Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia

[Shadowboxer]

Plenty there.

Particularly about M and the rehab centre at Wellard.

Droc's initial claims were his suspicions regarding the alibi for the CG abduction.

NOT the JR abduction referred to above.

That sounds like a suss alibi for both nights now if what Droc claimed and Buckley determined was true. Silly man thinking he was eliminated on DNA - and then constantly drawing attention to himself thereafter. Wonder how those new DNA profiles are going?

Also how the alibis of the three men and the woman line up on the nights in question and days following?

We already know Droc himself had a weak alibi - on self admission on BF he was either at home with TT and his gf or working on night security.

Don't buy the same night disposal theory at all. If what was claimed in the book about the decomposition was true, no way forensics could tell a 12-24 hours window variation.

Interesting.

Are you suggesting that Droc was involved with TT and others in the crime and has then tried to distance himself by making those claims? I would find this believable.

I also don't buy into the same night dumping of the bodies with that much time between abduction and the bodies being found. I think there had to of been an intermediary place where the csk done his thing. Wonder what makes macro so sure this is the case? Could be another red herring.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Curious as to whether you knew Droc and know any of his associates personally, and why you felt you needed to delete your video after it was found and brought to your attention, given as you claim it was all so innocent?

1. No and no. I first had contact with him when he came on BF. Never heard of him before that. Don't know anyone he knows. I'm a lot younger than him and grew up in a different area in different circles.
2. Because peanuts like you think there is something sinister going on and you're passing it around to everyone via PM. It was a video I posted fixing an external ink system for a consumer grade injet printer. I then called him, directed him to the video, and walked him through. There's absolutely nothing in it and that video has been removed.

Is there anything else you'd like to say? Do you have any other questions?

Let's get this done and dusted now.

 

[catswhiskers]

You might notice there aren't too many other WS members (who are active in other threads) who post here anymore - the thread has been very hard to follow for some time now. I have persevered with reading daily from the start, though have to admit to being lost for quite a while - and it's the dynamics between some posters, strange personal insights and references to connections with various supposed persons of interest and/or members from the locked BF thread, that make it the most cryptic, and sometimes creepy, thread I have ever seen here on WS.
Throw some thinly veiled accusations about another poster's intentions into the mix, and you are heading in the same direction as the BF thread - threads are locked here for far less.

 

[bessie]

How do I post a pic?

I know they said her body was very badly decomposed which is possibly why they say she was there the full 8 weeks, but how accurate is that given the decomp? I wouldn't want to question actual scientific techniques and maybe she was there, I just find it highly improbable given the reasons I've listed.

Analysis of insect colonization and decomp materials in surrounding soil are two methods used to determine post mortem interval (PMI), and the interval during which a cadaver has been in a particular location. To note, neither is a perfect science, and variables apply.

(GRAPHIC CONTENT)

Forensic entomology is used most commonly to determine time since death. However, insects can provide other important information about a crime or victim. For example, insects can provide details about a person's life before they died. Because development is predictable depending on specific factors, the use of drugs can change the lifecycle timing of an insect.

[...]
1. The presence of insects on the body that are not found in the area suggests the body was moved, and may indicate the type of area where the murder took place.
2. If the insect cycle is disturbed, it may suggest that the killer returned to the scene of the crime. The entomologist may be able to estimate the date of death and possibly the date of the return of the killer.
3. If maggot activity occurs away from a natural opening, this may indicate a wound. For example, maggots on the palm of the hands suggest defence wounds...

