Casey & Family Psychological Profile #6

Status
Not open for further replies.

cajun

Active Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
4,261
Reaction score
9
This is what the insanity plea looks like to me.

Let's pretend -

I'm the same me as I've always been, no criminal record. Upon entering my own home, I find someone holding my child hostage or molesting him/her. Before I can think of what to do, I pull out my gun and shoot him dead.

I would then plead, "guilty by means of insanity".

In that scenario I would plead not guilty. We have Castle Doctrine law and I am within my rights to blow them away and on a side note, it would never make it to trial anyway because I have a right to defend me and mine on my own property.:)
 

gryphon

Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
61
Reaction score
0
Criteria for a Dissocial personality disorder set forth by World Health Organization

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6. Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
7. Persistent irritability.

I think KC fits these terms pretty much making her a textbook case.

Dr Robert D. Hare (criminal psychologist) has set forth some more criteria that KC fits. Based on antisocial personality disorder

Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
Glibness/superficial charm
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Conning/manipulative
* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Shallow affect
* Callous/lack of empathy
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle"
* Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
* Parasitic lifestyle
* Poor behavioral control
* Promiscuous sexual behavior
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility
* Juvenile delinquency
* Early behavior problems
* Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor
* Many short-term marital relationships
* Criminal versatility

the above exerted from various articles on wikipedia
 

grammieto5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
4,354
Reaction score
3,551
I've been thinking for a few days KCs' defense will be multiple personalities, and Zanny will be the one who killed Caylee.
 

BellaPhia

New Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
169
Reaction score
0
I've been thinking for a few days KCs' defense will be multiple personalities, and Zanny will be the one who killed Caylee.

Right on Grammie....I would have to agree. If its true or not...I dont know, but I have a feeling thats what is going to happen.
 

tzee

New Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
54
Reaction score
0
First off to claim insanity KC would have to admit she did it which will never happen. The legal definition of insanity would not apply in this case because an insane person does not know what they are doing is wrong, KC obviously did as she went to great lengths to cover it up. She definatley does not qualify nor would her defense team be able to introduce this defense at this time...that ship sailed a long time ago!! She no doubt is a sociopath and has narcisstic tendancies but those are personality disorders...not metal illness. Let's not confuse the 2.
 

butwhatif?

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
3,598
Reaction score
36
I'm starting to wonder if an insanity defense is in the works now.

With the leaked memo mentioning mental illness being linked to infantcide, GA's suicide threat/attempt, The A's delaying their depos due to their mental health issues, and LA's at times bizarre reactions and answers in his depo.(Which can be a common trait with mental illness).

It would strengthen an insanity defense, or the juries belief she has an illness if other family members have mental illness, since it often runs in families.
Then we have Kio saying KC would forget things they had discussed ans definately had a mental illness- sounds like she's paving the way for a DID defense....which absolutely will not work. Too many people have tried and failed.

And we also have the statements about KC wanting to institutionalise herself, then changing her mind.
When you put all these things together, its going to be used at trial, and she could come out looking better, by not trying to cop out using an insanity defense.The assumption will be there already for the jury, that she's one very messed up gal.

Now, if KC is deemed to have a mental illness, that does not make her insane. It's only going to shave a few years of her sentence, if at all.
The thing is, and I know many people wont agree, that if she truely does have a mental illness/personality disorder, PPD- whatever, I think it needs to be brought up at trial.

We need to understand what makes these things happen, and how we can stop it happening again. Its about the bigger picture....to protect the ones that can still be protected..
JMO
 

Themis

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,284
Reaction score
0
For a discussion on the insanity defense, as opposed to the presence of a mental illness, it is helpful to examine the basic law in Florida on the insanity defense.

Here's the Florida Supreme Court working on the jury instructions for the insanity defense.

