Identified! Canada - Vancouver, 2 WhtMale Brothers, 7-10, "Babes in the Woods", Jan'53 - Derek and David D’Alton

[aThousandYearsWide]

<rsbm>

If we take the earliest date of the shoes being 1944, and the boys were aged 6 to 10, they would have been born approx. 1934 to 1938.

I wonder if Mission police records were checked for the names of any prostitutes.

Whether she had a job as a prostitute or otherwise, somebody had to be looking after the kids while mom was out working.

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Was pondering the idea that the killer of these two boys was either a single mom, or separated. If separated though, you would think a husband or an ex would have come forward. If the mom was from another province however, family may have just thought she went to Vancouver and they never heard from her again. Then I came across this info about women from other provinces and war-time employment in Vancouver:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tory.ca/story2.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca



There was no welfare in those days, so a mom had to either have family to support, or a job. Am thinking that the mom may have lost her job (and then her mind) and felt she could not care for her sons. Other co-workers and any child caregivers may have been told, or just assumed, that she had returned to the prairies.

You make some great points, there has to have been someone else in the picture regardless if she worked or not. Her children did have 2 different fathers, so she could have been married twice, and possibly left her second marriage, traveled to Vancouver, then found herself unable to care for her children. Or maybe she was widowed because of the war? That would make sense to why a father never came forward.

I highly agree that the mother was probably from another province, and her family just assumed she lost touch with them. My mother's birth father, the last time he saw his children was in 1963, and my grandmother moved away not too long after that. Sometimes this happens if it was a bad enough situation.

I believe this was a mercy killing, if she was a single mother who just lost her war-time job, what options would she have had in those times? It was definitely a premeditated decision. The murder weapon was a hatchet, and I doubt there was one just laying around Stanley Park. I see a scenario of someone who was really bad off, and didn't want her children to starve to death, and she didn't have enough money to travel back home to get help from family. So she brings her children to Stanley Park for one last good time together, likely a picnic because of the lunchbox found at the scene.

One question I do have is if someone else was present during the murders; I wonder this because she might have had to kill them one at a time, and the other one would probably have run away in terror. The bodies were found together, so was there evidence they were dragged? The main reason I believe this was a mercy killing is that the mother placed her coat over her children, which is a sign of remorse when a killer covers the face of the victims.

I saw somewhere the suggestion of checking suicides around the time of the murders, a murder-suicide is definitely a possibility. a woman who just murdered her kids, has no coat, one shoe, and no money has very little options. Someone would definitely notice her wandering around (the 1944 witness account fits this). The first babes in the woods case was in 1934 in Pennsylvania. In this case, it was a murder-suicide when the father realized he couldn't care for his family and didn't want to watch his children to starve.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/11/babes_in_the_woods_discovered.html

Both Babes cases have notable similarities. Both found in a park (Pine Grove Forrest Park in the 1934 case), both were murdered by a parent, both cases were half-siblings, and the time periods are close. A few things to mention about the 1934 babes in the woods case, the family wasn't in anyway close to home when they were found. They were from Roseville, California, which is 39 hours away from where the girls were found in Pennsylvania. Also, the father was known to have been a devoted father to his 3 girls, so the mother in the Stanley Park case could have very well been a devoted mother prior to hitting hard times.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Just correcting a typo- the 1934 babes in the woods case took place in Pine Grove Furnace Park, not Pine Grove Forrest.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

.
The main reason I believe this was a mercy killing is that the mother placed her coat over her children, which is a sign of remorse when a killer covers the face of the victims.

I don't think we should take it as read that this was a killing by their mother.

Firstly I don't think that just because they were covered with a woman's coat means that the killer was definitely a woman.

Secondly, it's possible that they were killed by a relative or other caregiver who didn't want the responsibility of [continuing to] look[ing] after them.

I'd suggest that a woman would be more likely to gas or smother children. Taking a hatchet to them is more of a man's crime.

In any event, I don't think we can say that even for a mother or other caregiver fallen on hard times there was no option but to kill children. During and after the war there were huge numbers of children who had been orphaned or abandoned and there were well organised services for taking them in and looking after them.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I don't think we should take it as read that this was a killing by their mother.

Firstly I don't think that just because they were covered with a woman's coat means that the killer was definitely a woman.

The main assumption that the killer was the mother was due to a woman's shoe and woman's coat being found at the scene, but I completely agree, we don't know for sure the perpetrator was a woman; however, I think the several witness sightings of a mother and two children further lead to this assumption. The shoe and the coat put a women at the scene, but that doesn't mean she was involved anymore than being a horrified witness. The lost shoe could be evidence of a struggle, maybe she was a victim herself.

I'd suggest that a woman would be more likely to gas or smother children. Taking a hatchet to them is more of a man's crime.

