CO - 1- dead 8-injured after shots fired at STEM School in Highlands Ranch, 7 May 2019

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by BayouBelle_LA, May 7, 2019.

  1. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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    bbm
    IMO, you are pushing the gender thing. You were the first poster to reference this in a negative way. You are keeping this going. I am responding to your posts.
    Yes, it is a big distraction, why do you continue referencing it?

     
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  2. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    For one thing I never said the shooter’s actions make me think anything less about transgender individuals. In fact if you read my posts you’ll see my whole point is the exact opposite. I don’t appreciate you insinuating otherwise.

    That said, unfortunately many people do take things an individual has done and apply that action to a whole community. I will try to find a link that explains this phenomenon. In the meantime, pick any hate group internet site as your link for proof. Blessedly it’s not permitted here for me to point you to one.

    ETA Collective Responsibility (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  3. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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    You've got a lot of "ifs" there. Lots of speculation.
    You insist that if he was using testosterone, that the defense will use that as a defense. Maybe, maybe not.
    Defense typically use whatever they can. Cisgender accused was on steroids, antidepressants, meth, alcohol, etc. We've all seen that.
    But as you said, we don't even know if he was using testosterone.
    And I'm curious, can you cite any criminal cases where trans male used defense of being on testosterone?


    0926"]Snipped for focus.

    No, I don't think this "happened" solely because MEM was choosing to present as a male, or was "transitioning" or any of that. I think it "happened" because MEM decided to steal a gun and shoot up the school.

    It has been written in media articles that MEM was "transitioning" from female to male. We have no idea what that term actually means, or what kind of supervised medical and psychological therapies MEM *may* have been engaging in as part of "transitioning". She may have just decided to change her clothing, name, and appearance to present as male on her own-- we have no idea at this point-- and likely won't have more details for quite some time (if at all).

    But IF she is taking testosterone (legal or illegal), that is a big part of the whole picture that will be unquestionably be thoroughly explored by BOTH the prosecution AND the defense. It is both a potential rationale (but not excuse) for aggressiveness and antisocial behavior, and also a treatment for severe disabling gender dysphoria. There is no getting around that.

    Exogenous administered testosterone is well documented in the literature to promote anti social and aggressive behaviors. There is no getting around that UNLESS MEM was NOT taking testosterone.

    If this goes to trial (no plea), and MEM is taking T, experts on BOTH sides will testify. One side will say it isn't a problem, just an innocuous substance like a little vitamin-- and the other side's experts will say that it produces violent aggression in adolescents.

    That's why it's significant. I don't expect to hear details on this (whether or not MEM is taking T) for months, if at all. They need to keep a lid on it until the defense decides how they want to use the information in MEM's defense. Oh, and it's a "medical privacy" thing, too, of course.[/QUOTE]
     
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  4. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    Because it is significant. Very significant. Too significant to be merely overlooked or normalized, IMO.

    Both of these teens were social misfits, IMO. DE has big piles of issues from what is on his social media, IMO. Just like many of the school shooters.

    And many people, especially defense attorneys, try to excuse social misfits and blame the rest of society for their choices, because society is not "tolerant" enough. Or something.

    It can't be both ways. Either they are socially and psychologically damaged misfits, or they are perfectly socially and psychologically fit and healthy, and made an evil choice to kill people. Are they evil, or ill and disabled socially and mentally? Strange that some prefer "evil" over "ill".

    I happen to think most, if not all, killers are psychologically and socially damaged/ disabled, but also fully responsible for their premeditated and purposeful actions as shooters. Certainly most adolescent school shooters, IMO, are very socially and psychologically damaged and disabled people, for a variety of reasons personal to each shooter. I don't think we have to try to put ourselves through contortions to hold both ideas at the same time.
     
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  5. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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    You stated you faulted him for harming the trans community.

    Fair enough on your contention that the actions did not make you personally think less of trans folks.

    I referenced msm. Hate sites are not msm. I don't read those and won't start now.

    I am well aware of the hatred some have towards trans people.

    I am the mother of a transgender woman.

     
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  6. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that Transgender really has any quantitative value in discussing "school shootings", just that this particular school shooter happened to be transgender.

    Now, if the last 10 school shooters had been transgender, that would have qualitatively changed the discussion. In this instance, it is just a characteristic of a particular school shooter.

    I do think that reducing school expenses and reducing school counselors is a bad choice. Just saying, school counselors have a role, for students to be referred if they are being bullied or identified as having issues.
     
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  7. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    Here you go. It’s a pattern of thought called “collective responsibility”. Not a correct thought pattern IMO, but a documented one.
    Collective Responsibility (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
     
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  8. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    Collective Responsibility (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
     
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  9. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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    Deleted
     
  10. cody22

    cody22 Well-Known Member

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    There is no sleuthing to be done with this crime. The guilty are caught and will be punished eventually...... I will continue to "lurk" this thread for the pure entertainment value of reading the very opposing viewpoints on the two criminals involved....moo
     
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  11. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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  12. Sunshine95

    Sunshine95 Active Member

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    Could someone please change the title of this thread so that it more accurately represents all of the children physically harmed by such violent hatred?
     
