NOTGUILTY Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by saqqara, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. ElleElle

    ElleElle Well-Known Member

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    To me, it is like a sick animal and needs to be put down. Insane? He was, and stopped taking his meds and look at the what happened. Granted, the chance of him ever killing again of even schizophrenics EVEN murdering (more likely to commit suicide) is very low.

    My point it, sure he is treatable but I don't think he even deserves a chance. There are 1000's of people with mental disorders that have no treatment. Let's focus on them, not an animal. JMO.
     


  2. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Let these doctors house him in their house. Then I say fine, let him out. And if they are wrong and he eats them, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.
     
  3. Montjoy

    Montjoy Inactive

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    I would house him, myself, based only on what I've read. Would I be nervous? Sure -- but I'd also be nervous about any other lodger I might take in.

    There is no evidence that he has 'eaten' anyone in the past. And it is indisputable that he is or was mentally ill. But the decision regarding his competence was not made casually, nor was it made by a layperson.

    I do not expect many people to understand mental illness, but I do hope that many educated laypeople might understand that this is definitely a case of acute mental illness.
     
  4. ElleElle

    ElleElle Well-Known Member

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    "Chris Summerville, D.Min, CPRC
    Executive Director

    As a recipient of mental health services, family member and self-help provider, Chris is the captain of the MSS team. You can tell Chris is a different kind of Canadian by his southern accent. Born in Alabama, Chris moved to the land of the Maple Leaf in 1985. He has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental health service provider through 40 years of professional work in Canada and the U.S. Chris has dedicated his life "to enabling the walking wounded to become wounded healers." Although Chris regards schizophrenia as one of the most confounding and wounding illnesses a person can experience, he believes that recovery is more possible today than ever before. He has an earned doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary and is a Certified Psychosocial Rehabilitation Practitioner (CPRC) with the International Association of Psychosocial Rehabiltation Services.

    He is also one of the eleven non-governmental board members of the Mental Health Commission of Canada as well as the CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada. "

    http://www.mss.mb.ca/staff.php

    Sounds to me like a psych with fluff, religious degrees.
     
  5. Matic

    Matic Well-Known Member

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    Indisputable as to whether or not he was mentally ill?
    How many normal people do you know that just randomly stab someone, decapitate them and start eating parts of their body?
    Sorry, I'm not picking up what your putting down.
     
  6. katydid23

    katydid23 Verified Juanette

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    There is 'mentally ill' and then there is 'profoundly mentally ill.' The level of grotesque violence that he acted out is beyond the beyond. That tells me that his 'voices' are not the usual ones that those with mental issues usually deal with.

    My younger brother is a paranoid schizophrenic that has been in and out of group homes. When he is on his meds, which he USUALLY is, then he is relatively fine. HOWEVER, when he is out in the community, certain things sometimes trigger him. And the delusions kick in. He is not violent, but can be dangerous because he 'sees things' that are not there---like spiders and snakes on peoples faces. He will mistakenly 'grab' someone to try and save them from the snake.

    And that is what worries me so much about this cannibal. If he gets triggered again, it will probably be a similar reaction on his part.
    JMO
     
  7. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he can move to your house then. Because I sure wouldn't want him anywhere near mine.
     
  8. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    And this guy might be fine when he is loaded full of meds. But a lot of times mentally ill patients stopped taking meds, either because of side effects or they think they got all better and don't need the meds anymore.
    Doctors observe him in a regulated environment where they monitor his med intake and think that he can be let lose on the real world?
     
  9. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    With all due respect - imo there is no way those that made the decision to set this person free will bear any responsibility if and when things go wrong with this person in the future.

    Do we know the names of the decision makers? If I could see those names in writing now, then maybe I would give a little credence to the decision. If their names are kept a secret from the public, I see nothing more than protecting a bunch of so-called professionals that stand up in court on a regular basis and give differing opinions on the same matter for money. In the mental health 'profession', there is never agreement what is wrong with a person or what the core problem is or what triggered a horrific action.

    The public is not assured of a long term solution here. Jmo.
     
  10. ebonydarkness

    ebonydarkness Member

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  11. Jennibee

    Jennibee New Member

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    Wow. I can't even believe they are considering this. Thank heavens I live on another continent to him.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  12. kmclaren

    kmclaren Well-Known Member

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  13. Rayemonde

    Rayemonde Well-Known Member

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    From link;


    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278
     
  14. Wondergirl

    Wondergirl Well-Known Member

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  15. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    I'm sad for the mother of his victim that she feels so gutted by the ruling.