You make a good point about generally a killing by a hatchet is considered more of a man's crime (aside from Lizzie Borden), and I've wondered if whoever killed the boys acted alone, or was alone at the time of the killing. I've also considered the circumstance that the father/mother's boyfriend killed the boys, the mother fled and lost a shoe, then he killed her and disposed of her elsewhere.
Another theory about the killer being the father- since the boys were half-brothers, maybe the father found out one of his sons was the result of an affair, kills them, and then the mother. Was there any unidentified female remains found in Vancouver during this time-frame?

In any event, I don't think we can say that even for a mother or other caregiver fallen on hard times there was no option but to kill children. During and after the war there were huge numbers of children who had been orphaned or abandoned and there were well organised services for taking them in and looking after them.

I wonder if they found any evidence from the boys remains about their health while they were alive, I mean like if they were neglected, abused, malnourished, etc. This could possibly shed some light on their family's status prior to their deaths.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I found an older thread for this case- http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-amp-69UMBC-7-10-Jan-53&highlight=babes+woods
They have theories that a male was the killer, that the mother was a witness who was later killed, and even some posts from a retired investigator who worked the case. He is adamant the killer was probably the mother; however, I am currently wondering if the mother was a victim herself.

 

[Cherchri]

The talented Kat Thorsen has published an online graphic novel. Kat was a researcher on this case in 2003. She looked into suicides of young women in Vancouver around the possible time of the little boys' murders and so began her investigations into "Molly". A fascinating journey which you can follow on this link: https://mollygraphicnovel.com/. If the deaths occurred as early as 1944 then Molly could not possibly have been involved. If, however, the deaths occurred in 1947 then there is a very real possibility. Either way - I find Kat's work fascinating.

 

[sonz82]

Have the Klein brothers been looked at?
Daniel, David and Kenneth. It's possible one of the boys was never found.
However, they were last seen in Minnesota not Canada.

 

[dotr]

Oct 6 2018
CRIME HUNTER: Giving names and justice to the Jane and John Does
There are numerous websites, like the Doe Network that chronicle these lost souls.

The busts of the babes in the Woods murder victims in Vancouver. Sixty-five years later, their identities are known only to God. POSTMEDIA

The basics are there: where, when, and how. Often these slivers of information are accompanied by facial reconstructions that could be called unfortunate at best.

Ten minutes on the Doe Network and if you aren’t chilled to the bone then either you’re hardened beyond belief or you simply don’t have a heart.

In this country, British Columbia’s Babes in the Woods from 1953 and eastern Ontario’s Nation River Lady from the 1970s are two of the best known unidentified cases.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

How DNA techniques could identify the young victims in Vancouver’s longest-running cold case



Detectives now believe that new DNA techniques could hold the key to identifying the bodies of two young children that were found in Stanley Park in 1953.

In the mid-90s, there was a flurry of activity on the case when Brian Honeybourn took on the file after he joined the Unsolved Homicide Unit of the Vancouver Police Department.

Honeybourn sent bone and teeth samples for DNA analysis by Dr. David Sweet, a forensic dentist at the University of British Columbia. The results revealed there was a lot of incorrect information on file – most notably, that the bodies were actually of two boys, not a boy and a girl.

The development produced more tips to police, all of which led to dead-ends.

There is however a long-running working theory that their mother was somehow involved in their deaths. It’s thought identifying the boys could lead to a trail of evidence that may provide more detail.

 

[K&R♡ Never forgotten]

aThousandYearsWide, thanks for posting this. I have been reading the blogspot site along with the comments and while reading, I read about two older boys (13 y.o.) who ran away from a foster home and were murdered and found in Stanley Park, circa 1989 and their case is The Hunter Murders.

This case is so heartbreaking and I pray they get their names back.

Godspeed sweet angels :angel: :angel:

The only description I remember hearing about this lead was that she had red hair, but I may be mistaken. I don't think investigators are following that lead anymore, I just found this article-> Murder, Mystery and Intrigue in Review: Babes in the Woods - Vancouver Police Museum from 2014 that says he's investigating an even earlier lead from 1944, after he discovered the style of shoe the boy'a were found wearing was available earlier then previously expected.

The current lead being followed by investigators:
&#8220;In May 1944, there was a sailor from Esquimault and his fiancée walking along the seawall when a woman crashed out of the bush in front of them, wearing just one shoe and no coat, and letting out a guttural sound, according to the report at the time. She took off running.&#8221; from New clues may revive 60-year-old ‘Babes in the Woods’ case





You're welcome U2forever! I have been interested in this case since I saw it featured on Cold Case Files ("The Skulls of Stanley Park", Season 1:Episode 5) Here's a script of the episode: http://mreplay.com/transcript/cold_case_files-(the_hunter_homicides;_the_skulls_of_stanley_park)/612/KICU/Monday_September_21_2009/86448/ The episode also features the two 13 year olds missing in 1989, their names were Ramsey Rioux and Kenneth Lutz.

Photo of Rioux, couldn't find one of Lutz

This article mentions them along with the 1953 case. In the shadows: The darker side of Stanley Park

 

[K&R♡ Never forgotten]

I MAY BE ABLE TO FIND A COUPLE PHOTO'S IN MY ALBUMS OF KEN AND RAMSEY.♡

 

[MadMcGoo]

I hope these boys are able to get their names back (at least) someday!

