Casey & Family Psychological Profile #9

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by JBean, Jul 7, 2009.

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  1. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    Discuss the family dynamics and psychological profiles of Casey and family in a constructive way, please do so here.
    thanks.:)

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70260"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69987"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76453"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78735"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72749"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80287"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #6[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84153"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85681"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #8[/ame]
     
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  3. Chiquita71

    Chiquita71 New Member

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    Hello WS ;)

    I believe we have to add a spiritual dimension to our information if we are to understand the psychology of this family(or any other for that matter). Part of that information is covered in the Astrology Forum(Go Astros!)where I have read that Caylee was born opposing Casey. They were mortal enemies. I think information such as this goes a long way in explaining soul contracts, karma contracts. Caylee came to give this family a chance at a great learning.

    If we pull away from spirituality, as we should on this thread, we can still discuss this same realm of information by looking at what Jung called the psychology of the unconscious mind, here we all find our dark side. The side of ourselves we deny, yet still exists. And what you resist, persists.

    Was Casey, is Casey sane? We ask. Here is where I get confused because my definition of sane and most people's is quite different. So I ask; "Is Casey, was Casey conscious that killing Caylee was wrong? (For this we are assuming Casey did kill Caylee).

    It does not matter. We can not know on this level of understanding(non spiritual)what Casey thinks, knows or really feels. All the evidence in the world can not show what is in her heart, only a higher source knows that: she may even be unaware of what is in her heart. What we really want to know, figure out is if WE think she understood what she was doing was wrong, horrible. That is what justice on earth is all about. What if Casey does not, in her mind, think that killing Caylee was wrong? That does not mean she did not know society thought it was wrong, that is why the lies and cover up after the fact, it just means she does not think its wrong.

    Does that make her crazy? I think that makes her more crazy than if she did not understand the difference between right and wrong. Not understanding is a lack of intelligence not a lack of soul: those with the lowest of IQ's know to be kind and loving.

    I believe that Casey is on a service-to-self path(currently)and for those of us who are (mostly)service-to-others: it is hard to understand she freely choose her path. Everyone is correct to see the darkness emerge from this family unit, it is darkness that was always there but Caylee died so all could see. The unconscious mind of this family resulted in Casey killing Caylee.

    Scott M. Peck is the author of a book called: People of the Lie where he takes a psychological approach to evil. He says that to understand evil we must add a spiritual component. Jung's unconscious, I believe holds the ignored information of the soul.

    To bring the psychology back to the conscious realm I will add the nurture to the above "nature/soul". Here are Mr. Pecks stages of love. We can see clearly that Casey was stuck at Stage I.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck


    Stage I

    Chaotic, disordered and reckless. Very young children are in stage I. They tend to defy and disobey and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. Many criminals are people who never outgrew stage I.

    Stage II

    Is the stage where a person has blind faith. Once children learn to obey their parents, they reach stage II. Many religious people are essentially stage II people in a sense they have blind faith in God and do not question(have never questioned)his existence.

    Stage III

    Is the stage of scientific skepticism and inquisitivity. Does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically. Many people working in scientific and technological research are in stage III.

    Stage IV

    Is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature. While retaining skepticism, (s)he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature. His religiousness and spirituality differ significantly from that of a stage II person in a sense (s)he does not accept things though blind faith but does so because of a genuine belief. Labeled as Mystics.


    Freud would have asked Casey about her dreams. Carl Jung split from Freud on the idea of the unconscious, Freud thought our dark side came from the womb and sexual dysfunction caused by our mothers and Jung felt our dark side existed before the womb as the collective unconscious of humanity as a whole and that we are born having our share of this mind and this is where to look for deeper hidden meanings to our behaviors.

    Alice Miller another Phd. says that the root of all violence and evil in our world is found in how we raise our children. The Anthonys are a case study in Poisonous Pediology, a phrase she coined to describe the type of parenting that we see with the Anthony's. What a child learns in the first few months can impress upon it a lifetime of behavior: much and most of it locked in the memories of early, early childhood. We see in the denial of Casey being pregnant with Caylee as the example of the poisonous teachings and the cult like atmosphere of their group reality. Further example of this is found in the confusing exchanges between the family during the initial jailhouse conversations.

    Cindy is not crazy, she thinks she is right. She has lived her life trying to control everything and everyone around her because that is how she feel safe. That sounds mild but this idea of self makes her dangerous to those that love and depend on her. Women are taught that we do not own what is in society so when we are working with our "evil" or dark side we tend to control what we do feel we own. Our family, our children. The lesson for Cindy is she never was in control.