[...]
LIMITATIONS OF FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY:
1. Time of death estimates depend on accurate temperature information, but local weather patterns can be variable and data may come from stations quite distant from the crime scene.
2. Forensic entomology relies on insect abundance. In winter, there are fewer insects and entomology's use is limited.
3. Since it takes time to rear insects, forensic entomology cannot produce immediate results.
4. Treatments (like freezing, burial or wrapping) that exclude insects can affect estimates.
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

Soil chemistry under decomposing or dry remains of pigs and humans have been used to estimate post mortem interval (PMI) [2–4]
http://pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Aitkenhead_Peterson_2011.pdf

Typically, isotope analysis can prove to be particularly beneficial in establishing the likely age of remains. Isotopes are atoms of the same element, and with the same chemical properties, but differing in the number of neutrons within the nucleus (and thus have a slightly different atomic mass). Among the most common elements to be studied in isotope analysis are carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, strontium and hydrogen. This branch of study, which can be focussed upon unstable or stable isotopes, is based on the principle that many elements within the body exist as various isotopes, many of which are taken into the body by eating, for instance. Bones and teeth are usually subjected to isotopic analysis in cases of dating skeletonised human remains, though if present hair and nails may also be used.
http://aboutforensics.co.uk/forensic-anthropology/

[...]
Understanding the life cycle of blow flies is extremely useful for murder investigations. Forensic entomologists, such as Watson, can determine approximately when insects found the corpse based on the blow flies' stage of development and the size of the maggots. This is different from estimating time of death, because multiple factors can influence the time of insect arrival. For example, a body could be stored in an airtight cooler for several days before being dumped in a field.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111101125816.htm

[...]
Soils—typically used by forensic science to link objects and persons with crime scenes—have since been shown to help locate clandestine graves1 and estimate time since death.2 This article will discuss soil characteristics for identifying the likelihood of a burial in soil, the breakdown of a cadaver in contact with soil, and the preservation of bone in soil. If soil morphological characteristics can help determine the likelihood of a burial and differential preservation, then it may be possible to make predictions prior to excavation using soil survey information.
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/02/soil-characteristics-impact-clandestine-graves

 

[bessie]

You might notice there aren't too many other WS members (who are active in other threads) who post here anymore - the thread has been very hard to follow for some time now. I have persevered with reading daily from the start, though have to admit to being lost for quite a while - and it's the dynamics between some posters, strange personal insights and references to connections with various supposed persons of interest and/or members from the locked BF thread, that make it the most cryptic, and sometimes creepy, thread I have ever seen here on WS.
Throw some thinly veiled accusations about another poster's intentions into the mix, and you are heading in the same direction as the BF thread - threads are locked here for far less.

Agreed. Nevertheless, I'm doing my best to ensure this thread remains open for the interested posters. Cooperation is key, however, and we've yet to reach the 100% mark, but we're getting closer.

 

[Shadowboxer]

Analysis of insect colonization and decomp materials in surrounding soil are two methods used to determine post mortem interval (PMI), and the interval during which a cadaver has been in a particular location. To note, neither is a perfect science, and variables apply.

(GRAPHIC CONTENT)

Forensic entomology is used most commonly to determine time since death. However, insects can provide other important information about a crime or victim. For example, insects can provide details about a person's life before they died. Because development is predictable depending on specific factors, the use of drugs can change the lifecycle timing of an insect.

[...]
1. The presence of insects on the body that are not found in the area suggests the body was moved, and may indicate the type of area where the murder took place.
2. If the insect cycle is disturbed, it may suggest that the killer returned to the scene of the crime. The entomologist may be able to estimate the date of death and possibly the date of the return of the killer.
3. If maggot activity occurs away from a natural opening, this may indicate a wound. For example, maggots on the palm of the hands suggest defence wounds...

[...]
LIMITATIONS OF FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY:
1. Time of death estimates depend on accurate temperature information, but local weather patterns can be variable and data may come from stations quite distant from the crime scene.
2. Forensic entomology relies on insect abundance. In winter, there are fewer insects and entomology's use is limited.
3. Since it takes time to rear insects, forensic entomology cannot produce immediate results.
4. Treatments (like freezing, burial or wrapping) that exclude insects can affect estimates.
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

Soil chemistry under decomposing or dry remains of pigs and humans have been used to estimate post mortem interval (PMI) [2–4]
http://pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Aitkenhead_Peterson_2011.pdf