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/probin/sc05-1622_Report.pdf


Here's the Florida statute on the insanity defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0775/SEC027.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0775-%3ESection%20027



The 2008 Florida Statutes
600x3_gradient.gif


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 775
DEFINITIONS; GENERAL PENALTIES; REGISTRATION OF CRIMINALS
View Entire Chapter[SIZE=-1]
775.027 Insanity defense.--
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.--All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when:
(a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection. (2) BURDEN OF PROOF.--The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence. History.--s. 1, ch. 2000-315. [/SIZE]
 

gardenhart

New Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
814
Reaction score
0
For a discussion on the insanity defense, as opposed to the presence of a mental illness, it is helpful to examine the basic law in Florida on the insanity defense.

Here's the Florida Supreme Court working on the jury instructions for the insanity defense.

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/probin/sc05-1622_Report.pdf


Here's the Florida statute on the insanity defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0775/SEC027.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0775-%3ESection%20027



The 2008 Florida Statutes
600x3_gradient.gif


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 775
DEFINITIONS; GENERAL PENALTIES; REGISTRATION OF CRIMINALS
View Entire Chapter[SIZE=-1]
775.027 Insanity defense.--
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.--All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when:
(a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection. (2) BURDEN OF PROOF.--The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence. History.--s. 1, ch. 2000-315. [/SIZE]

Thank you posting this, Themis. Now, if everyone will just read it ...

I just did a little googling. Less than 1 percent of defendants in the US plead insanity. Most of those - about 60-70% - are for crimes other than murder. And only about 20% of that 1 percent, about one/fifth of 1 percent, actually succeed.

According to one article, those who do succeed may actually end up spending more time in a mental institution than they would have served in prison since they can't be released until they're deemed no danger to society.

And I found this on how it applies to sociopaths or psychopaths.

When most people hear about the insanity defense, they automatically assume that it can be used applied to people commonly referred to as psychopaths and sociopaths. While traditionally there has been a small degree of difference between these two classifications, the American Psychiatric Associations most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual—Fourth Edition ("DSMIV") groups sociopathy and psychopathy under the heading "antisocial personality disorder." The DSM-IV lays out a limited and concise set of diagnostic criteria on which to base the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.

According to the DSM-IV, antisocial personality disorder is characterized by pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others occurring since age 18, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others; (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or to honor financial obligations; (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to, or rationalizing, having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

However it is defined, many in the legal community doubt whether the insanity defense covers this kind of behavior at all. The ALI's Model Penal Code test of insanity states that "the terms mental disease or defect do not include an abnormality that is manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct." In other words, the criteria laid down by the DSMIV for antisocial personality disorder would not allow for a claim of insanity under the Model Penal Code, the most widely used insanity test, or in other insanity tests used by states. Thus, sociopaths and psychopaths, while perceived as insane by most people, could likely not use the insanity defense as a defense in a court of law.

For this reason, most celebrated serial killers such as John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy, as well as persons whose mental stability seems to be of a questionable nature, such as Ted Kaczynski, have seen their insanity pleas fail or have never used the defense. In fact, in recent years, only Hinckley and Bobbitt are among celebrated cases who have used the defense successfully. For criminals with antisocial personality disorder, the insanity plea simply does not apply.
 

Themis

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,284
Reaction score
0
Thank you posting this, Themis. Now, if everyone will just read it ...

I just did a little googling. Less than 1 percent of defendants in the US plead insanity. Most of those - about 60-70% - are for crimes other than murder. And only about 20% of that 1 percent, about one/fifth of 1 percent, actually succeed.

According to one article, those who do succeed may actually end up spending more time in a mental institution than they would have served in prison since they can't be released until they're deemed no danger to society.

And I found this on how it applies to sociopaths or psychopaths.
Excellent post, Gardenhart. :book::read::clap:
 

OneLostGrl

I'm going against the grain- I'm going sane
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
14,316
Reaction score
24
For a discussion on the insanity defense, as opposed to the presence of a mental illness, it is helpful to examine the basic law in Florida on the insanity defense.

Here's the Florida Supreme Court working on the jury instructions for the insanity defense.

