was the stronger one. In his mind it was probably a mercy killing. He was doing him a favor.

IMO
 
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Jan424 said:
I have said many times I was unsure whether this killing trip was entirely planned in advance or not.... Yet I always felt there had to have been SOME type of loose plan in mind regardless. Especially how soon the first murders took place once they hit the open road. I never felt they were at any time scared or confused after what they’d done or were about to do. Now I have zero doubt this was nothing more than a totally planned spree of thrill kills (even if it cannot be proved). No simple robbery gone bad, and they panicked, etc., whatever. But admittedly I am a little surprised at their absolute lack of remorse ( we’re not sorry, mom and dad, but here’s what we want done with our dead bodies), their bragging about the intention to take out more victims, their grandiosity and pomposity, and their encouragement to other potential, would-be killers. Those video tapes sound as though they are mocking everyone who views them. And, yea, these two were totally delusional. I don’t think I quite expected that.
The viciousness of the killings, especially what they must have done to Prof Dyck makes me nauseous. And the final insult to Dyck that they should record their asinine and dim witted commentary on HIS video camera. I suspected the RCMP had a great deal of evidence, and I’m glad at how much they were able to share. They are to be commended for a doing a thorough, excellent job with a very difficult, fast moving situation. I do have a couple questions.... any idea of who called the police suggesting Kam and Breyr could actually be involved? And any thoughts on their shaving comment.... heads, bodies? Just curious.
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I think it was a friend who KM and BS contacted while on the run (after they left PA) who contacted police. I think it was AS’s lawyer who referred to this person to be a male.

Someone else posted a link about suicide prep and hair removal. A part that stood out to me:

“shave excess hair from the body and wear cologne” on the “last night.”

Why do terrorists shave their bodies?
 
I’m unable to snip and quote from @NJSleuth91 ... but in reference to the militia aspect I think, IMO, that BS and KM may have tried unsuccessfully to recruit others to join them. It’s possible, again my own thoughts, that the person who tipped off the RCMP that the two were capable of murder was someone they had tried to recruit.
 
FactFinder3000 said:
They had the distinctively marked casing(s) at both scenes as well as Kam and Bryer in the murder victim's vehicle.
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"Based on the firearms lab results, similar offence pattern, timelines of suspects and admissions from McLeod and Schmegelsky, no other suspects are responsible for the three homicides.

I'll take the RCMP's official reasons as to how they made their conclusion.
 
MistyWaters said:
How could’ve police known the two were murderers when they were passing through the Yukon?

ETA -
“As part of the investigation, police spoke extensively with family and friends, all of whom initially refused to believe the pair could be capable of cold-blooded violence, describing them as “good kids”.

After their abandoned vehicle was discovered, McLeod and Schmegelsky had initially been described to the public as missing persons. But on July 22, a witness approached police and suggested the two might have been involved in the murders.

“This is the first time that police learned that McLeod and Schmegelsky may be capable of the murders which conflicted with original witness statements from family and associates,” the report said....”
Canada murders: fugitives who killed three planned for more victims, say police
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I am still catching up but I do wonder if the person that went to the RCMP suggesting these two could be capable of murder was actually AS?
AS seemed to recognize very early on that his son was very troubled.....he seemed to know that his son would be dead soon. AS was the person that talked about a suicide mission.
AS stated that he did not want to insult Kam's family and he indicated Kam supplied the guns and of course the vehicle and the driving skills.

Did AS perhaps talk to the RCMP in depth about Bryers' troubled upbringing and his possible anger at the world?
JMO
 
cartman said:
I’m unable to snip and quote from @NJSleuth91 ... but in reference to the militia aspect I think, IMO, that BS and KM may have tried unsuccessfully to recruit others to join them. It’s possible, again my own thoughts, that the person who tipped off the RCMP that the two were capable of murder was someone they had tried to recruit.
Click to expand...

But the police said there was no evidence of pre-planning or motive. If they had tried to recruit someone else, that would have counted as evidence of pre-planning, and they surely would have said something to this person about motive, while trying to recruit them.
 
JudgeJudi said:
my theory is that as soon as the window was shot out, Lucas and Chynna frantically escaped through the two open right-hand doors and started to run. The report said the autopsy on the couple determined some of the shots came from behind (I'm just floored by this) and could well be why Chynna's face was in such a state that she couldn't have an open casket. The exit wound is always much worse.
Click to expand...

Agree.

I've thought about this back window for some time now too. I always figured it had been shot out from the outside.My theory is similar to yours, that Chynna and Lucas were sleeping or just laying in the van when Kam and Bryer approached and shot the back van window while L & C were inside. I think L & C hastily left the van to escape and were then shot multiple times as they tried to get away. I think their bodies were re-positioned beside the van after they were deceased or severely injured & dying, just because of the locations and positions they were found in.

It's really scary to imagine. All this happening in the middle of no where, middle of the night, likely very dark surroundings (no street lights out there, and van was broken down). Just a confusing and terrifying event.. Stuck on the side of an isolated road at night and a team of gun toting murderers happen upon you... A true nightmare.

All just my own opinions
 
copkid said:
I am still catching up but I do wonder if the person that went to the RCMP suggesting these two could be capable of murder was actually AS?
AS seemed to recognize very early on that his son was very troubled.....he seemed to know that his son would be dead soon. AS was the person that talked about a suicide mission.
AS stated that he did not want to insult Kam's family and he indicated Kam supplied the guns and of course the vehicle and the driving skills.

Did AS perhaps talk to the RCMP in depth about Bryers' troubled upbringing and his possible anger at the world?
JMO
Click to expand...

I wondered about AS too but then I remembered an interview he gave in which he states the RCMP didn't contact him until a week after his son was missing.
 
FactFinder3000 said:
So, a lot of folks have pondered the lack of further killings, and I think I can explain.

They were clearly looking to put as much distance as possible, as quickly as possible, between themselves and their crimes. Doing so would hopefully allow them to reach a place where nobody recognizes them or is looking for them. If they commit another murder, that just negates all their fleeing.

It likely did not occur to them just how huge this story would get. They were able to travel a long distance based on the fact that nobody they came across knew who they were. They were hoping things would stay that way. The further they got away from their crime scenes, the less likely folks would be to recognize them. If they committed a murder in Manitoba, that would just mean all of Manitoba might know who they were.

In the game "Grand Theft Auto," which they surely played at one point or another (it very popular), there is a "heat meter." When you commit a serious crime you might get 4 stars (out of six) on the heat meter. This puts the police on you. They start pursuing you and telling you to pull over type of thing. The way you get away is to drive as fast as possible without committing any further crimes (like running people over). If you drive for long enough without committing any crimes and without encountering any police the heat meter resets to zero and you are then ignored by police once again. So they were clearly trying to do this in real life.

Once they realized they were not going to get away they decided to kill more people before taking their own lives. It's just fortunate that they were not able to encounter anyone else to kill.
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Thanks for the insight into the video games, it makes sense their strategies would be based on strategies they'd learning gaming.

It also explains why they didn't have an end game that makes any sense to us. It seems to me video games are carefully scripted to offer increased challenges after the gamer has passed each level. And those scripts can be pretty ridiculous: "hike to Hudson's Bay and hijack a boat", or "go back to the town and kill as many people as you can" sounds like the kind of instructions you get in a video game. So it could well be that BS's alleged wish to act out a video game in reality, might be a motive after all.
 
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