Typically, isotope analysis can prove to be particularly beneficial in establishing the likely age of remains. Isotopes are atoms of the same element, and with the same chemical properties, but differing in the number of neutrons within the nucleus (and thus have a slightly different atomic mass). Among the most common elements to be studied in isotope analysis are carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, strontium and hydrogen. This branch of study, which can be focussed upon unstable or stable isotopes, is based on the principle that many elements within the body exist as various isotopes, many of which are taken into the body by eating, for instance. Bones and teeth are usually subjected to isotopic analysis in cases of dating skeletonised human remains, though if present hair and nails may also be used.
http://aboutforensics.co.uk/forensic-anthropology/

[...]
Understanding the life cycle of blow flies is extremely useful for murder investigations. Forensic entomologists, such as Watson, can determine approximately when insects found the corpse based on the blow flies' stage of development and the size of the maggots. This is different from estimating time of death, because multiple factors can influence the time of insect arrival. For example, a body could be stored in an airtight cooler for several days before being dumped in a field.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111101125816.htm

[...]
Soils—typically used by forensic science to link objects and persons with crime scenes—have since been shown to help locate clandestine graves1 and estimate time since death.2 This article will discuss soil characteristics for identifying the likelihood of a burial in soil, the breakdown of a cadaver in contact with soil, and the preservation of bone in soil. If soil morphological characteristics can help determine the likelihood of a burial and differential preservation, then it may be possible to make predictions prior to excavation using soil survey information.
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/02/soil-characteristics-impact-clandestine-graves

Very interesting read Bessie, thank you.

 

[JMC44]

Despite the lack of any information re the case being released of recent, the discussion over the last 10 pages or so on this thread has been productive and insightful. I had not contemplated the possibility that the three women were maybe placed at their final site days or weeks after their disappearance. However, I still think, despite the proximity of JR to an accessible road, that all three were killed and disposed of hours after their abduction. It just seems unfeasible that the CSK held on to JR's and CG's body once their disappearance was made public and searches were being executed for them. The taxi sighting in Eglington troubles me somewhat, and so does the fact that SR had SS in his taxi the night before she disappeared. Because, if it wasn't for these two things, I would be unequivocal in my belief that Judoman is the one. I think someone mentioned once that all three disappearances occurred on weekends - suggesting that the perpetrator was a professional who had weekends off. This, along with other things, fits Judoman's situation.

 

[Sutton]

yeah stuff gets deleted all the time.

can be quite comical going back and rereading because nothing is in context anymore...

Thanks AJ...I'll aim not to read this thread so regularly! It's not the first nor second time that I've noticed this has happened.

Yeah, stuff gets deleted all the time because it's against the TOS. But the same posters keep on posting the same stuff.

I'm not a hall monitor, and am all for gently pushing the rules (on occasion). But this thread takes the cake. Stop posting blatant TOS violations. Then mods don't have to scrutinize the posts and readers can attempt to follow the thread.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Musings about Debi Marshall - The Devils Garden - Part 2 of 2

Page 184 - Con Bayens who headed up Operarion Bounty gets a mention. The recent Sunday Night epsiode is all here. It's almost verbatim. It is apparent that recent story was rehashed from this book.

I wonder if this was Donald Morey (the prime suspect in the Sarah McMahon case). I also wonder where this whole thing went? Did they do any surveillance on this guy because he looked good to go. Did they interview him for Lisa Brown and other prostitutes that went missing?

Page 192 - Apparently a man named Frank Silas and two other men who called themselves CARK (Citizens for Apprehension of the Real Killer) called a press conference because they weren't happy happy with Macro's inaction.

Anyone know about this?

Page 222 - Robin Napper's opinion is that there would be precursor crimes to the killing (I think that's plain common sense and nothing that anyone doesn't know) and if Macro look hard enough this guy will be on their system. Maybe previous crimes in the area, or even previous complaints of a sexual nature, or a speeding ticket.

