Christmas Day Significance

[DeeDee249]

Yes, exectly!...on JB's cheek. This round one, 'burn'-like, so called 'abrasion' by AR. Was it made by ring which Patsy used to wear with the stone inside her palm?; or by the botton from her jacket when JB was carry-on or straggled or strangled?...very much interesting to know the dimention and position of these buttons.

There was a photo posted here quite a while ago (years) showing Patsy wearing a large "cocktail" -stye ring with multiple stones. The ring was top-heavy and Patsy was shown with the ring having swung around on her finger so that it was against her palm. But of course, there was no matching of that ring to the mark on her cheek.

As far as the red fibers vs the black and gray- it isn't often seen, but there WERE also black and gray fibers found, I believe.
As far as the Rs being asked about owning a Santa suit- they were asked about it and admitted they did own one that JR wore to play Santa at Access Graphics.

 

[BOESP]

<snip>

With Kolar, he knew everything when he wrote his book. He read ALL GJ testimonies, he read all LE and DA documents. And I'm not surprized that after his book got published - we got 'GJ leak' indicating that BOTH Ramseys are guilty.


jmo

(Purple italics mine) Hey there OM4U. It's my day to be a nag. :blushing:

I read Kolar's book but I've forgotten about him saying he read all the Grand Jury testimonies. Or did he say that in one of Tricia's interviews? Am I having a senior moment (aw, heck, make that a senior week :waitasec.

 

[OpenMind4U]

(Purple italics mine) Hey there OM4U. It's my day to be a nag. :blushing:

I read Kolar's book but I've forgotten about him saying he read all the Grand Jury testimonies. Or did he say that in one of Tricia's interviews? Am I having a senior moment (aw, heck, make that a senior week :waitasec.

BOESP,

Kolar never said (not in his book and not on Tricia radio show) that he did read all GJ testimonies. The reasons why I'm sure 'he did read them' are follows:

- Kolar has been hired by DA after GJ returned their indictment in 1999. DA knew about GJ 'true bill' in 1999, public doesn't. Agree?

- next, the GJ Rule 6 secrecy of all testimonies (except in special federal cases), requires FULL secrecy, no disclosure WHILE GJ procedure is in process. However, as soon as GJ has delivered their 'true bill'/indictment, the law of disclosure vary, from state to state. This is from 2004 article:

Records of federal grand jury proceedings remain confidential “to the extent and as long as necessary to prevent the unauthorized disclosure of a matter occurring before a grand jury,” according to Rule 6(e)(6) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. It is left to the court to determine when to release such records.

Access to state grand jury transcripts varies. In California, transcripts of grand jury testimony become public record once an indictment is returned, unless a defendant can show a reasonable likelihood that release of part or all of the transcripts would prejudice his right to a fair trial.

http://www.rcfp.org/secret-justice-grand-juries/access-grand-jury-information-and-material

- in addition, as soon as 'GJ leak' happened last month, cynic made an excellent work in search what public CAN or CANNOT see in regards of GJ testimonies. Here is his thread with all his findings on this subject:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10215"]Lacy lied in documents to Supreme Court & we can now request Ramsey Grand Jury files! - Forums For Justice[/ame]


- so, after GJ indictment, PUBLIC can ask for transcript. But GOVERNMENT doesn't need to ask. DA have it all, on their desk, after 1999 indictment;

- last but not least...Kolar has been hired in 2006 by DA...and not long after (2008), he submits his 'Theory for Prosecution'. The reason why this 'theory' is not in book is because in 2012 (when his book has been published) the PUBLIC has no clue about GJ result (or should I say public was duped with LIES!)...so, he did made hint in book or on Tricia radio (sorry, couldn't remember where exectly) that he cannot talk about because it involves GJ information.

So, when I made 'I'm sure he read GJ testimonies...' remark in my post - I was assuming and I mean it!.....:great:

....until someone proof me wrong, of course!.......

jmo

 

[ukrberserker]

In the Pre-Christian pagan world, it was a day of ritual sacrifice. When the Roman emporers pushed Christianity on their empire, they couldn't get the population to stop celebrating Saturnalia. So they just incorporated it into the new state religion. Frazer's Golden Bough outlines this, as do many other sources. The modern Illuminati still use this as a day of sacrifice. If you don't believe this, just Google deaths on the 25th, or famous deaths on the 25th. You will also notice a lot of so called suicides on this date, as well as mysterious car crashes.I firmly believe there is a deep Satanic, occult connection to this murder.John Ramsey was a member of Theta Chi fraternity in college, and probably a Mason, or a member of a Satanic group.

