Change of beliefs

[missy_g]

What about his friends David Jacoby, LG Hollingsworth and Buddy Lucas?

 

[ukrberserker23]

Well, where is the DNA or other forensic evidence of them at the crime scene? I haven't read of any. But they did find fibers consistent with a bathrobe of one of the WM3's mother's bathrobe. Like I said before, TH looks like a good suspect, and can't account for a couple hours time that night. But if he was involved, it was with the other 3 as well. One perp could not commit this crime. Even JMB being 6'8" and about 300 lbs, could not do it by himself.If you want proof, go find 3 volunteer 8 yr old boys, and chase them all down and tie them up. Only the Flash could do that. Thge shoes that JM gave away were in all likelihood used at the crime scene. There are so many other pieces of evidence tying them there it is astounding. When I discovered Callahan's site, that is when everything fell into place. You also have to remember that they had 18 years to rehearse their stories, and change them to fit the evidence. And their stories did change. especially DE's stories. When DE and JB were arrested, they were found hiding under a bed. Innocent people don't have to hide from Law Enforcement. Funny how the rock n roll documentaries, PL, never pointed any of these facts out.

 

[ukrberserker23]

Just did some research on human bitemarks. From several medical sources online, if the intercanine space is 29mm and under, it is a child's bite mark. Above 30mm is an adult bite mark. By averages, if it is 30mm-32mm, it would be the bite mark of a teenager. The bitemark in this case is 30mm. I also think it funny how everyone makes such a big deal over TH and JMB having their teeth pulled. Well take another look at JB's teeth from photos, and PL1. Then take a look at them nowadays. He either had them all capped, or wears dentures. Wonder why? Jivepuppi.com has lots of good evidence that most have never heard of. Except the courts, which decided not to use most of it. There was fiber evidence on the victims linked directly back to clothing seized from the WM3. Funny that no one ever mentioned that either. There were also over a dozen knives taken into evidence. Some were found at the scene. Also strange how no one talks about the bag of clothing found at the scene. It had a pair of Jordache jeans in it sized 33 waist. I can guarantee JMB has a waist larger than that, and TH probably does too.I'm a 36 waist, 6 ft tall, and weigh about 250 pounds. The WM3 are lucky. Even though they did 18 years for this crime, they were let off.Now they are celebrities, and have independent income from their status. Does anyone know if DE's hair was dyed black at the time of his arrest? I know his hair now is black, but in the videos it looks flat, like it was dyed. Nowadays, it looks normal. I dyed my hair black in high school once. Had it that way about a week, until my mother saw it. Then she bleached it back out to blonde. It was a Happy Days/Grease thing for me. Wish I had half that hair back now.

 

[Ausgirl]

.......there were square TON of pedophiles living in WM. Several lived at the apartments near the RHH. Look up what went down with LG and his weird "groom-y" friend Richard. And look up "James Kenney Martin".

Well, where is the DNA or other forensic evidence of them at the crime scene? I haven't read of any.

Hairs. Jacoby & Hobbs.

 

[ukrberserker23]

You may be absolutely correct about the child molesters. None of that info turned up yet for me on Google searches. As for the hair, it was matched to them, and 9% of the population. To me it is irrelevant. No one has countered my point yet that this crime had multiple perps. Could not have been committed by a single perp. Normal 8 yr old boys can move at least 3 times as fast as I can. As I also pointed out, jivepuppi says there were at least 8 hairs found at the crime scene. Only 2 were tested. One was a hair that had been dyed. Neither JMB or TH appear to have colored their hair. I don't know about other suspects. I just feel that everyone is being fooled by the star factor here. Innocent men go to prison everyday, and guilty men walk everyday. All I can say is that I know evil when I see it. And when I look at DE, I see pure, soulless, evil. Just like the JBR murder, we will probably never know who the real perp was.

 

[Ausgirl]

I just feel that everyone is being fooled by the star factor here.

You can feel what you like - doesn't mean it's anything to do with reality. Some here have been at this case since it happened. Some are compulsive sleuthers, and have read absolutely *everything*. Take some time to look back through the archives, there's some incredibly well-researched posts on both sides. If there's one thing I would NOT call anyone who regularly posts here, it's "star-struck".

All I can say is that I know evil when I see it. And when I look at DE, I see pure, soulless, evil.

Not being in possession of the faculty to detect pure evil with my eyes, I tend to stick to evidence and stuff based on facts. That said, I don't like Echols much, either. I don't think he's "evil" as such, but he's not anyone I'd prefer to hang around. Doesn't make him a killer. It's just an opinion.

Just like the JBR murder, we will probably never know who the real perp was.