Police claim they checked all this and there's no reason to think this isn't the case. As the CSK is thought to be well organised, did police check all the people who filled their car up at a local service statio earlier that day in preparation? Did they check all people who had their car detailed within 2 weeks of the crime in case the CSK did his own clean and then did a second professional clean to be thorough?

Page 244 - Steven Ross is also known as Steven Clegg

Page 247 - PW advised SR not to go to police and tell them he had Spiers in his cab the previous night.

Page 265 - Police tel DM that the bodies were so decomposed that the opportunity to get DNA was very limited. Police also don't confirm that throats were cut but they do say it's highly likely (no ultimate proof because not cuts on flesh or bone, but insect activity strongly points to cutting of the throats)

Page 278 - There was a guy called Paul Anthony Clare who was a prime suspect for some Kings Park rapes. His MO was to tell girls he would safely escort them home. He was ruled out of CSK investigation. But it poses the question;

Did the csk tell his victims they were being followed and offered them safety (Adrian Bayley's MO as well)? When those 3 guys at the bus stop outside HJ's called out to CG that she was mad to hitch hike, did this put into the forefront of her mind that it was dangerous and upon being maybe told by the driver of that car "hey, there's a guy back there following you", did she jump in?

Page 292 - Pipidinny was teeming with ticks. Did the police check all medical centres in Perth for anyone who had to have ticks removed or a tick infection? I real long shot, but sometimes it would be these longshots that might shed light on a new avenue of investigation. This does depend if ticks are active during night time.

Page 320 - The Phibenator gets a mention! Robin Napper calls Parkie a creepy dude.

<modsnip>

Page 329 - A blogger from Gotcha webite is mentioned. I remember reading this.

Page 337 - Macro try and tell DM that the girls' throats weren't cut. She doesn't believe them and says too many people have indicated that their throats were cut.

Personally, I now belive this to be true at least with JR. I used to think strangulation but have changed my mind.

That means lots of blood in a car, house, or on the ground somewhere.

 

[Bartholemeus]

SS still bugs me.

The CSK nabbed her at 2pm and sunnup was 5am. 3 hours.

A common school of thought is he dumped her near Wellard somewhere. Because her body was undiscovered and appeared this location worked so he left JR there too. Once she was discovered the area was no good so he headed North.

This is quite logical and the DM book implies David Birnie suggested this logic to Paul Ferguson.

But there's the problem of non discovery. I find it hard to believe if her body was left similar to JR and CG that someone would stumble across it in the 20 years since.

Did he bury SS or sink her in water? Which would have taken more time if it was the former.

Or is she closer to the city but better concealed?

 

[Jezz]

SS still bugs me.

The CSK nabbed her at 2pm and sunnup was 5am. 3 hours.

A common school of thought is he dumped her near Wellard somewhere. Because her body was undiscovered and appeared this location worked so he left JR there too. Once she was discovered the area was no good so he headed North.

This is quite logical and the DM book implies David Birnie suggested this logic to Paul Ferguson.

But there's the problem of non discovery. I find it hard to believe if her body was left similar to JR and CG that someone would stumble across it in the 20 years since.

Did he bury SS or sink her in water? Which would have taken more time if it was the former.

Or is she closer to the city but better concealed?

I would suggest it's the opposite. There is no person of sound mind that would think a body dumped on the side of a road would not be found. We are talking being able to be seen from the road for JR at least and right off a walking track for CG. I think it's more likely these spots were chosen because they would be found but after a little while because they were partially concealed. He wanted them to be found but after the elements had done their work first.

I think SS was a really good attempt to dispose either buried or 'sunk' and is actually backfired because he didn't get the fame he was after. SS was simply a missing person, not ascribed to a killer and so he needed the other girls to be found to get the serial killer badge.

I just can't believe that someone who truly didn't want a body to be found wouldn't bury them deep rather than leave them laying out in the open.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I would suggest it's the opposite. There is no person of sound mind that would think a body dumped on the side of a road would not be found. We are talking being able to be seen from the road for JR at least and right off a walking track for CG. I think it's more likely these spots were chosen because they would be found but after a little while because they were partially concealed. He wanted them to be found but after the elements had done their work first.