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/probin/sc05-1622_Report.pdf


Here's the Florida statute on the insanity defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0775/SEC027.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0775-%3ESection%20027



The 2008 Florida Statutes
600x3_gradient.gif


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 775
DEFINITIONS; GENERAL PENALTIES; REGISTRATION OF CRIMINALS
View Entire Chapter[SIZE=-1]
775.027 Insanity defense.--
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.--All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when:
(a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection. (2) BURDEN OF PROOF.--The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence. History.--s. 1, ch. 2000-315. [/SIZE]

Thank you posting this, Themis. Now, if everyone will just read it ...

I just did a little googling. Less than 1 percent of defendants in the US plead insanity. Most of those - about 60-70% - are for crimes other than murder. And only about 20% of that 1 percent, about one/fifth of 1 percent, actually succeed.

According to one article, those who do succeed may actually end up spending more time in a mental institution than they would have served in prison since they can't be released until they're deemed no danger to society.

And I found this on how it applies to sociopaths or psychopaths.

I wanted to thank you both for providing links to facts about the insanity defense. You cannot begin to imagine how difficult it has been for me to stay away from this thread. People are so misinformed about mental illness (including personality disorders) and how it relates (or doesn't!) to the legal term "insanity".

Casey Anthony is not insane- not even close... and an insanity defense won't even make it through the doors of that courthouse.
 

Themis

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,284
Reaction score
0
I wanted to thank you both for providing links to facts about the insanity defense. You cannot begin to imagine how difficult it has been for me to stay away from this thread. People are so misinformed about mental illness (including personality disorders) and how it relates (or doesn't!) to the legal term "insanity".

Casey Anthony is not insane- not even close... and an insanity defense won't even make it through the doors of that courthouse.
Thank you, OneLostGirl. I agree. An insanity defense won't fly.
 

EchointheDark

New Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
140
Reaction score
1
I have believed she is mentally unstable, from the time I watched her, wearing the blue hooded sweatshirt, that she bought with Amy's money, being led into custody, with such a deranged wide-eyed look on her face. Everytime I see it I have the same feeling......Detached & Deranged, it makes my blood run cold!

A different slant, perhaps, but when I see that clip, of KC wearing the grifted blue hoody, in court, in cuffs, I see that wide-eyed look as aroused, like she just been eyeing up some hot cop, never mind she's in cuffs. I see predatory female in that face, more than deranged.
 

Whisperer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
17,543
Reaction score
72
IMO, they are working on this as I post. They are going to say she has an alternate ego and her family is laying the groundwork for it. If this case goes to trial...I know she does not fit the legal criteria for "insanity", but I still think her defense will bring a form of it to the court to think about, at least in the sentencing phase.
 

Whisperer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
17,543
Reaction score
72
I do want to clarify something about my opinion of the insanity defense. I am strongly against any psych defense brought into the courtroom. I do not think psych expert witnesses are useful and their purpose only muddies the waters. IMO a jury can tell whether a person is insane by the behavior at the time of the crime.

An example which happens to be true: A young man murders his family....when the police arrive, he is hanging upside down in a tree, claiming to be a vampire. Clearly, the jury would know he is insane. He was sentenced to life but did not get the DP due to this obvious behavior at the crime scene. A psychiatrist was not necessary to point this out. I think sentencing should be based on the observed behavior at the time and if it stands as obviously insane, it does not need clarification by a Dr.

Of course, these observations are made because the LE arrived shortly after the crime occurred. In cases where the crime was hidden, it shows consciousness of guilt, thus no "insanity plea"
 

yolorado

New Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
2
I agree but you're missing a couple of points. She was a pathological liar and lived in a fantasy world. Something happened which caused her to murder her daughter. Whether or not that catalyst was PPD, a continuation of her pathalogical lying, or something else, I think her best shot is an insanity defense. There's certainly lots of material for a defense "expert" to diagnose her as insane.