Well, I do agree with you there. In both cases, there's next to no hope of 100% inarguable proof of guilt magically manifesting. No matter who is ultimately agreed upon as most likely to be guilty, there will ALWAYS be someone shouting "wrong". And for the four children in question, that just makes me very very sad.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I have followed this case since the first broadcast of Paradise Lost on HBO. At first I believed that the WM3 had been railroaded into prison. I guess because I was a little weird in high school, and listened to hard rock music, I initially empathized with the three. The other two movies only reinforced my beliefs. I didn't do any more studying on this case for more than 10 years. Now I found this thread, and the link to Callahan's. After reviewing most of the evidence there, I have decided to go the other way. Remember that the PL series was produced by HBO/ Time Warner. The two producers were also the producers of a documentary on Metallica. This is why Metallica songs are used throughout the series. But I also viewed the documents in evidence produced by the defendants themselves. DE was hospitalized at least 3 times in mental hospitals. By his own admission, he was homicidal, suicidal, schizophrenic, depressed, etc. And no matter what anyone says, they all plead guilty to the murders under the Alford Plea. If I were actually innocent, there is no way I would plead guilty. They were, and are guilty. They make great folk heroes, but they are still criminals. <mod snip>. I live about 30 miles from there. Same as with the JBR murder. Patsy was from Parkersburg, WV. Charles Manson had relatives in WV. Sad to say, the WM3 are sick, twisted, rapists, and child killers. Maybe someday the world will know the truth. Check out the site, WM3truth.com. Plus Callahan.8k.com.

BBM. Everyone who has never been in that position says that but it happens more often than you think. And if it would save your life, no one knows what they would do. Your reason that they must have done is is because they were all from the same area? That's a new one..

 

[Ausgirl]

Putting thought to your question of multiple killers, I appreciate that the possibility does indeed exist, and that kids can very hard to herd, especially if they don't want to be herded. However, I cannot discount the possibility of a single perp for these reasons:

1. Gun. Real or not, loaded or not, you point something that looks like a gun at a group of kids, it's likely they'll not argue with you. So why not just shoot 'em, is the next logical question. Well, even discounting the fact that witnesses reported hearing what sounded like gunshots (warning shots?) in that area that night, the RHH is so close to the truck stop and apartments, maybe it'd be off putting to anyone who did not want to be caught. Doesn't mean a gun was not used to control the kids.

2. All kids had significant head trauma. Someone with a blunt instrument could feasibly hit all three in quick succession before the kids could run. Those head wounds are ghastly.. and it'd take some force and a hard object to split scalps open like that, in multiple places.

3. If the killer KNEW the kids, they'd likely to trust that person enough to at least get within striking range.

4. No-one really knows *where* the kids were first attacked. Coulda been the back seat of a vehicle, could've been they were all cornered somewhere and couldn't easily bolt off.

5. James Kenney Martin actually outlined in great detail to police, just 2 weeks after the murders, how a pedophile like himself *might* control multiple kids. It's worth a read, if you can stomach it. That guy's WAY up there on my suspect list, for several good reasons.

But yeah, could have also been more than one killer. That's also a possibility.

 

[missy_g]

The multiple perps theory to me goes with the hair transfer on the shoelace theory. In the "cop car" confession even JM said that kids are like puppies. If you threaten them and beat them, they'll do as you say.

Also I want it to be known that I AM NOT star struck by any of the 3. DE gets under my skin to the point that I don't want to read his books, or watch any kind of video with him in it. He totally rubs me the wrong way. Does that make him a killer though? Maybe, maybe not.
Matt Lauer rubs me the wrong way too.

 

[Ausgirl]

Matt Lauer rubs me the wrong way too.

AMEN. He annoys the living crap outta me. Not at all fond of Katie either. The pair of them are just.. aggravating. Lol.

My problem with most of the "WM3-dunnit" arguments is not that I am all swoony for Damien Echols' smug, pasty face and pathological habit of lying, or that I am so mentally deficient as to sheep-like be swayed by the media. My problem is that the original case and trial were SO damned flawed that, guilty or not, it *should have been* a mistrial if anyone involved was actually interested in 'justice' as a concept. I honestly think Jason Baldwin is innocent. My inner jury is still out Echols and to a lesser degree, Misskelley. I think though, there are other, probably better suspects that will never be looked into properly.

 

[ukrberserker23]

Granted, maybe they should have been given a new trial. I really don't think the outcome would have been different. There is more evidence now than back then. DE discussed sacrificing his own newborn with his girlfriend. That does make him a killer. He already had the mindset of a killer. I met some murderes back in my day. When I was in Boy Scouts, we attended a muder trial for 2 weeks. It was much longer than that, but we just went for the time the accused was testifying. He was in a wheel chair, and was guilty as could be. He got off by changing his answer every time they re asked a question. It was the Thurman Dye murder trial back in the late seventies. I got my Law merit badge for going to that trial.Yes, the WMPD could have done a better investigation. But so could just about every other murder trial in the US. They reach a point of diminishing returns. That is why they offered the Alford Plea. It was just going to cost too much to retry them. This case just rips my heart apart because my son is the same age as the victims, and he has already been abused by someone else.Hope the WM3 enjoy their freedom.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The Alford Plea states that the defendants acknowledge that there is enough evidence for the state to convict them. They had to admit this to get the deal. If they know there is enough evidence to convict, then they know they did it..