I think SS was a really good attempt to dispose either buried or 'sunk' and is actually backfired because he didn't get the fame he was after. SS was simply a missing person, not ascribed to a killer and so he needed the other girls to be found to get the serial killer badge.

I just can't believe that someone who truly didn't want a body to be found wouldn't bury them deep rather than leave them laying out in the open.

Apologies for not been clear. I don't for a second believe the CSK thought the bodies (JR and CG) wouldn't be discovered. Like you, I think he knew they would be found. Of course they would. Whilst you think he dumped them to be found (but not too quickly), I think it's more likely he rationalised that he least percentage play of being caught whilst giving him maximum time with the victims was to dump them in those locations (remote but not too remote as to extend risk of being pulled over, remote but not remote to reduce his time with the victims bcause of travel time, remote enough not to be founf too quickly etc). I'd go a 70/30 split over the two theories.

But that's beside the point.

He clearly didn't dump SS like JR or CG otherwise it's highly likely she would be found. So if Birnie and Ferguson and the populay theory is correct then 2pm pick up, do his business, then needs 45 minutes to drive down there and god knows how long to bury the body. Pretty tight time wise.

Or did he bury or submerge her closer to the city?

 

[Jezz]

I don't really know why everyone is so adamant that he didn't just hold onto them dead or alive for a period of time.

Or perhaps being his first (possibly) kill he was a little clumsy and it was over too quick, giving him time to dispose???

I still say this guy is about the ritual and that takes time.

 

[Shadowboxer]

Pretty sure you mean 2am Bartholemeus not 2pm as you have mentioned a couple of times.

 

[Shadowboxer]

I don't really know why everyone is so adamant that he didn't just hold onto them dead or alive for a period of time.

Or perhaps being his first (possibly) kill he was a little clumsy and it was over too quick, giving him time to dispose???

I still say this guy is about the ritual and that takes time.

agreed

 

[Shadowboxer]

agreed

keep in mind Bessies post and how much info can be gathered from insect activity so I would say weeks are out of the question. But a day or two quite possible.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I don't really know why everyone is so adamant that he didn't just hold onto them dead or alive for a period of time.

Or perhaps being his first (possibly) kill he was a little clumsy and it was over too quick, giving him time to dispose???

I still say this guy is about the ritual and that takes time.

It's because the police have reiterated that they believe the whole thing was done same night. I can see a reason for police supplying misinformation on a lot of things but don't see what advantage they'd get by providing misinformation about this.

It's all so hard to find specific information related to how accurate you can get a time of death after 19 days:

--------------

Most cases that involve a forensic entomologist are 72 h or more old, as up until this time, other forensic methods are equally or more accurate than the insect evidence. However, after three days, insect evidence is often the most accurate and sometimes the only method of determining elapsed time since death.

There are two main ways of using insects to determine elapsed time since death : -
1) using successional waves of insects
2) using maggot age and development.

The method used is determined by the circumstances of each case. In general, the first method is used when the corpse has been dead for between a month up to a year or more, and the second method is used when death occurred less than a month prior to discovery.

Method 1 - used after db is 3-4 weeks old

Is based on the fact that a human body, or any kind of carrion, supports a very rapidly changing ecosystem going from the fresh state to dry bones in a matter of weeks or months depending on geographic region. During this decomposition, the remains go through rapid physical, biological and chemical changes, and different stages of the decomposition are attractive to different species of insects. Certain species of insects are often the first witnesses to a crime. They usually arrive within 24 h of death if the season is suitable i.e. spring, summer or fall in Canada and can arrive within minutes in the presence of blood or other body fluids. These first groups of insects are the Calliphoridae or blowflies and the Sarcophagidae (the fleshflies). Other species are not interested in the corpse when the body is fresh, but are only attracted to the corpse later such as the Piophilidae or cheese skippers which arrive later, during protein fermentation. Some insects are not attracted by the body directly, but arrive to feed on the other insects at the scene. Many species are involved at each decomposition stage and each group of insects overlaps the ones adjacent to it somewhat. Therefore, with a knowledge of the regional insect fauna and times of carrion colonization, the insect assemblage associated with the remains can be analyzed to determine a window of time in which death took place. This method is used when the decedent has been dead from a few weeks up to a year, or in some cases several years after death, with the estimated window of time broadening as time since death increases. It can also be used to indicate the season of death e.g. early summer. A knowledge of insect succession, together with regional, seasonal, habitat and meteorological variations, is required for this method to be successful.