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

"Vancouver – Vancouver Police think modern science could provide new clues in one of the city’s oldest unsolved murders, and hope DNA from the victims can lead to a break in the case, which has puzzled investigators for nearly 70 years."

VPD hopes genealogical testing can help solve cold case | Vancouver Police Department

VPD has contracted Redgrave Research Forensic Services, a Massachusetts-based forensic genetic genealogist company, to study DNA recently extracted from the victims’ bones. Using public DNA databases, such as GEDmatch and FamilyTreeDNA, Redgrave Research hopes to identify living relatives who share the same DNA as the murder victims. They’ll do so by comparing the DNA from the victims to people who have submitted their DNA to private companies to learn about their own ancestry.

 

[ntt1]

Amazing news! Excited to see whether this leads to anything.

 

[LadyL]

Modern science could help solve one of Vancouver’s oldest cold cases: Babes in the Woods

 

[dotr]

May 18 2021
''Vancouver police hope a Massachusetts-based forensic genetic genealogist can help unearth clues around the mysterious Babes in the Woods murders, two boys whose bodies were found in 1953, around five years after they had been murdered.''

 

[dotr]

3 page article today..
He worked on Toronto’s Christine Jessop killing. Now, he’s taking on Vancouver’s 70-year-old ‘Babes in the Woods’ murder mystery

''He worked on Toronto’s Christine Jessop killing. Now, he’s taking on Vancouver’s 70-year-old ‘Babes in the Woods’ murder mystery
DQ
By Douglas QuanVancouver Bureau
Sat., June 12, 2021
Inside Anthony Redgrave’s office in a former shoe factory in Orange, Mass., a map of North America hangs on a wall dotted with pins, reflecting cold cases he and his team have helped to solve or that they are investigating.

Redgrave is not your typical criminal investigator. He has no badge nor any background in criminology.''

Vancouver police employ genetic genealogy on 'Babes in the Woods' cold case
May 18, 2021
''Now the VPD is pinning its hopes on advanced DNA testing and tracing.

“We are hoping with the help of the Redgrave team, we will finally be able to put a name to these boys who were discovered and potentially identify the person who killed them,” Addison said.

Redgrave Research specializes in identifying victims of crime through genetic genealogy. After obtaining a DNA profile from the deceased, the team searches public databases linked to genealogy websites like Ancestry.com and 23 and Me to find close and distant relatives.

“What we will end up receiving is the full genetic sequence of both of the boys, and be able to not only ID them or an immediate relative, but be able to find people who share genetic material back as far back as the sixth cousin level,” said company founder Anthony Redgrave.

He says these types of searches are different for young children.

“It’s harder to find proof of life activity for a child than an adult, so we are more likely to be able to ID the mother of these children than we are to find their names, unless they have a filed birth certificate that happens to be turned up by traditional means.”

Because the boys weren’t reported missing and were found covered by a woman’s coat with a picnic basket nearby, Redgrave says, “it is highly possible the killer of these boys was either a parent or someone who was close with one of the parents, so knowing who they are would go a long way in being able to ID who killed them.”

 

[Snoop Sister]

How DNA techniques could identify the young victims in Vancouver’s longest-running cold case

View attachment 153580

Detectives now believe that new DNA techniques could hold the key to identifying the bodies of two young children that were found in Stanley Park in 1953.

In the mid-90s, there was a flurry of activity on the case when Brian Honeybourn took on the file after he joined the Unsolved Homicide Unit of the Vancouver Police Department.

Honeybourn sent bone and teeth samples for DNA analysis by Dr. David Sweet, a forensic dentist at the University of British Columbia. The results revealed there was a lot of incorrect information on file – most notably, that the bodies were actually of two boys, not a boy and a girl.

The development produced more tips to police, all of which led to dead-ends.

There is however a long-running working theory that their mother was somehow involved in their deaths. It’s thought identifying the boys could lead to a trail of evidence that may provide more detail.

The latest in this case of the half brothers - Babes in the Woods.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/lakehead-dna-lab-babes-in-the-woods-case-1.6091006
It was rather odd that the guy who discovered the bodies went home afterward and did not report finding the remains until the following day.

 

[Snoop Sister]

In previous posts it was stated there was a lunch kit with the remains, however in the Vancouver Police video, the officer stated it was an old picnic basket. Also, the coat was described as a fur jacket. (Not sure of the date of this video - but is more descriptive of items found).

Also, I can’t believe that Honeybourne and Sweet only “kept part of each remains as biological samples for court purposes” and cremated the rest!

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

The latest in this case of the half brothers - Babes in the Woods.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/lakehead-dna-lab-babes-in-the-woods-case-1.6091006
It was rather odd that the guy who discovered the bodies went home afterward and did not report finding the remains until the following day.

From the article,

"Redgrave said it's unlikely they will find birth records for the two young boys, but he hopes to identify the mother and both fathers of the half-siblings."

I wonder why it's unlikely to find birth records.