    I disagree with her that someone who had untreated mental illness and while in a state where he had no ability to distinguish right from wrong should be in prison for life even if he gets treatment, the mental illness is successfully controlled and the person has demonstrated the ability to function normally in every day life.

    Mental illness is not like, say, alcoholism where someone can choose whether or not to drink. I don't know a single person with a mental illness, myself included, who was ever given a choice about having a mental illness. I am quite certain that if I had at any time in my life been given the choice "want to be mentally ill or not?" that I would remember the occasion.

    Most (but not all) mental illnesses can be treated and controlled. Someone whose mental illness has been treated and successfully controlled should, I believe, be able to lead a normal life.

    I know this is not a popular view.
     
  16. LietKynes

    LietKynes "What do you despise? By this you are truly known"

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    Just do not have the words......
    While I feel compassion for some who have treatable illnesses and have not perpetrated violence upon anyone... this monster should never have been released.
    The level of horror he inflicted on McLean is unimaginable.

    My opinion and I'm standing by it.
    I would not want this creature living next to me. Any missed meds on his part or something that triggers him--- who'll be the next victim ?
     
  17. Trvl4Lyfe

    Trvl4Lyfe Active Member

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    So if he is on meds and they are helpful for him, why can't he be made to understand that he committed a terrible crime so therefore he must pay for it. Why wasn't he treated before this crime, I guess too...
     
  18. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    Many/most of the Chinese cultures see mental illness as a huge stigma and so seeking out psychological treatment is not an obvious response to them. Another barrier would have been that, as I recall, he did not have high level English skills. He was capable of working in a custodial job but the language skills required for such positions are typically very low.

    One of the insidious things about schizophrenia is that victims often are not clearly aware that there is something wrong with their perceptions. It is often the family members of schizophrenics that get them into treatment because the person with schizophrenia often does not realise they need help. Pile that on top of being from a culture where mental illness is even more shameful and stigmatised than it is in the US and Canada and it would have surprised me had he sought out psychiatric care.

    As for being punished for something he did when in a state that he could not distinguish right from wrong...

    In 2005, I had necrotising fasciitis twice (colloquially called 'galloping gangrene'). I was in ICU for a total of 5 weeks, went through kidney and liver failure, and was then on the burn unit for over 4 months. At the beginning of the ordeal I was on a whole bunch of different drugs--antibiotics, anti-fungals, pain control meds, meds to raise my blood pressure and heart rate to the minimum needed to sustain life and probably some other stuff I cannot remember. One of the side effects was that I was hallucinating.

    It helped somewhat that my first hallucinations involved seeing animals wandering in and out of my room and the rest of the hospitals. I was in a major teaching and research hospital and logic told me that if there really were deer, raccoons, fox, dogs, cats, etc, roaming free, other people would notice them. I promptly let the nursing staff know because it may have affected what meds they were giving me.

    During this period of my illness, I did several things that could have harmed me without realising they arose out of the messed up state of my mind. For instance, one night I was in ICU being scolded while the staff re-established my 3 IV lines, and re-installed the naso-gastric tube (which was an ordeal every time). My room looked like a bloodbath had occurred.

    I was utterly confused because to me, it seemed like I was asleep and woke up in the middle of a conversation. Apparently I had been talking, responding to questions and moving my arms and head around as directed without regaining consciousness for about 15 minutes before I gained consciousness.

    After I explained to the nursing staff that I had just awakened and asked what had happened, the nursing staff was great. They were very reassuring, told me that some of the meds I was on did cause some people to have unusually vivid dreams or to talk in their sleep or sleepwalk but now that they knew this was happening to me, they'd make sure the doctors knew and changed my medications to try to keep it from happening again. And that I was not at fault for what had happened, nobody was because nobody knew I would be having this reaction.

    The doctor (a resident) was a jerk about it. Even after I told him that I had just woken up and had no memory of what happened, he continued to scold me, said things like "didn't I realise I should not attempt to get out of bed without asking the nursing staff? Do you realise you should never, ever try to remove your lines and if they are uncomfortable to tell the nursing staff?" etc. He just would not let it go, I was in a psychologically fragile condition and the ongoing harangue was more than I could bear. I started crying and couldn't stop crying for hours after he left and spent about 3 days apologising to everyone who came into my room for being such a nuisance, including the maintenance staff (because my room had to be deep cleaned due to all the blood I'd spattered).