Method 2 - Used up until a db is 1 month old

Is that of using maggot age and development can give a date of death accurate to a day or less, or a range of days, and is used in the first few weeks after death. Maggots are larvae or immature stages of Diptera or two-winged flies. The insects used in this method are those that arrive first on the corpse, that is, the Calliphoridae or blowflies. These flies are attracted to a corpse very soon after death. They lay their eggs on the corpse, usually in a wound, if present, or if not, then in any of the natural orifices. Their development follows a set, predictable, cycle.
The insect egg is laid in batches on the corpse and hatches, after a set period of time, into a first instar (or stage) larva. The larva feeds on the corpse and moults into a second instar larva. The larva continues to feed and develop into a third instar larva. The stage can be determined by size and the number of spiracles (breathing holes). When in the third instar, the larva continues to feed for a while then it stops feeding and wanders away from the corpse, either into the clothes or the soil, to find a safe place to pupate. This non-feeding wandering stage is called a prepupa. The larva then loosens itself from its outer skin, but remains inside. This outer shell hardens, or tans, into a hard protective outer shell, or pupal case, which shields the insect as it metamorphoses into an adult. Freshly formed pupae are pale in colour, but darken to a deep brown in a few hours. After a number of days, an adult fly will emerge from the pupa and the cycle will begin again. When the adult has emerged, the empty pupal case is left behind as evidence that a fly developed and emerged.

source: http://www.sfu.ca/~ganderso/forensicentomology.htm

------------------------

From what I read above, it's touch and go as to whether the entomologists would be able to narrow down TOD to the same night. If he killed them on the first night and kept then inside his house then that would delay insect infestation wouldn't it?

 

[JMC44]

To the people that believe, or consider it possible, that the CSK performed a ritual-type killing and 'took time', do you believe he was still able to dispose of their bodies that same night, or are you saying that he maybe disposed of them days later. Also, are there any public (Facebook etc) profiles of any of the suspects anyone knows of?

 

[Bartholemeus]

To the people that believe, or consider it possible, that the CSK performed a ritual-type killing and 'took time', do you believe he was still able to dispose of their bodies that same night, or are you saying that he maybe disposed of them days later. Also, are there any public (Facebook etc) profiles of any of the suspects anyone knows of?

I think it was me who started using the word "ritual" so just want to clarify exactly what I meant. When I say ritual, I don't mean he dons a devils mask and shakes holy water at his victims whilst chanting in tongues. I was more referring to what he does with them. Does he have sex with them? Does he masturbate? Does he take photos? Does he torture them? etc. I doubt he just kills them and disposes of them. He must do something while he is with them. Whatever that is, is his ritual.

 

[JMC44]

I understood the term 'ritual' was used in a general sense to suggest some sort of act other than mere killing and disposing. I was more interested in the time you or anyone thought the process of killing took. I just cannot fathom the CSK holding onto the bodies for long. Imagine the risk in trying to dispose of a body once a search has began in earnest. I reckon they were at latest disposed of a day after they went missing.

I hope this case is solved. My feeling is the police know who did it, but cannot prove it to the sufficient degree. I wish the police became very vocal, and made many statements regarding the investigation, even cryptic statements, with the families of the victim's consent, that they are close or they are confident that they know who has done it. I think the case will be solved not from physical evidence now, but by tricking the CSK into some form of admission or stupid act.