 

[midwest mama]

Other oddities about the Ramsey 1996 Christmas:

Patsy was "talked into" having a party at their home on the 23rd, from which a bogus 911 call was made. Fleet White claimed to be trying to arrange for medication for his mother who was in nursing care. A care facility would have been quite capable of keeping medication managed well enough that a family member would not have to become involved after hours on a weekday, unless it was an emergency. The R's did not respond to the officer arriving at their door - it was handled by Susan Stine. BPD did not respond with the proper protocol of requesting entrance into the home to make a determination of need for assistance.

JB was described as being seen alone at this party, sitting on a stairway, in a tearful state because of "not feeling pretty". Not typical of the way she was usually described by most who knew her.

Don Paugh took a stand-by flight out on the 24th to return to Georgia where Nedra was. He attended the party on the 23rd. Don and Nedra had previously been known to be at the Ramsey home on Christmas morning to share the festivity. IMHO, something is amiss in the family dynamic.

On Christmas Eve day, JB told a friend and her mother, Barbara Kostaniak, that Santa promised her another visit after Christmas, and she was quite clear that she knew Santa was also due to come that evening (the 24th) as well.

Patsy's choice of Purple as her decorating color:
From the GodWeb site:
Purple speaks of fasting, faith, patience and trust. It is the liturgical color used during seasons of penance, Advent and Lent.
(Definition of penance:Voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong).

John Ramsey gave Patsy (as well as Santa to JB) a new bike for Christmas.
Really - a bike from a millionaire to his socialite wife? There were bike tracks found in the yard on the 26th, leading away from the Ramsey home, and Patsy's new bike was never accounted for after that.

The older Ramsey children were scheduled to join the family for their FIRST EVER Christmas gathering at the Michigan house on the 26th. They were to use 'cheap flights' (at JR's request) from Atlanta to Minneaopolis, get picked up by the Ramsey plane which was readied by JR himself on the 25th, but had private pilots reserved as well, then proceeding to Michigan. The gathering was 'squeezed' into a short time frame, evidently, since the Ramsey's then had commercial flights scheduled on the 28th to Florida from Denver for their family Disney cruise in celebration of Patsy's 40th birthday.

Again: First ever Michigan family gathering, arriving midday 26th, probably departing end of day 27th, to get Ramseys home in order to take flights out on 28th, since they had to return to gather luggage, etc. that Patsy had prepared for the trip. Not much time devoted to the older kids, yet Patsy had made arrangements for the house in Michigan to be opened, cleaned, readied, and professionally decorated by a florist. At least there wasn't much expense spared, which they certainly could afford, but why was it so important for John to want those older kids with them that year when there was such a shortage of time? And, Patsy wasn't really relishing that extra trip either.

Another question, has it ever been determined how the older kids were to return to Atlanta from Michigan? Was the plan for them to return the same way as they would have arrived - private plane to Minneapolis, then commercial flight to Atlanta? If cheap tickets were the goal, then this would have made the most sense. Or, were they supposed to go from Michigan to Atlanta, and have a quick visit with the Paugh's before going back to Colorado?

The shirt JB was found in sported a single silver star. Though we know, by Patsy's testimony, that she and JB disagreed over what she would wear to the White's, and Patsy relented in letting her wear that shirt, that really is heresy. Here is some interesting information found about a paganistic group: Thelema is a complicated set of magical, mystical and religious beliefs formed in the 20th century by Aleister Crowley. Today it is embraced by a variety of occult groups including the Ordo Templis Orientis (O.T.O.) and Argenteum Astrum (A:.A:.), the Order of the Silver Star.
Basic Beliefs: The Great Work -Striving to ascend to higher states of existence, uniting oneself with higher powers, and understanding and embracing one's True Will, their ultimate purpose and place in life. The Law of Thelema - "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." "Thou wilt" here means to live by ones own True Will. One of the Holiday Celebrations of this group: Rituals of the Elements and Feasts of the Times, celebrated on the equinoxes and solstices". (Christmas evolved as a celebration of the winter solstice) and, from a wikipedia article: The Christmas tree is considered by some as Christianisation of pagan tradition and ritual surrounding the Winter Solstice, which included the use of evergreen boughs, and an adaptation of pagan tree worship.