Pretty much agree with your diagnosis except I wouldn't call it insanity. I'd call it functioning mental illness. Casey hurts people by her lies which are used to manipulate others. For killing someone, her own child, she should be locked up for most of her life, no matter what's wrong with her, because we don't have a way of making sure she wouldn't do it again. There are a lot of liars living in fantasy worlds who don't steal or kill. One who does should not be left or set free to walk around among us for a long time even though I do think your trigger theory is valid. Casey really does not meet the current criminal legal insanity standard. Morally, I don't think she should be found 'innocent' by any verdict. Perhaps someday, the system will establish a guilty but mentally deficient legal standard falling short of actual innocent by virture of insanity. However, since there doesn't seem to be sure cure for disorders such as this, I still think jail is probably the best solution for this type of perp.

IMO, Casey's best defense at this point would be, "I did it but it was an accident and I pannicked which makes sense taking into account my family and my upbringing." Ironically, I think her personality disorder (and/or her lawyer and her personality disordered relationdship with him) may actually prevent her from allowing that.
 

jon_burrows

New Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
3
Website
www.youtube.com
IMO, she can't go for the insanity defense because she was not legally insane at the time she committed the murder. Legally insane would mean she didn't know what she was doing was wrong. Clearly she knew right from wrong. Triple wrapping Caylee's body, hiding her body, lying about Caylee's whereabouts, ditching the smelly car, avoiding her parents knowing they would question her, etc, all prove she knew murder was wrong. She also knew the ramifications if she got caught (i.e. her text message to Tony about spending eternity in prison).

As for her living in a fantasy world. I don't buy that either. She was a plain ol' liar, con artist, and thief. A very bad one at that. Apparently she had been caught stealing many times. It seems almost, if not all of her family and friends knew she was a liar. Casey didn't want to work so she made up a job and stupid details to bolster her lies. It doesn't make her crazy. It simply makes her lazy, stupid, and arrogant for thinking people would actually believe her. I think she is evil too but definitely not legally insane.
 

Deputy Andy

"Achievement is its own reward - pride obscures it
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
281
Reaction score
0
This is timer55. Tonight you will party at The Dragon Room.
 

gardenhart

New Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
814
Reaction score
0
I wanted to thank you both for providing links to facts about the insanity defense. You cannot begin to imagine how difficult it has been for me to stay away from this thread. People are so misinformed about mental illness (including personality disorders) and how it relates (or doesn't!) to the legal term "insanity".

Casey Anthony is not insane- not even close... and an insanity defense won't even make it through the doors of that courthouse.

Thanks, Onelostgirl. It doesn't seem to matter. A number of us have tried to explain this over and over and yet invariably the discussion goes right back to, "Yes, but she's clearly mentally ill so she must be insane."

For myself, I'll leave the diagnosing to the experts, and I think that's what's really going on - everyone wants to jump in and give their diagnosis, again, of crazy Casey. Bottom line is that unless you're virtually a psychotic vegetable, the law will hold you liable for your actions.
 

nursebeeme

Registered User
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
53,158
Reaction score
176
she is not insane. She has a personality disorder (I know I am echoing many others). If Jb even thought of an insanity defense I would think HE were the one who was insane!
 

OneLostGrl

I'm going against the grain- I'm going sane
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
14,316
Reaction score
24
Thanks, Onelostgirl. It doesn't seem to matter. A number of us have tried to explain this over and over and yet invariably the discussion goes right back to, "Yes, but she's clearly mentally ill so she must be insane."

For myself, I'll leave the diagnosing to the experts, and I think that's what's really going on - everyone wants to jump in and give their diagnosis, again, of crazy Casey. Bottom line is that unless you're virtually a psychotic vegetable, the law will hold you liable for your actions.

I agree.. it doesn't matter what facts are given, some people need something other than another human being to blame so they blame mental illness. Makes me sick. Anyone who has been effected by true mental illness, real insanity, wouldn't use the words Casey and insane in the same sentence.

But we will wait until trial and they will see no insanity defense.


ETA- As I pointed out in another thread, Casey had psych eval in jail when she first went. Do any of you people really think they would have missed insanity? Because they certainly would not have let her go home on bail for a month if she were insane- she'd be locked up nice and tight until trial or until they could make her sane :crazy:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top