Challenge of the Masters

[BBB167893]

I'll assume then that this is merely a claim presented as a fact. IOW 'saying stuff'.

Don't twist it. Have enough consideration for me not to do that.

PR and JR fibers could very well be in places where you would expect them to be. There is no reason to believe they weren't.

You're beginning to think like me, HOTYH!

You just claimed they weren't.

Well, not really. Perhaps some perspective is in order. PR tried to explain why those fibers would have been on JBR. But instead of giving a reasonable scenario, such as "well, I'd been around her all day; what did you expect?" she needed TWO FULL YEARS to come up with an explanation that just added one more inconsistency onto an already massive pile. As I explain in chapter three:

she told a CBS reporter that her fibers had transferred to JonBenet that morning because Patsy, who had been wearing the same clothing she had worn at the party, laid on top of her. But this cannot explain it. In their own book, Death of Innocence, John Ramsey writes that by the time Patsy came near the body, JonBenet was already fully covered. This is borne out by the police reports. Even if it were true, the fibers would have to have floated down the stairs into the basement around several corners to reach the blanket that JonBenet had been wrapped in. As Boston sex crimes prosecutor Wendy Murphy stated, this would require, quote, "flat-out magic." Moreover, the blanket was fresh from the dryer and Patsy's sweater had not been laundered with it. Her own story does not hold up. Think about that: this woman had two full years to come up with a story, and that was the best she could do.

And now you're asking me to find proof that shows your claim to be invalid, a claim you yourself can't prove?

I'm giving you a chance to prove YOUR claim. I have no more reason to believe you than you have to believe me. I didn't mean that quite the way it sounded, but I hope you get my meaning.

 

[Ravyn]

MR. LEVIN: I think that is
probably fair. Based on the state of the
art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
from her jacket were found in the paint
tray, were found tied into the ligature found
on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
that she is wrapped in, were found on the
duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
the question is, can she explain to us how
those fibers appeared in those places that
are associated with her daughter's death.
And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.

0202
MR. LEVIN: I understand your
position.
In addition to those questions,
there are some others that I would like you
to think about whether or not we can have
Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
understand you are advising her not to today,
and those are there are black fibers that,
according to our testing that was conducted,
that match one of the two shirts that was
provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
Those are located in the
underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
her crotch area, and I believe those are two
other areas that we have intended to ask
Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
explaining their presence in those locations...

Based on the state of the art scientific testing and this is how you go by the DNA isn't...

 

[BBB167893]

I have no idea about the fibers. Unlike the unknown male DNA that is frequently reported in the news, I can't find anything in the news about PR or JR fibers in the underwear, tied into the cord, or on the duct tape.

All the MORE reason to check out a few other sources, as far as I go!

Its an RDI myth, as far as I'm concerned.

HOTYH, it's so rare that you offer yourself up like this. I really shouldn't enjoy what I'm about to do, but I will.

It doesn't follow that I have a theory on PR and JR fiber because they are not even known to exist. Its BS.

Oh, REALLY??? Here you go:

MR. LEVIN: I can state to you, Mr. Wood, that, given the current state of the scientific examination of fibers, that, based on the state of the art technology, that I believe, based on testing, that fibers from your client's coat are in the paint tray.

MR. WOOD: Are you stating as a fact that they are from the coat or is it consistent with? What is the test result terminology? Is it conclusive? I mean, I think she is entitled to know that when you ask her to explain something.

MR. KANE: It is identical in all scientific respects.

MR. WOOD: Will he testify that it is a conclusive match?

MR. KANE: Yes.

MR. LEVIN: "I think that is probably fair. Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her sweater were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

MR. LEVIN: I understand your
9 position.
10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.

And lest we forget! This all takes place within the context of PR ADMITTING they were hers on worldwide television in a way that only added onto the pile. You claim to be big on context, HOTYH. Well, are you or aren't you?

These fibers have been mentioned in numerous articles, on TV shows (even LS admitted that they were incriminating), and in books such as those by Lawrence Schiller and Steve Thomas.

Has the point been made, or shall I continue?

Whereas the unknown male DNA is widely reported, these PR and JR fibers are not.

We have our friend Mr. Wood to thank for that.

If PR or JR underwear fibers were ranking as high as the DNA they'd be in the news but they're not.

PLEASE, HOTYH. Do not insult our intelligence.

 

[cynic]

I can't find anything in the news about PR or JR fibers in the underwear, tied into the cord, or on the duct tape. Its an RDI myth, as far as I'm concerned.

What's next, denying the existence of the ransom note?
Even your buddy Lou admits to the fibers:

October 4, 2002 - CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer

Erin Moriarty: "But what about the fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police say were in the paint tray and on the sticky side of duct tape covering JonBenet's mouth"

Erin Moriarty: "Is there a fact that there were fibers consistent with Patsy Ramsey's jacket incriminating?"

Lou Smit: "Sure."