    I am glad I am not on the jury. I know what I think is right and wrong. I know I am glad that I did not get stuck in any stage, and I don't know if I can blame someone for not advancing. Oh, I do not enjoy saying this completely: I do blame Cindy more than Casey. When I think of that moment, the exact moment Casey was choosing to take Caylee's life, I blame Casey for that exact moment, but the sculpture is Cindy's artistry.

    Casey is responsible for the death of Caylee and Cindy is responsible for Casey.

    ...jmo...I ;) WS
     
  4. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    With respect, Carl Jung notwithstanding, KC is responsible for KC.

    Many of us came from homes far worse than KCs, and still managed to grow into responsible, caring people. It's all about working to get past one's family of origin, and deciding what kind of person to be.

    If you believe that we are karmically put into a situation of optimum learning, at birth, you believe that KC was, as well. Then, KC's karmic lesson may have been the challenge of growing into responsible adulthood. Clearly, she chose to avoid the growth and flee the lesson. Her choice.

    Collapsing into a, "my Mom made me what I am," mode stunts personal growth and is a moral and emotional cop-out. It amounts to a refusal to grow up. Most therapists do not encourage patients to persist in that mode of thinking.

    KC knew what she was doing, that it was illegal, that society held it to be wrong, and that she would be punished if caught. Her choice, her consequences, her lesson.

    KC could have got a job (or stayed with the one she had) got a place to live, got some counseling, and learned to interact wih her family constructively (or not at all) llike many of the rest of us did.

    Cindy may be lousy Mom. Many of us have had bad parents-- even brutal parents. But, Cindy did not kill the baby. KC killed the baby.
     
  5. Chiquita71

    Chiquita71 New Member

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    Hello WS ;)

    Quote respect Brini: I understand your point of view and agree. I just feel I must add in a metaphysical, psychological aspect to my understanding of this case. Having noted dr.s who have studied this dark side of humanity speaking of "evil" coming from our unconscious: I felt could be applied for greater understanding.

    On a personal note I do believe in karma, which is just the outcome and sum of all your choices during all your lifetimes on earth. I do believe we are 100% responsible for ourselves and our choices. Yet, we do not live in a vacuum, the choices we make are like ripples in a pond they move out to effect everyone they touch. When I say that Cindy is responsible by way of Casey for the death of Caylee, that does not say Casey is not responsible, we could not say she was not responsible for Caylee's death. And by that token Cindy is responsible for Casey. We are not saying this because Casey did something wrong, if Casey had turned out to be a wonderful citizen we would have no issue with giving credit to her parents. I believe the energy works both ways.




    I totally agree. Cindy is a lousy Mom. I had bad parents, even brutal parents. And, Cindy did not kill the baby. Casey killed Caylee. To quote myself: "Casey is responsible for the death of Caylee and Cindy is responsible for Casey."

    ...jmo...
     
  6. affinity

    affinity New Member

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    I haven't been feeling well for a couple of days and I spent some time watching those initial jail visits. wow. I mean wow. I have been way behind most of you because I only got interested in "delving" into the case a few months ago. I have had a lot of catching up to do.

    I was blown away by the George and Casey visit...because they were so obviously trying to be supportive of one another---and yet it was also apparent that George and Casey didn't have many heart to heart talks before that visit! They acted like they barely knew each other. It could have passed for a discussion between neighbors instead of a father/daughter. In order to dance around the very serious nature of the situation they both used seemingly familiar coping skills. George hauls out his motivational speaking skills (I swear, he must have been a Rotarian or something) and Casey does a lot of sucking sounds to simulate crying (which she was definitely not really doing). She has a nervous laugh that she uses for "charm". She gets angry if questions about Caylee surface and then goes back to the school girl routine without a hitch. What dynamics!

    I am not kidding that I feel sorry for those two. Well, I feel sorry for everyone...absolutely everyone (mostly Caylee)--but poor George back then--trying to cheer his murdering daughter! He told Casey that there are many people who support her! What a crock.

    I am betting George was a quiet husband/father but with a capacity to flip out if his tools were disturbed etc. A hot head. This is why Casey steered so clear of him. The "distance" was very obvious. No matter how often he calls her "gorgeous" or "beautiful" anyone can tell that he is ill at ease talking to her.