And there were how many Christmas trees in the Ramsey home?

 

[ukrberserker]

The real problem I have with the whole case is work/time study. If we accept TOD as midnite, they had about 5 hours to do everything. Make Patsy's bike disappear, stage the crime scene, plant misleading evidence around the house, throw a softball bat around the side of the house, throw a golf club behind the house, etc. I believe RDI, but I now think there had to be someone else helping them. Possibly DS, or maybe JAR. Just too many things to accomplish in a 5 hour time span. I hope someday there will be a conviction in the case, but I doubt there will. I'm also sure that every member of most occult groups out there know RDI. They left their calling cards all over.

 

[UKGuy]

The real problem I have with the whole case is work/time study. If we accept TOD as midnite, they had about 5 hours to do everything. Make Patsy's bike disappear, stage the crime scene, plant misleading evidence around the house, throw a softball bat around the side of the house, throw a golf club behind the house, etc. I believe RDI, but I now think there had to be someone else helping them. Possibly DS, or maybe JAR. Just too many things to accomplish in a 5 hour time span. I hope someday there will be a conviction in the case, but I doubt there will. I'm also sure that every member of most occult groups out there know RDI. They left their calling cards all over.

ukrberserker,
There were to many unexplained time gaps. Since we know the majority of the staging was done at the last minute, i.e. between 4 am and 6 am!

Yet JonBenet died around 12:00.

It appears to me that one person asphyxiated JonBenet, possibly the same person whacked her on the head to stage her death, as an accident get that she fell down the stairs momma and hurt her head! And we found some nice underwear for her too, except its size-12, now what age group might not care about that thinking the day of the week was more important?

There were likely many staging events by different people and as the mistakes were found they kept changing things until they arrived at a eureka moment and said she has been kidnapped!


.

 

[DeeDee249]

All the experts who have studied the case - who were actually INVOLVED in it-concur that the head bash came first. The bash was not staging. The strangulation could have been.

 

[ukrberserker]

The inference I drew from the coroner's report was that the head bash came when JBR was already dead or dying. That was the reason the brain didn't swell up. That's what the doctor said, not me. I'm not a doctor, but I have had the Death Investigation course from my university. I'm not arguing, just trying to make sense of the evidence. Therein lies the problem. We have to know what order each injury occurred in, because it would change the location of the attack.

 

[Nom de plume]

ukrberserker,
There were to many unexplained time gaps. Since we know the majority of the staging was done at the last minute, i.e. between 4 am and 6 am!

Yet JonBenet died around 12:00.

It appears to me that one person asphyxiated JonBenet, possibly the same person whacked her on the head to stage her death, as an accident get that she fell down the stairs momma and hurt her head! And we found some nice underwear for her too, except its size-12, now what age group might not care about that thinking the day of the week was more important?

There were likely many staging events by different people and as the mistakes were found they kept changing things until they arrived at a eureka moment and said she has been kidnapped!


.

Ok, I guess I missed something big. How do we KNOW the majority of the staging was done between 4 & 6 am?

 

[UKGuy]

All the experts who have studied the case - who were actually INVOLVED in it-concur that the head bash came first. The bash was not staging. The strangulation could have been.

DeeDee249;,
Nope the sexual assault came first. During this assault JonBenet was restrained by her throat by the end of the assault she was in a coma?

The rest is staging, with the head bash a first attempt at staging. Her assailant probably intended to say JonBenet fell down the stairs. Same person redressed her in the size-12's, so to hide the sexual assault.

I reckon the head bash and the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush handle asphyxiation are both staging.

By definition the experts do not know what happened before the head bash.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

The inference I drew from the coroner's report was that the head bash came when JBR was already dead or dying. That was the reason the brain didn't swell up. That's what the doctor said, not me. I'm not a doctor, but I have had the Death Investigation course from my university. I'm not arguing, just trying to make sense of the evidence. Therein lies the problem. We have to know what order each injury occurred in, because it would change the location of the attack.