 

[DeeDee249]

Something doesn't have to appear in the "news" (papers. TV) for it to be a fact. There are plenty of facts that are killed by the media.
There are also lots of "false facts" that the media push out as truth.
I recall the headlines from a few years back, as I'm sure you all do:

"RAMSEY CASE SOLVED!" This was when they found JMK. Yep- that was the truth as told by the media.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"This all takes place within the context of PR ADMITTING they were hers..."

Oh, I didn't know we were leaving it up to PR to do the investigating, whose fibers they were and all that. Usually you don't ask a suspect "were those your fingerprints? LOL

Police stating that PR's fibers were found in the paint tote to PR could've been a scare tctic. Its not known to be real. If it were real, how remarkable would PR's fibers be in PR's own tote box? Not remarkable.

When fibers carry the same weight on national TV as that darned unknown male DNA in JBR's panties thats matching DNA on her longjohns, then we can have a better argument, IMO.

 

[cynic]

"This all takes place within the context of PR ADMITTING they were hers..."

Oh, I didn't know we were leaving it up to PR to do the investigating, whose fibers they were and all that. Usually you don't ask a suspect "were those your fingerprints? LOL

Police stating that PR's fibers were found in the paint tote to PR could've been a scare tctic. Its not known to be real. If it were real, how remarkable would PR's fibers be in PR's own tote box? Not remarkable.

When fibers carry the same weight on national TV as that darned unknown male DNA in JBR's panties thats matching DNA on her longjohns, then we can have a better argument, IMO.

That is denial of epic proportions, very impressive.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"RAMSEY CASE SOLVED!" This was when they found JMK. Yep- that was the truth as told by the media.

The subject is JMK:

CURT BAGGETT, HANDWRITING ANALYST: Well, they match. And they're very, very similar and there's probably a dozen of other traits in the handwriting that I look at to be almost in the exact match. You just can't have that many similar traits without the same person having written it.

LOL

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That is denial of epic proportions, very impressive.

I'm in denial that PR or JR fibers exist to the extent reported on this forum. This is because THEY'RE NOT REPORTED AT ALL by mainstream media.

The items of evidence that BPD has or doesn't have doesn't necessarily have to be factually represented in PR's interviews. I'm surprised anyone could be that naive.

 

[cynic]

I'm in denial that PR or JR fibers exist to the extent reported on this forum. This is because THEY'RE NOT REPORTED AT ALL by mainstream media.

The items of evidence that BPD has or doesn't have doesn't necessarily have to be factually represented in PR's interviews. I'm surprised anyone could be that naive.

So you feel that there is a higher probability of getting the truth from the mainstream media over deposed statements under oath???

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So you feel that there is a higher probability of getting the truth from the mainstream media over deposed statements under oath???

Please show me where BPD was under oath.

 

[cynic]

Please show me where BPD was under oath.

DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS
September 21, 2001
A. Certainly. "Two days before we were to go onstage, we got some surprising big news when the Colorado Bureau of Investigation lab told us that the acrylic fibers found on the duct tape that covered JonBenet's mouth were a quote, likely match, for Patsy's blazer. We were ready."
Q. You've been asked earlier with respect to the forensic, you know, not importance, but the forensic views that the ransom note was being made for. Did this become an important piece of forensic evidence in the case?
MR. WOOD: You're talking about the ransom note now or the likely match of four fibers?
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, thank you, Lin.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers that were found on the duct tape that were covering JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that become an important piece of forensic evidence in the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when or at what point in the case the CBI made that report?
A. I think it was sometime before we were told -- I think that information may have been held by Wickman and Trujillo and Beckner possibly.

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001thomas-depo.htm

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

DEPOSITION OF STEVEN THOMAS
September 21, 2001
A. Certainly. "Two days before we were to go onstage, we got some surprising big news when the Colorado Bureau of Investigation lab told us that the acrylic fibers found on the duct tape that covered JonBenet's mouth were a quote, likely match, for Patsy's blazer. We were ready."
Q. You've been asked earlier with respect to the forensic, you know, not importance, but the forensic views that the ransom note was being made for. Did this become an important piece of forensic evidence in the case?
MR. WOOD: You're talking about the ransom note now or the likely match of four fibers?
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, thank you, Lin.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers that were found on the duct tape that were covering JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that become an important piece of forensic evidence in the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when or at what point in the case the CBI made that report?
A. I think it was sometime before we were told -- I think that information may have been held by Wickman and Trujillo and Beckner possibly.

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001thomas-depo.htm

Somebody told somebody about a 'likely match'. Doesn't even say that there WAS a match or not. We should then refer to 'tape fibers likely matching PRs jacket' instead of 'PR jacket fibers were on the tape'. These are two different statements, really.

That leaves two more that RDI keeps harping on: underwear fibers and paint tote fibers. Are those mythical or real? How do you know they are real? Sorry, but I don't consider BPD interviews with PR to be a reliable source of information regarding fiber evidence that BPD has or doesn't have.

