Found Deceased Canada - Mariam Makhniashvili, 17, Toronto, 14 Sept 2009 - #8

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Salem, Mar 11, 2012.

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  1. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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  2. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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  3. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Now this is interesting: the revamped W5 show on Mariam the "Tragedy" seems to have been taken down and the earlier version of that show "the Disappearance" (which I could no longer find when the "Tragedy" version which emphasized the suicide theory was broadcast) is now back up.

    Is it just possible that national media have gotten info that the Coroner is not going to agree with the police findings? In any case someone on the network didn't like something about that second show.

    I do in retrospect feel a bit bad for the suicide expert on that show I mean all she sees is suicidal teens and it must be hard to stay balanced yourself in your perceptions. Always good not to speak too soon though especially on TV.
     
  4. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Just to add now that they have restored the earlier W5 online and taken down the second "Mariam Tragedy" version they have added some "exclusive cellphone footage" of Mariam and her brother at the airport leaving Georgia. Bit of this have been before more extended here. Hopefully this link just posts the
    URL and doesn't bring up the page I will try.

    Only thing I will say at least while with her family, on video, for a shy person she holds her ground pretty well as someone watching video of her with me said she is always "coming at you" in the video but that "you" of course is her family not strangers in Toronto. It is interesting that she seems very much the centre of attention with others calling "Marika" (as in look here) several times rather than her brother (both in this video and others I have seen).

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/unsolved-mystery-what-happened-to-mariam-makhniashvili-1.728051
     
  5. outcast

    outcast Active Member

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    I think that these two buildings share underground garage.
     
  6. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    1. Outcast, thanks for this. It would be interesting to know if anyone noticed any unusual activities at or around the building last number of years the last 6 or so especially of course Fall 2009 to Winter 2010 (this is a broad topic as people of course sublet and there is the usual issue of delivery people and in nice areas apartments are left vacant for long periods of time as people have multiple residences etc). Possible there is someone of M.M.'s nat. living there who might be interested or have an opinion or anyone else.

    2. I am wondering if Outcast in particular or anyone else who was able to do on the ground sleuthing (however cautious and respectful) in Toronto regarding this case of Mariam found that there seemed to be people who were interested in what they were doing, who noticed or seemed to be observing them. It is easy to get this wrong of course, to just imagine it. But if true and if so it points heavily away from the suicide theory. It points heavily towards some organized activity of whatever sort. This is a bit of a dicey topic but even a yes or no would help.
     
  7. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    On this thread as poster M. suggested that the children were left behind in Georgia for safety reasons and the threat to the family whatever it was, caught up to them in Toronto. Possible, but tough to understand how if the threat was this severe and international (since Toronto surely was not the problem over all these years) they would be safe in Georgia with the grandmother and aunt.

    Some political aspect (internecine Georgian or international) is still possible however the problem is that it is the family who would have an inkling of this and yet they have denied it is likely or even possible.

    I do wonder about an element that is political in a symbolic way. The mother's name Tabidze is that of a major Georgian poet and author Galaktion Tabidze there is a decent Wiki article on him many Youtube videos of him reading all very laudatory and on a previous thread someone mentioned that his museum in Tabidze had been robbed/vandalized a few years ago. He had a very interesting not to say tragic personal history as well. There is a bridge named after him in Tblisi here is a photo of it hope it is ok to link to this if not please remove:

    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/72241415

    I do not know how close in Georgian the name Makniashvili is to Makashvili (they so seem like different names) but around 1918 when Georgia was briefly independent there was a Princess Mariam Makashvili married to a famous political leader Giorgi Kvinitadze (hope I am remembering this correctly) who left in exile to Paris and wrote his memoirs there in Russian and Georgian. Like the Russian, the Georgian community in Paris is VERY historically mindful there is a cemetery in Leuvilly sur Orge just outside Paris where many important Georgians are buried lots of fresh flowers on the graves etc.

    Apart from any possible genealogical link there is the issue of a symbolism that would be invisible to almost anyone in the world except Georgians they would know about the bridge of course and about these names, they would resonate.
     
  8. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    I found this deeply disturbing info. concerning a killer dumping evidence in this area, scroll down near the bottom of page - to page #53 to where Broadway location is described. WARNING, GRAPHIC , NOT FOR EVERYONE.
    http://www.shareaworksheet.com/download.php?file=433c564959050.pdf
     
  9. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Dotr for this link. Your link is very worthwhile reading for anyone on WS. Good reminder how many registered offenders there can be in a small radius and of course he wasn't on the list.

    Terrible to think that when Holly's family was just getting worried about her she was already dead and so utterly pointlessly.

    Mariam: though I do not think she committed suicide (I am more certain she didn't than when I first wrote on the thread) I am on the other hand not sure Mariam's case necessarily has a sexual element though obviously it could - it would be by far the most likely thing statistically once you rule out her family which the police did.

    Someone wrote a post here suggesting scenarios that gave Mariam more agency in her disappearance I think they even suggested money laundering, something like that - a bit implausible but the overall idea of agency has been in my mind consistently. Of course suicide would be an example of that but I am thinking of other things.