    During the visit Casey so obviously wants him to love HER and instead he keeps talking about Caylee. I know I am not supposed to feel sorry for Casey--but several times it seemed she thought he was talking about her when it turns out he is talking about Caylee. You can see her quickly shift gears to fake being concerned for Caylee too--but she shows a tinge of disappointment. Things have changed because she isn't taking visits now but during THAT visit she was a bit like a puppy who wants to be petted. Pet me Daddy..and also get me out of here!

    I see a young woman who desperately wishes her parents loved her REALLY...without the artifice. I don't know what to think about karma and astrology..past lives and all that. I just know that all people want LOVE very much and Casey is absolutely no exception.
     
  7. Just Jayla

    Just Jayla New Member

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    BBM-I do, too. Early on, loving KC would have meant disciplining her properly, loving KC would have been giving her boundaries, loving KC would have meant having expectations of her, and loving KC would have meant letting her fail a few times. But her parents have clearly not loved her in the more healthy, ideal way. They do, however, go out of their way to love her superficially.

    Example of not letting her "fail" earlier on: I am suspicious of the whole story behind KC not graduating on time. I think she may have had grade/attendance issues at that time. Her parents marched right over to the school and blamed the school for not advising them, but I wonder if the school did not....I think the type of error they described would have been known to all by mid-term. And frankly, the type of error in credit hours she described seems bazarre....IMBW, but I believe HS offers more than enough credits 9-12...You could basically have a short day in 12th grade if you had taken the entire available allotment of classes in prior years. KC may have been acting out by that time, and was good at it by then....She STARVES for attention. But Mommy and Daddy covered up awithout ever asking KC what was wrong with her.

    KC is responsible entirely for her actions, but I think the mindset of being untouchable started with KC and her family a while back.
     
  8. ExpectingUnicorns

    ExpectingUnicorns . . . only the pure of heart can see.

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    I am assuming that Cindy and George never sought out the proper channels of help to get for Casey. I think we're all assuming that they never demanded that she (or they) go for professional counselling. But I don't know that for a fact. If they did they probably wouldn't reveal it at this point because they would think it could appear that Casey did, indeed, have a major problem and make it more likely that she could murder her own child. So with my lack of knowledge of what they did or didn't do to reel Casey in while she was "growing up" I find it uncomfortable to place a great deal of blame in their corner.

    But while we don't know the actual history of how they coped with (or ignored) Casey's past behavior, we do know how they've coped with her since 7/15. I place huge blame on them for this! Since they discovered Caylee was missing they have been nothing less than enablers. Given no solid facts about how they dealt with Casey beforehand we can only base our theories about how they raised her on how they're behaving now. And if that's true, neither Casey or Caylee ever had a chance at a normal life. What's so scary is that none of them ever realized it!!!
     
  9. Truthwillsetufree

    Truthwillsetufree New Member

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    Bolded part by me.... This is only what I can theorize by, what we see them doing now as I do not know their past behaviors and their sketchy past due to lack of past friends coming forward to speak on their behalf. I can only surmise that the A's are quite comfortable coming to KC's rescue at any and all cost even to to the point of relegating Caylee's memory to that of a false memory of a missing child and not a Murdered Child. Instead of demanding the killer of Caylee being found and brought to justice. The A's are content to sit on their laurels and spew Mother Of The Year BS at the listening public until we are nauseous. As for their psych profile...I'm not a practicing physician, psychiatrist, just a normal citizen, like the ones that will be on a jury, a regular mom and my opinion is that these people at this time are just bat chit crazy. (sorry Brini , they are just nuts!)
     
  10. Woe.be.gone

    Woe.be.gone Active Member

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    Let me toss out an equal portion of blame to Ga, CA and KC. Based on a traditional way of thinking due to the fact that the A family consisted of a dad, mom and two kids, the father is called to the leadership role. When there is a weak leader, everyone suffers. The other members of the group must fill in as best they can. Depending on the circumstances, this lack of leadership can create alot of stress on one corner of the structure so-to-speak and may eventually even cause it to collapse. I'd rather not have four corners, if one corner refuses to hold its weight. If I'm a pole and am standing alone, I plan accordingly. Don't ask me to hold up a clothsline as a single pole. Especially don't bring your strong wind around that is constantly blowing down what I'm trying to hold up. I might get a bit crazy if you do that and become a hurricane myself because now I'm in survival mode and you're not helping me. You are a virus and are attacking my safety. I'm finding it hard to stand with your weight on me.

    When the wind never quits blowing season after season, it alters the atmosphere in a bad way creating new problems and weakens the pole. The pole may even fall down.