  13. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    Thanks for sharing that. I have transgender friends and know at least one is worried about the effect this case will have on the community (and the snide comments she’ll get as a result). I hope she is wrong, I really do. But she lives with that intolerance every day. Hopefully your daughter’s experience has been different.
     
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  14. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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  15. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    Misfits? Sounds Nazi ish to me.

    I have a friend who is 16. I have inly known her since age 8. At age 8, he wanted to be a girl.

    I have watched her become more and more confident and assertive . She fights the hate all of the time.

    She is my first trans friend. I retired to a foreign country where there are a lot of trans individuals. They still face prejudice.

    I wonder how many people who are so judgmental and vicious about trans people have one as a friend?

    I wonder how many people could deal with the cruelty?

    Not that I think shooting is ok, but people seem to be minimizing what it is like to be the object of derision. And to know your body is obviously different from others
     
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  16. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    Amen!
     
  17. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    Bond hearing for both accused teens Friday.

    Prosecutor will decide by Friday whether to charge juvenile MEM as an adult.

    Formal charges to be filed Monday.

    Case files for both sealed until charges are filed, or soon after.

    Both continue to be held in custody.

    STEM School Highlands Ranch shooting: Adult and juvenile suspects have been identified – The Denver Post

    Surely both teens will be charged separately. I can't imagine they'd be tried together.
     
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  18. ReadySet

    ReadySet Well-Known Member

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    Ok that's it for me.
    I'm just sad.
    I don't post much, because I don't like arguing with strangers on the internet.
    I've successfully avoided even reading other threads that get into politics, religion, etc. because it's just a fool's errand for me.
    I went against my better judgement this morning.
    I just couldn't read another post maligning the trans community. And some really weren't, and I get it, and I thank you, Colorado 301
    And some will say they weren't, but they were. You know who you are.
    In real life, if I run across a person who does not understand transgender issues, I would invite you to go out for coffee, and we would sit and have a reasonable discussion, based on wanting to genuinely understand each other's point of view.
    I've done that before. And the other person always thanks me and says, "I just didn't know." And I thank them for sharing their viewpoint with me.
    I'm done arguing with strangers on the internet about this topic.
    Thank you to those who really tried to understand.
    To those who cannot get past their disgust about the topic, I will say that it's ok to feel disgusted or awkward about something. But not ok to use that feeling of disgust to malign others or to take away their rights.
    I will never have the pleasure of having my daughter live close to me, or even in my state. Except for a few towns, my state does not recognize her rights. She could get fired from her job, or get evicted from her housing, just for being trans.
    She is the best person I know. I'm so proud of her. And I'm proud of myself for never wavering even for a second in giving her total acceptance and love.
    Push yourself to see things differently than you have before. I had to. You can too.
    Wish we could all go out for coffee.
     
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  19. K_Z

    K_Z Verified Anesthetist

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    It's really okay if some think that the sexual and gender identity of these perpetrators is incidental, or irrelevant, to their accused crimes. I really do understand how badly some folks want that to be true, or it "is" true to them. I'm all good with that.

    But I respectfully disagree with that viewpoint.

    I know literally dozens of transgender and gender and sexually confused teens because of the school one of my teens goes to. I have had a transgender nanny years ago. I have cared for a number of transgender people in my role as a healthcare provider, many of those with really horrible, disabling complications from their gender change surgeries. I worked in the OR for several years with a person who changed from female to male, changed locker rooms, and all that. He was a very competent practitioner in the OR, but had a lot of social and psych problems in his outside life, as well as a physical disability from his gender change surgery that caused him to have a partially paralyzed leg. That was a real issue in caring for patients in the OR, as you might imagine. But this individual was cherished and loved as a co-worker-- but no one thought he was "normal" or "not disabled" socially as well as physically. He himself talked at length about those issues with all of us.

    In every case, in my opinion, these are people struggling with a very serious social and psychological disability that they cannot control. It compels each of them to do certain things-- some healthy, some very not healthy things. It is no different than being born with a physical disability, or any other disability.

    In my considerable experience, these conditions cannot be normalized by society, or overlooked. It's not a choice of strawberry ice cream, or vanilla. They are for the most part lovely people, who through no fault of their own, have a very serious disabling medical/ and or psychological condition. They need, and should have, intensive life long medical and psychological care, for their optimum health and life-- just like anyone with a disability, or birth condition does.

    They need, and should have, our compassion, but not our denial, of who they are, what their behaviors are, and what their medical, psychological, and social situation is.

    So now I'm done explaining myself, and my views. Moving on......
     
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  20. angelainwi

    angelainwi Certified Trauma Counselor

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    I am not sure if I understand. Are you saying that individuals who are transgender are really people who are very psychologically ill and that we should not normalize being transgender because it is not really a thing. You say they should have our compassion, but not our denial, our denial of what? That they are misfits?
     
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