    The woman in LA Lela lived with and worked for said 'her parents had pinned all their hopes on this gifted child'. I would like like to know how gifted. It is an absurd question I know for how do you measure that at 17?

    (I knew a prof whose gifted son was recruited at 17 to work in Asia during the summer actually designing computer systems, he came second in a continental Classical language contest for all ages just studying on his own etc).

    I think I will just leave it at that for now - although we are allowed to bring up unlikely but still plausible theories here on WS I will just see if anyone else picks up what I am getting at. I do think she was gifted enough that she instantly hated that school here in fact felt insulted by it. I seriously doubt that she would be crushed because someone didn't like the style of her jean jacket or because she didn't instantly fit into some stupid clique.

    This scenario is that her disappearance had something to do with her mind, something that may have been noticed in Georgia in some test or other, or that became known through V.M.'s intellectual contacts. It clashes with other things I have said myself here re fashion, a job etc. but it has been on my mind from the beginning. Way back in World War II my father was directed towards another part of the army in Europe after an intellectual/psychological "test" which I think measured not just intelligence but other qualities like having a malleable nature etc.
     
  10. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    In some ways, MM and the Luge competitor opened the eyes of the world to the beauty (and perhaps plight) of Georgia, in a way that no amount of costly public relations ever could...
     
  11. bodhi93

    bodhi93 Member

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    Just read this and thought of MM... http://www.wheels.ca/feature/cyclist-spotted-on-the-highway-heres-what-to-do/...
    If a cyclist isn't allowed on the DVP, there's a good chance that would apply to the 400 series highways as well... And probably extend to pedestrians... JMOO

    I just can't understand how she could have walked all the way up an off ramp and then jumped... and no one saw her?????? I have a feeling we will never know :(
     
  12. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes he photo in your link is one more bit of proof how busy that highway is. Traffic is actually often at a standstill.

    Personally I think it would be useful to keep this thread going and examine the possibility, how slender it might seem to the police that something else happened to Mariam than what they have so far surmised. No doubt a lot of people were on the thread of course hoping she is alive and find it just too depressing to examine any further the circumstances leading up to her disappearance and what happened during.

    I do understand the police put two and two together - I mean her body was found under a bridge with injuries and fit the scenario of a fall intentional or accidental. But I would think another way.

    If it is impossible (as I think) that she jumped from the bridge and yet the injuries seem to fit the fall scenario of a fall and if (as I think) it would be difficult to stage a crime scene that passed a forensic examination and yet they managed to do so then two possibilities emerge: 1. that it is as the police describe that the impossible or implausible happened 2. that someone staged the scene in an unusually professional and precise way.

    I just noticed reading something today: when Mariam's brother briefly ran away Vakhtang, who as I saw it, apart from the violent episodes, always spoke incisively and very rationally said that he was certain a criminal gang had kidnapped him. It just struck me that is very interesting: so many months after Mariam was gone, after all the thought and action he must have given this that he was "certain" of it. The only thing I would add to that is that there are other kinds of gangs not just criminal gangs in the traditional sense. Because you have to think what kind of gang would want both Mariam AND George that leads in a certain direction. Of course thank God it was a false alarm.

    If only we could go back 3 years in time right now and change anything in Mariam's last two days of "Freedom" that would have assured her safety, just the normal continuance of her life.
     
  13. outcast

    outcast Active Member

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    Thank you to all of you who are keeping this thread alive. I am convinced that Mariam did not commit suicide. It just does not add up. Today is exactly three years since she disappeared, and I would like to commemorate this sad event. It was very nice sunny September morning three years ago. How could she walk all that distance without anyone seeing her? It is just impossible. If she took TTC she would be seen somewhere on the bus going north. I do not believe that she ever walked there. I think that she was either kidnapped or tricked to go in someone's car. It is totally possible, in spite of the fact that it was 8:30 in the morning during busy time around high school. No one really pays attention to what is happening around them. Especially not sleepy high school students.
     
  14. Claudette

    Claudette Oh, hello

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    Um...haven't read anything yet but they found her?! Oh my god...

    ETA

    I thought this was recent but it looks like it wasn't. I haven't posted much here but I've been following since the beginning. Will go catch myself up..
     
  15. outcast

    outcast Active Member

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    Well, given the fact that backpack was found in pretty busy neighbourhood, with high school across the street after more than three weeks from Mariam's diasappearance tells you something: people just do not pay attention anymore. Ol' little ladies with keen eyes are not around any more. It is just hurried and busy people not caring at all about what is going on around them. I strongly believe this is the reason why whoever had done this to Mariam, unless someone "talks", wiill never be caught.