    From gathering bits and pieces of info as to how both KC and LA perceive their father, I feel that "princess" views the world and her role in it based on watching GA. My guess is that CA became what she is by continually trying to put out fires within her own forest that GA lit. How do you plant new trees when the ones you have are in constant danger? You could move but that would take more resources than you have so you keep trying to safeguard or hold on to the bad location you know. Where's the evidence that CA was getting help keeping the family afloat? LA took more after CA and managed to find a way to make a living to support himself but KC was ALLOWED NOT TO by both GA and CA - why?

    How can a father enforce that which he does not do himself? Why should a mother be asked to cover all the bases herself? CA HAD to but KC was NOT required to - what is that about? There are reasons that people act/respond the way they do. An individual's behavior is not based solely on him/her independent of circumstances. That would be too simple. imo.
     
  11. Searchfortruth

    Searchfortruth New Member

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    BBM. Great post WBG ! You raised so many good points.

    This "family" is not an easy study for me. I feel George has had anger issues for many years and this may have played a part in the whole Cindy/Casey enablement issue. I don't know any of this for certain, it's just a feeling I get...George is not the quiet, nice guy he tries to portray, IMO.

    Why is Casey the one that was enabled and not Lee ? Another geat question that I would love to know the answer to. Is it possible that Casey played into the role more than Lee ? Maybe their personalities were such that Lee wanted to be independent, we know Casey did not want the responsibility that came along with that freedom. Since Lee was a boy maybe they, Cindy and George, raised him to be "tougher" and spoiled Casey since she was a "girl". Many parents raise their children differantly depending on the sex of the child.

    Everything you wrote makes sense to me and I agree with you that behavior is largely shaped by "circumstances"...again, I enjoyed your post !
     
  12. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    Yet, a lot of us from the same background ARE living normal lives.

    I think to say that KC and Caylee "never had a chance" is a bit too strong. Millions of people have overcome a bad family of origin, by availing themselves of other resources.
    :blowkiss:
     
  13. Searchfortruth

    Searchfortruth New Member

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    I understand that many people from less than perfect homes have improved upon themselves by making a choice to not be like their parents. But, IMO, many more people are deeply affected by their dysfunctional upbringing and even repeat the cycle, some do over and over again. Many of those same people probably said to themselves, I will never be like my mother/father...yet they end up being very much like them.

    I think a lot of us here can see a connect between Cindy and George's dysfunction and Casey's. It's not that it adds up to an excuse for murder, it doesn't. But, the connect is worth discussing and debate. Like another poster said, "Casey is responsible for Caylee's death, but Cindy and George are responsible for Casey". They are her parents and ALL parents are responsible for their children and the way they are raised. Casey didn't come to be without any help or assistance.
     
  14. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    She may have done, at least partly. There is also thought to be a genetic component in personality disorders, such as sociopathy.

    If there IS such a genetic component, it may help to explain why other people break the abuse cycle, and she didn't.

    It could be a matter of bad seed in a bad garden.
     
  15. MAMABEAR

    MAMABEAR New Member

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    Nice statement. I really like that.
     
  16. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    Three possibilities:

    1) Gender
    2) KC may be a genetic sociopath-- which would throw the family dynamics her way.
    3) KC tends to be more confrontive and aggressive than Lee.

    Any or all of the above may have provoked the family to deal with her differently.

    If, as some of us think, KC is a natural sociopath and CA is a borderline personality... there's the tinderbox!

    I think much of the psych community has pretty much concluded that the outcome of a person is a mix of innate personality and upbringing. Not exclusively either factor.

    That's why it is often said that, "No parent has the same two children, and no two children have the same parents."
     
  17. essies

    essies "We're all just walking each other home." Ram Dass

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    This is quite interesting-from the Caylee Daily:
    “BRACE” Profile of Casey Anthony: She correlates positively with Jeffrey Dahmer
    July 12, 2009 by: Express
    Analysis of Casey Anthony’s Basic BRACE Character Profile™ Graphic
    There is significant pathology in all three domains (Cognitive, Behavior, and Existential) and for all three character types (Type A, Type B and Type C). The overall profile and each domain is dominated by Type C characters, which reflects an extremely self-centered and self-justifying individual who is functionally possessed by the active pursuit of all types of pleasure and comfort, sacrificing others in the process, and the simultaneous avoidance of pain/discomfort, including personal and social responsibilities. This person’s imagination is full of self-serving fantasies and she has an unbridled willingness to act-out the desires of her heart, all at the expense of others. The high Type B characteristics in the Cognitive domain indicate a preoccupation with matters of power and control, which in combination with the high Type A characteristics, indicate exceptionally poor judgment and an almost total disregard for consequences. This person wears cognitive blinders and others are valued only to the degree that they afford her some type of gain or the avoidance of undesired consequences.