    I felt especially guilty the next day when I had to have a transfusion because I'd lost so much blood--I kept thinking that the blood they were giving me could have gone to save someone else, someone who hadn't caused their own blood loss.

    Was that a fair way to treat me? None of the nurses felt so--they apologised after the resident left, assured me they were not angry with me and suggested that the resident may have been tired and grumpy from being awakened to suture me, so he was taking it out on me.

    I now feel the resident was highly unfair to me. I was on meds known to cause people to take action in their sleep, they knew I was hallucinating when I was awake, it should have been crystal clear to that resident that I was not responsible for my own actions. I'm sorry he had to wake up to suture me but that's one of the drawbacks of a surgeon's life that he had to have known about before he decided on a residency. Didn't he realise that I would much rather not have gone through the ordeal of having the 3 IVs re-established and the naso-gastric line re-intalled? And that I was on so many drugs that no one could predict what kinds of psychological reaction might happen?

    And he was right there when I suddenly woke up and was confused about what was going on.

    Should I have endured more scolding for something I did not consciously choose to do and was unaware that I was doing it?

    And now, after so many words, I have no more words.
     
  19. Crosby87

    Crosby87 Well-Known Member

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    The article published on February 17, 2017 in the National Post, said Vince Li has lived on his own for the past 2 years.

    Even though Vince ‘s name has changed, anyone who knows what happened and has followed his case even casually on the Winnipeg News would still be able to identify him if they saw him on the street or in a store.

    So, how doe WLB react when he is out publicly by himself and is recognized? Is he afraid someone will kill him ? Has he learned how to let the past go and remain focused in the ‘now’? Can he control his thoughts and strong emotions when they arise unexpectedly? Is this the purpose of the prescribed medication he is to take for his entire life? To control any and all outbursts? Have they done any clinical experiments to see how Vince Li responds when he is recognized and perhaps confronted by an angry person when he is out alone? Does Vince Li carry a cell phone for protection when he is out in the community? How is his English skills?

    When Li moved into his own apartment two years ago, he was monitored to ensure he was taking the drugs that keep psychosis at bay. Now that he's been granted an absolute discharge, I understand his medication will not be monitored. Absolute discharge = no conditions

    Because Baker “does wish to get on with his life,” pursue some education, visit family in China”, he might be unemployed and living in a low-income apartment funded by Manitoba Housing Authority. There are many buildings located throughout the City of Winnipeg. Vince Li worked as a part-time church janitor before he was arrested nearly 8 years ago iirc. I believe he was married with no children in July of 2008.

    Maybe WLB qualified for monthly Disability payments through the Government of Manitoba after he was incarcerated and he has money stored in his bank account. He doesn’t have a criminal record so he can obtain a passport and remain in China if he wants to leave Winnipeg, Manitoba and Canada permanently. Deporting him back to China would be a relief for Canadians imo. I suppose WLB is and will remain to be a legal Canadian citizen.

    Those who have come to know him, like Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada and executive director of the Manitoba chapter, believe Baker is a splendid candidate for success. He has done all he’s been asked, been compliant and co-operative, is so filled with remorse and sorrow about what he did he never wants to feel like that again, and most importantly, has insight into his disease.

    Although Summerville said, "Many people with schizophrenia, particularly those with the insight Baker is said to have, “quietly fade away into the night and live as good citizens,” but Mr. Summerville, how many people with Schizophrenia committed murder?

    However, as a 2002 article published in the British Journal of Psychiatry noted, “It is now accepted that people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be violent than other members of the general population.”

    And finally, it’s worth remembering that the jagged Canadian mental health care system did have an earlier go at helping Baker: As Vince Li, he was once briefly committed to hospital in Toronto years before his major psychotic break. And, as Summerville says, he was assessed, and started treatment, but “was allowed to leave the hospital too soon,” before the meds kicked in.

    Now, a different arm of essentially the same broken system has let him go: It’s hard to see it as anything but a leap.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...n-behind-ghastly-beheading-on-bus-is-set-free
     
  20. Arnie M

    Arnie M Well-Known Member

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    .

    This whole case is bizarre to say the least .... not only has he been set free but his record has been erased and he has a new name... previous to the Greyhound incident he had been on meds but stopped taking them .... then he murdered .... who is to say it wont happen again.

    I live 20 minutes from where it happened .... most of the gory details were not put in the newspapers ... during the lengthy standoff he ate part of the victim , including his heart .... and that poor policeman (who committed suicide) saw the whole thing and could not get it out of his memory.
     

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