    This is interesting question. I personally had only few direct encounters while sleuthing. One of them was when I went to library, but to my disdain they were totally not interested in answering my questions. Second one was when I was observing parking lot on south side of the school one morning around the same time when Mariam disappeared, to determine how many students really take the route that Mariam apparently took: one of the teachers ( I assume he was the teacher - he went into school ), looked at me in a kind of a strange way. There was not many of them at that time arriving to school, but all others did not pay attention to me at all, except for this one. Also, there was a little bit of awkward communication here on the thread when my motifs were questioned by one of the participants who also claimed to be neighbour. I cannot remember nick name, but if one goes far back at the beginning one could find this odd comment.

    I have to add here that I had a chance to speak directly with former VP at FHCI, whom I met by chance, and who also agreed with my suspicions that something more sinister happened here. He enroled Mariam to FHCI, met her personally, as well as her parents and confirmed that Mariam was very ambitious, well composed young woman, with high aspirations and obviously many talents, not only for math and science, but languages too.
     
  16. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Very heartening to hear about the encounter with this VP. It confirms my sense of Mariam in the fall of 2009 and in the media there had been at least one person from the school suggesting her and her brother with withdrawn and sullen - this matches much better Lela and Vakhtang's opinion and everything else we know about her.

    Yes I recall the odd interaction on a previous thread which was more about the Eglinton East location, the backpack area.

    I will just add this for now: I visited that neighbourhood several times this summer both alone and with others, my companions were professionals reasonably dressed. I and we did nothing that constitutes trespassing not even close. Even factoring out any possible overactive imagination I can say that I am certain that (IMO) there is surveillance by "somebody" (I really mean one than one person) in that area relating to Mariam's case. I do not think it is the police per se I mean Toronto police. I do not think it is a criminal gang per se.

    The same thing was true at least in spring 2012 of the golf course, around 401 and Yonge on both sides of the bridge and down to York Mills subway. Now that could be the police I don't know.

    If Mariam jumped or had an accident what would be the point of this? I knew someone who jumped from the Bloor viaduct and trust me it is something that everyone quickly tries to forget I think because we all battle with our own despairs at some point. It is now a MAJOR barrier in Mariam's case I think very very unfortunate to quote Joe Warmington (who I realize elsewhere was actually not so kind to the family) "I can't believe the police officer said that". There is some possibility that a clever Coroner will see something that was initially passed over. I know this sounds extreme but since the case is so strange I would like them to carefully examine how the DNA was collected.

    As for the school did go around that area but noticed nothing other than the graffiti on the back of the building Shallmar building "sorrow" which is a word Mariam's mother Lela used in media and quite beautifully to describe her emotion. And the strange situation of the little park in front of the school. I am now starting to get persuaded by Outcast that it COULD have been luring or kidnapping right at the school.

    What you say about the librarians at FH is interesting. I will have to check but I believe there is are large windows that face the school. As for the "teacher" I guess it is always possible (as with me at Yonge Eg.) that someone is finding our presence out of the ordinary! But still what you say is worth noting.
     
  17. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    C. It would be great it hear what you think. Even if you're not "caught up!".

    Thanks for the link to the Evelyn case which I looked at just a bit so far.
     
  18. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting very interesting link, there must have been reasons for backpack to be found near that location., Unusual connections far and wide in that diagram from top to bottom..does anyone know what it all means?
     
  19. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    OK it was uploaded 11/15 2009 three months after Mariam went missing. It was uploaded by "Robert Fridman".

    As I have said before this is Langer who was the mysterious good samaritan who bailed out Mr. M., who had Mr. M. live in he and his wife's house, and then was attacked by Mr. M. in circumstances that were in the paper but that I am not sure are accurate. At least it is the same name and also the same photo of a kind of fat guy in suit with a bar across his eyes that you can see in the W5 film on Mariam - this is not what Langer looks like however. Always possible it is an imposter though.

    What I would love to know is whether he was researching the building because of Mariam or whether he was researching business relations in the building and then the backpack incident occurred. I favour the first hypothesis (?) Do I ever wish Mariam's Dad hadn't lost his temper because this is very interesting stuff. I wonder why he was so mysterious with them however why not just say who he was and what he was doing - and what exactly was he doing?

    As Dotr says a strange brew of names and orgs. and places lots and lots of them searchable. Not sure how to proceed in terms of using WS on this. Obviously lots of these people maybe all come under the category "innocent" for our purposes. I have not been on WS that long so am unsure how to proceed maybe someone can advise. Some of this goes pretty far into the past and I have tons of material lots of it fascinating but fear it is too much for the thread.

    Beyond that, someone, a computer expert needs to see this or better yet if someone could contact Langer. I am not sure how to get him to cooperate at this point though. Though for all I know he is.
     
  20. Chorley8

    Chorley8 Well-Known Member

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    Aargh very off today correction uploaded two months after missing, one month after backpack found could he work that fast?

    Just adding: saw the show on Kingston Pen like so many others here and in the segment on Christine Jessop it was interesting that there was a PI working on the case so many years.

    I wonder if Mariam's case doesn't need this? They aren't cheap. Does anyone know who is paying the guy in the Jessop case I am not being nosey I just have no idea of how these things are financed.

    And then there is the fact that the guy on the CJ segment has come up dry after all those years.
     
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