    The Behavior domain reflects a unrestrained level of acting-out (Type C) and very proactive competition with others for attention, control, and being on center stage. The acting-out is often dramatic, intrusive, manipulative, generally indifferent to others, and very likely to escalate until limits are externally imposed or personal resources are exhausted. Alcohol and other substance abuse are likely and the pleasure seeking will always exceed the pleasure found, leading to new excesses and related personal deficits, both physical and psychological. However, it is the social reinforcement and control that dominates, even to the degree that alcohol and drugs become secondary sources of pleasure/comfort and pain/discomfort avoidance.

    However, it is important to keep in mind that the BRACE Character Profile™ only profiles maladaptive characteristics and does not directly address any type clinical qualifiers or diagnoses. The BRACE Character Profile™ reflects maladaptive patterns — characteristics of thought, behavior, and motivation — it does not make clinical diagnoses. There are many potential clinical pathways to any cluster of cognitive-behavioral-existential characteristics. Consequently, such visual comparisons are generally more useful in ruling-out than ruling-in.

    That said, the only visual comparisons that appear to share characteristics with Casey Anthony’s basic profile are Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic Personality Disorders. On the other hand, Schizoid, Avoidant, Dependent, and Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorders can likely be ruled out. Schizotypal Personality Disorder may have some patterns that relate but it is unclear

    Based on her BRACE Character Profile™, Casey Anthony is self-centered, self-justifying and self-promotional. It is all learned behavior, but there appears to be some type of memory dysfunction, not a matter of not knowing the difference between the truth and a lie, but rather not caring or not expecting to be caught or held responsible, perhaps aided by episodes of acute substance abuse. There is a semblance of confabulation and indifference to others or the truth, but there is something else.
    There is an intentional quality to her indifference, a deliberate manipulation of others, a calculated purpose that affords her some type of personal reinforcement. Perhaps media coverage, perhaps the fame and fortune some are trying to cultivate through her, perhaps.
    In order to better understand Casey Anthony, her profile was correlated with several other profiles of characters (fictional and non-fictional) and prototypical types (serial killers, spies, etc.) already in the BRACE Character Profile™ database.

    Casey Anthony correlates negatively with the DSM-III-R Sadistic Personality Disorder, but positively with the DSM-IV-TR Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. She correlates positively with secretive, manipulative types such as Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy and Dennis Lynn Rader, but not with Joel Rifkin (Asperger’s Disorder), Edmund Kemper III, or the sophisticated Dr. Hannibal Lecter. Asperger’s Disorder is further ruled-out by a significant negative correlation with the infamous fictional character, Jason, from the Friday the 13th movie series. It is noteworthy that there is a significant positive correlation with the self-made media celebrity John Mark Karr and with the fictional character, Kia, of Jack Osborne’s novella, BLOOD RED: Genesis of a Psychopath.[6]

    The detailed graphics and correlations charts remain for others to do their own analyses.

    Russell L. Smith
    www.BRACEanalysis.com
     
  18. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    No, no, no. Hannibal Lecter is SO much brighter! His vocabulary is better (in several languaqes), and he can intelligently dispose of a victim. (au jus, with a nice red wine). :)

    Remember, we KNOW how Dr. Lecter got warped.

    But, there are psych schools of thought that opine that Axis IIs are wired differently, from birth.

    So, whether it's nature or nurture, one reason why CA and KC don't get along is that they are too much alike, whether that is nature, nurture, or as many think, a combination of the two.


    I'm sorry! I read that wrong. It says NOT with Dr. Lecter.
     
  19. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    This is written by one of our posters here,Knot4u2no. if you search the previous threads on this topic, Russell discusses this in depth.

    I need to check with him and make sure he is ok with a complete posting of his article
     
  20. essies

    essies "We're all just walking each other home." Ram Dass

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    JBean-I just saw that! I guess alot of overlapping is happening during the lull before trial!!
    Brini-He's saying KC is NOT like Lector! He's saying she's more like Dahmer!:eek:
     
  21. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    Overlapping is no problem. I was just letting you know in case you have any specific questions for Russell.
     
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