The doctor didn't say the head bash came when she was already dead or dying. His notation on the minimal swelling indicate she died before more swelling or organization of the injury could form. This indicates that she died relatively soon after the head bash but does not indicate it came after teh strangulation. In fact had she been dead already, there would be NO bleeding or flattening/narrowing of the sulci or gyri.
The coroner felt both contributed to her death, and listed them in association with each other- not indicating which came first, but that each played a part in causing her death. A coroner should be able to tell when an injury was caused after death. The edges of bone would not show healing, for example.
The truth is - we just don't know for sure where the attacks occurred. We have THREE separate kinds of assaults- a sexual assault with penetration and enough force to cause bleeding. A horrific blunt force trauma depressed fracture closed scalp injury with a linear fracture. And a ligature strangulation. There is some evidence the strangulation (thought to have been the final thing that ended her life) may have happened in the basement on a carpeted area just outside the wine cellar. The paint tote, still holding a piece of the broken brush that formed the garrote handle, was nearby some creatine stains on the carpet. There were anterior urine stains on her clothing consistent with her being on her stomach when her bladder voided at death. But this has never been confirmed by LE. There were allegedly some small blood droplets on the pillow in her room. But again, not that has been publicly confirmed.
The crime scene was never properly secured, and was allowed to be contaminated from the beginning. But he house was also turned back over to the family MUCH too soon. It was "purchased" by a sham group of R "investors" and completely whitewashed literally as well as figuratively. Every carpet pulled up, every wall stripped of wallpaper and painted white.
So unfortunately there are some things that will never be known for sure.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249;,
Nope the sexual assault came first. During this assault JonBenet was restrained by her throat by the end of the assault she was in a coma?

The rest is staging, with the head bash a first attempt at staging. Her assailant probably intended to say JonBenet fell down the stairs. Same person redressed her in the size-12's, so to hide the sexual assault.

I reckon the head bash and the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush handle asphyxiation are both staging.

By definition the experts do not know what happened before the head bash.


.

I wasn't including the sexual assault. Of course I know that came first- it is likely what precipitated the scream- and retaliatory head bash. I was referring to the two causes of death- strangulation and head bash. I see no reason to conclude the head bash was staging. It was not visible- surprising even those attending the autopsy when it was discovered. Staging a crime scene can only involve leaving VISIBLE clues or indications as to what is wanted to be portrayed. So to me, with all the staging there was- the head bash was not part of it.

 

[midwest mama]

Bear with me. After reading DOI, I can actually say I'm glad I did. It became clear to me much more than ever before that the Christmas holidays for the Ramseys in 1996 were loaded with more responsibilities than most people would consider enjoying.

The most profound impression I got from DOI is how devastated JR was over Beth's death. He suffered greatly and spent quite a bit of time in his book "remembering" many things and connections to Beth. It almost seemed like the book was as nearly as much about her loss as JB's. John was still crying in his car on the way home from work at times over the loss of Beth during the last weeks before losing JB. He was inconsolable at home at times, so much that even Patsy did not know how she might try to comfort him. He was using prescription medications to help him sleep.

If JR was molesting JB and her death was an act to end the possibility of him being exposed, is it possible that the Christmas season closed in on him hard enough that he decided that since JB would have to die, he would at least usher her to Beth's side as a Christmas offering to Beth? Patsy used the color purple, which might have brought the idea of 'penance' to mind, somehow making JR think that JB's death would serve some positive purpose if she was with her sister for Christmas - both of the girls might be happier if that were true?

From Steve Thomas' book:
"Long said that John Ramsey climbed into a van with him and John Andrew and told them that JonBenét &#8220;was with Beth now.&#8221;

 

[UKGuy]

I wasn't including the sexual assault. Of course I know that came first- it is likely what precipitated the scream- and retaliatory head bash. I was referring to the two causes of death- strangulation and head bash. I see no reason to conclude the head bash was staging. It was not visible- surprising even those attending the autopsy when it was discovered. Staging a crime scene can only involve leaving VISIBLE clues or indications as to what is wanted to be portrayed. So to me, with all the staging there was- the head bash was not part of it.

DeeDee249,
Its staging in the sense that the we know the ligature cord *advertiser censored* paintbrush handle is staging.