I figure that the three (3) matching DNA samples are real. Funny those didn't turn up in any of the interviews. While PR was explaining her clothing fibers, which weren't even foreign to the house, unknown male DNA that was truly foreign to the house was lurking in three (3) different places on JBR. Including mixed with blood spot on her underwear.

 

[nobull]

Somebody told somebody about a 'likely match'. Doesn't even say that there WAS a match or not. We should then refer to 'tape fibers likely matching PRs jacket' instead of 'PR jacket fibers were on the tape'.

I'm sure IF further forensic testing would have been allowed, we would have been witness to the statement "PR jacket fibers were on the tape." Sounds to me like the first part of a rule in/rule out forensic eval. She was definitely "ruled in".

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm sure IF further forensic testing would have been allowed, we would have been witness to the statement "PR jacket fibers were on the tape." Sounds to me like the first part of a rule in/rule out forensic eval. She was definitely "ruled in".

"IF further forensic testing would have been allowed..."

Oh :boohoo:

 

[cynic]

That leaves two more that RDI keeps harping on: underwear fibers and paint tote fibers. Are those mythical or real? How do you know they are real? Sorry, but I don't consider BPD interviews with PR to be a reliable source of information regarding fiber evidence that BPD has or doesn't have.

So I guess Lin Wood and Lou Smit were fooled by this BPD ruse?

 

[Tadpole12]

"This all takes place within the context of PR ADMITTING they were hers..."

Oh, I didn't know we were leaving it up to PR to do the investigating, whose fibers they were and all that. Usually you don't ask a suspect "were those your fingerprints? LOL

Police stating that PR's fibers were found in the paint tote to PR could've been a scare tctic. Its not known to be real. If it were real, how remarkable would PR's fibers be in PR's own tote box? Not remarkable.

When fibers carry the same weight on national TV as that darned unknown male DNA in JBR's panties thats matching DNA on her longjohns, then we can have a better argument, IMO.

Hi hotyh.

Police stating that PR's fibers were found in the paint tote to PR could've been a scare tctic. - Hotyh

Gee Hotyh,

is that even a possibility?
:waitasec: I guess it is.

I had not entertained that thought, beleiving that somehow, these 'facts' are legitimized in the process of formal police questioning.

That disbeleif, certainly streamlines the IDI point list.

 

[cynic]

I had not entertained that thought,

I don't think anyone but HOTYH has entertained that thought.

 

[BBB167893]

"This all takes place within the context of PR ADMITTING they were hers..."

Oh, I didn't know we were leaving it up to PR to do the investigating, whose fibers they were and all that. Usually you don't ask a suspect "were those your fingerprints? LOL

Just giving you what you asked for. And we're not asking her to do the investigating. AGAIN, you ignore the context. She admitted they were hers in a way that is inconsistent with the statements of both the police and her own book. Try again.

Police stating that PR's fibers were found in the paint tote to PR could've been a scare tactic.

I had a feeling you'd say that. So I came prepared. Bruce Levin is not a policeman. He's an attorney, and as such is FORBIDDEN by the canons of ethics from lying to a suspect. He could lose his license for that. Observe:

Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct state: Rule 4.1 Truthfulness in Statements to Others "In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly: a) make a false or misleading statement of fact or law to a third person; or(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6. COMMENT Misrepresentation A lawyer is required to be truthful when dealing with others on a client's behalf, but generally has no affirmative duty to inform an opposing party of relevant facts. A misrepresentation can occur if the lawyer incorporates or affirms a statement of another person that the lawyer knows is false. Misrepresentations can also occur by failure to act."

Still, it's funny you phrase it that way, because it scared her, all right! If you watch the video of him telling her that, her face screws up and she looks ready to faint.

Its not known to be real.

Yes it is. No one really denies it.

If it were real, how remarkable would PR's fibers be in PR's own tote box? Not remarkable.

I was HOPING you'd say that! In the same interview, she also established that she never wore that sweater in the basement:

Q. Frequently would be three or four times -- I mean, was it, if you are chilly, was this the item that you always threw on? That is what I am getting at.
A. Not necessarily, no.
Q. You talked about, in your '98 interview, that you, on the 24th, that you were in the basement and you were wrapping presents. Do you know, when you were doing that, whether or not you had on that item?
A. I don't know.
Q. You have told us that you painted as a hobby. Would you wear this to
paint?
A. No.

So, yeah, I'd call it fairly remarkable.

When fibers carry the same weight on national TV as that darned unknown male DNA in JBR's panties thats matching DNA on her longjohns, then we can have a better argument, IMO.

I'm not letting you off that easy.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm in denial that PR or JR fibers exist to the extent reported on this forum. This is because THEY'RE NOT REPORTED AT ALL by mainstream media.

Well, that's the whole problem with the mainscream media, HOTYH: you could fill volumes with what they DON'T report!