They knew the state had enough evidence to convict them because....well, they had already been convicted.

 

[Ausgirl]

That is why they offered the Alford Plea. It was just going to cost too much to retry them.

I actually don't think that's why at all. It was all the publicity the mistakes and misbehaviour of LE and the court got, including all that business with the witness, the issue of coerced confession, the business with the corrupt drug squad and all its connections, the stupidity of the 'satanic' angle, ALL of it was getting a lot of very loud airplay across the nation, and causing a lot of red faces in West Memphis. Some very large cans of worms were opened. They had no choice but to shut all of that up - the least reason for it being the need for a new trial - and did so in a way that prevented them from having their asses sued off.

I honestly, genuinely do not understand how anyone can refuse to see that plea for what it was.

 

[missy_g]

Being in that situation, I don't think anyone would refuse that plea. I don't get why nons use that plea as evidence of their guilt.

 

[ukrberserker23]

There are many types of people who could do this crime. The movies painted these guys as misunderstood outsiders who liked Heavy Metal. To me, DE convicts himself by the things written in his journals. That, and the fact that none of their alibis hold water.And when the cops went to arrest JB and DE, they were found hiding under a bed. Innocent people don't need to hide.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Let me ask you all something.

Would the prosecutor of this case really allow 3 violent child killers out of prison to roam the streets freely?

This prosecutor would fight tooth and nail to keep them behind bars but he did not. He let them out.

Isn't the state now responsible of one of these three violent killers kills again?

Why would the state allow them to walk free?

Why would the state make this deal with them and have part of the deal be that they can't sue the state?

Just asking. I look forward to your replies.

Tricia

I see the afford plea as a belated plea deal, they did 18+ years for a crime they committed as teens. I see the crime as an act of bullying / terrorism that got out of hand with each older boy outdoing the other, so I don't think the time they served was unreasonable. Yes, if one of these men kills again there would be hell to pay, but I think it's unlikely, although I wonder about what Damien is still capable of. I think part of the deal being they can't sue the state is self protective, if you were Arkansas and could put that stipulation in of course you would. I'm sure if the WM3 find any loophole in that agreement at any stage that they will still try to do it. They were lucky the filmmakers came along with the angle they did .. how many other killers would love that kind of sympathetic marketing machine?

 

[Ausgirl]

I cannot believe for one moment that, if the original case proved guilt beyond doubt, those three men would not have seen their full sentences carried out. Could anyone ever forget those three little boys, the horrendous details of their deaths? It's a scar on the memory of the state, a wound they are not allowed to ignore, if they wanted to. Allowing the Alford plea was a risk to to several prominent public office careers -- it must have been deemed worth it.

Yes, the WM3 are lucky indeed to have had the terrible policework that put them in prison exposed to the light, and that the pressure this created enabled them to walk free from injustice.

The only unpunished crimes here, aside from the farce of the original trial, is that they were not pardoned, and that no-one can now pursue the case properly, in the name of saving a few state employees from further embarrassment.

 

[ukrberserker23]

Well, if those of you who claim to have followed the case from the start have ever looked at the evidence, then there is something wrong with your judgement faculties. DE has a psych profile of over 500 pages. Have you read his journals? How he and his girlfriend at the time of the murders planned to sacrifice their own baby after it was born. JMB and TH may look like good suspects, but as I pointed out before, doubtful if any single suspect could control three boys at once. JM confessed in under 2 hours, not the 12 hours stated in the mockumentaries. What about the boots of JM? On Callahan's it shows a picture of old muddy boots with almost new laces. Maybe because the old ones were used to tie up the victims. What about the lake knife that was owned by DE? it was demonstrated that the "bite mark" could have been made by the butt end of the knife. The x mark in the middle of the " bite mark" was made by the steel pin in the center of the compass in the handle. No one but the judge, the police, and the people at the trials ever saw the real evidence until after the convictions.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

(snipped)And when the cops went to arrest JB and DE, they were found hiding under a bed. Innocent people don't need to hide.

Respectfully, DE and JB were very young and knew they were being accused of being devil worshipping murderers of 3 little boys. I think that ESPECIALLY in that situation, innocent people would want to hide.

 

[Ausgirl]

Well, if those of you who claim to have followed the case from the start have ever looked at the evidence, then there is something wrong with your judgement faculties.

.....wut