Although the head injury is cited as a contibuting factor in the cause of death. The head injury can be viewed as a first attempt to kill JonBenet, one which failed?

Staging a crime scene can only involve leaving VISIBLE clues or indications as to what is wanted to be portrayed. So to me, with all the staging there was- the head bash was not part of it.

I think this was the intention behind the head bash, i.e. to leave a visible cause for JonBenet being unconcious or dead. When this failed they moved on to the ligature.

I think someone was sexually molesting JonBenet when her molester heard another family member close by, he restrained JonBenet around the neck, possibly by tightening her shirt collar, or using his arm around her neck?

.

 

[wengr]

I think someone was sexually molesting JonBenet when her molester heard another family member close by, he restrained JonBenet around the neck, possibly by tightening her shirt collar, or using his arm around her neck?

.

That sir, is a very compelling idea.

 

[UKGuy]

That sir, is a very compelling idea.

wengr,
Thanks, I arrived at it because I could not factor the head bash into any theory.

There appears to be a definite sequence of events, i.e. molestation, head bash, ligature asphyxiation.

Now lets assume the person molesting JonBenet has done it before, so on prior occassions a head injury was not required.

Given the size of JonBenet a head bash was not needed to incapacitate her, or restrain her, a hand over her mouth would silence her?

The only theory a head bash fits in is where there was the premeditated intention to sexually assault then kill JonBenet by inflicting head injury.

The latter theory seems to apply more to an intruder type scenario, so I find it improbable.

So currently I hold the view that the death of JonBenet was a sexual assault gone wrong.

.

 

[midwest mama]

wengr,
Thanks, I arrived at it because I could not factor the head bash into any theory.

There appears to be a definite sequence of events, i.e. molestation, head bash, ligature asphyxiation.

Now lets assume the person molesting JonBenet has done it before, so on prior occassions a head injury was not required.

Given the size of JonBenet a head bash was not needed to incapacitate her, or restrain her, a hand over her mouth would silence her?

The only theory a head bash fits in is where there was the premeditated intention to sexually assault then kill JonBenet by inflicting head injury.

The latter theory seems to apply more to an intruder type scenario, so I find it improbable.

So currently I hold the view that the death of JonBenet was a sexual assault gone wrong.

.

Sexual assault gone wrong, you're in good company with a couple of other top forensics experts. Those same experts see the head bash coming in close timing to the ligature strangulation, which should seemingly rule out BDI, since that sort of struggle seems like it would require more adult type strength.

If JB was beginning to 'talk' outside of the home to others about molestation, then premeditation is also a possibility.

How I wish we had more substantiated reports from those teachers who said she told them about very scary happenings which included her father.

 

[UKGuy]

Sexual assault gone wrong, you're in good company with a couple of other top forensics experts. Those same experts see the head bash coming in close timing to the ligature strangulation, which should seemingly rule out BDI, since that sort of struggle seems like it would require more adult type strength.

If JB was beginning to 'talk' outside of the home to others about molestation, then premeditation is also a possibility.

How I wish we had more substantiated reports from those teachers who said she told them about very scary happenings which included her father.

midwest mama,
Yes sexual assault gone wrong seems to be the best minimal fit theory. Patently it need not be correct, but in the absence of some of the critical forensic evidence, its difficult to promote another theory, e.g. PDI.

I seriously doubt it was premeditated. The amateurish staging and conflicting verbal accounts offered by JR, do not seem to add up to a premeditated homicide. He would have been more methodical and clinical, and would more than likely have dumped JonBenet away from the house.

which should seemingly rule out BDI, since that sort of struggle seems like it would require more adult type strength.

There may have been no struggle. JonBenet may have been held in a chokehold resulting in unconsiousness by collapsing the carotid arteries.

I think the contusions visible on JonBenet's neck lying beneath the circumferential furrow represent someone applying either a chokehold or manual compression to JonBenet's neck at the time of her sexual assault?

Once I have access to Kolar's book, I'll be able to refine this theory since he has updated some of the forensic evidence.


.

 

[madeleine]

was just wondering......maybe poor JR had to do two stagings?
one to fool his wife,one to fool LE?and it got a bit complicated?(hence the contradictions?)