CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

liljim

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I don't think that the officer who was hit was to the side of the car at all. I think he was standing in front of the car and may have been to the left of center line. A car has a front, back and two sides. You can't be standing on one side and the front at the same time.

JMO

if you are ten feet in front of a car and 3 feet off to the side you can accurately be described as both in front of the car and to the side of it.

to nobody in particular - please dont waste time taking my completely made up example and comparing it to the facts in this case, it is a hypothetical example used to make a theoretical point. thanx.
 

Tawny

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well depending on exactly how it was done it may just be standard protocol, it is never easy to watch but the police do search and handcuff people that they have shot as regular procedure, and they do not provide first aid.

but if for some reason they were particularly rough or something then that would be an issue.

I am not anti-cop by any means, but this doesn't sit well with me. In combat, if you take a prisoner and he is injured, you're required to perform first aid, at least basic life saving actions.

So in war, we save the lives of enemy combatants, but in an arrest of an American citizen (or immigrant, or tourist, or hell even an illegal immigrant, whatever, doesn't matter.), we just... let them die. SMH
 

katydid23

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I am not anti-cop by any means, but this doesn't sit well with me. In combat, if you take a prisoner and he is injured, you're required to perform first aid, at least basic life saving actions.

So in war, we save the lives of enemy combatants, but in an arrest of an American citizen (or immigrant, or tourist, or hell even an illegal immigrant, whatever, doesn't matter.), we just... let them die. SMH

By law, in some precincts, officers are not legally allowed to because they are not trained EMTS. They will often do CPR etc, but they do not generally do first aid on the scene.
 

Tawny

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By law, in some precincts, officers are not legally allowed to because they are not trained EMTS. They will often do CPR etc, but they do not generally do first aid on the scene.

That's unfortunate.

Do we know at which point they may have called for EMTs to come to the scene? I feel like as soon as shots are fired, that should happen. Also, I understand police have a TON of responsibilities, but I think basic "buddy aid" should be required. Meaning, applying pressure to areas that are bleeding, etc. JMO!
 

Woodland

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Find it repugnant LE not legally 'allowed' to offer any aid to someone they have just shot - anywhere. Who came up with that?

It doesn't take a trained EMT to apply pressure to a bleeding wound - it will be a yucky job to say the least, but necessary. A hero would do it without stopping to consider it would be heroic. A pr*k would walk away - uniformed or not uniformed. Jmo.
 

Woodland

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Unable to reconcile a slow moving vehicle with 'aiming said vehicle at LE while trying to flee'.

Imo, this is like watching a bridge being built from both ends from a distance, with the builders intending to line it up perfectly in the middle. From a distance you can't really tell if it will in fact line up or not when they finally get there - the view is distorted until the very end.
 

liljim

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yep, agree with everyone about the no first aid thing, although i do understand the reasoning for it, it is always excruciating to see videos where the person is literally dying on the ground and they handcuff them, search them, and then stand there for several minutes sometimes until EMTs arrive.

i understand it, but it always feels wrong.
 

Fred Hall

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yep, agree with everyone about the no first aid thing, although i do understand the reasoning for it, it is always excruciating to see videos where the person is literally dying on the ground and they handcuff them, search them, and then stand there for several minutes sometimes until EMTs arrive.

i understand it, but it always feels wrong.

If a police officer was shot, would his colleagues refrain from giving him first aid because they aren't trained EMTs?
 

Kimberlyd125

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Looks to me like handcuffing and searching were the exactly appropriate actions.


Lesson 8: Handcuff all downed suspects. Some officers might feel that it is not nice to handcuff suspects that have been shot, and others might believe that it is unnecessary to cuff all suspects because some are “obviously” dead. Counted among the suspects shot during incidents that officers reported during the VALOR interviews were some who appeared to be dead—for example, from multiple rifle rounds to the head—but who were still alive. As noted in the introduction, some human beings have a remarkable capacity to survive gunshot wounds. Fortunately, none of the thoughtdead offenders managed to injure any officers interviewed, but the fact that they were still alive meant that they maintained the capacity to do so. The capacity of downed suspects is hindered substantially when they are cuffed. No matter how severely injured they might be, therefore, all downed suspects should be handcuffed. This concept leads to the next lesson.

Lesson 9: Thoroughly search all downed suspects after they have been cuffed. Handcuffing greatly restricts the capacity of a downed suspect to harm officers. But it does not eliminate it, for handcuffed suspects can still retrieve and use deadly weapons they may have concealed. It is vitally important, therefore, that officers remember to thoroughly search all downed suspects after cuffing them. Just because the deadly weapon that the officer saw in the suspect’s hand when the officer shot the suspect has been secured does not mean that the suspect does not have a second, or a third, or a fourth weapon. Indeed, several of the officers interviewed faced suspects who were armed with multiple weapons. Consequently, searches of all downed suspects must be continued until officers have cleared the entire body of the suspect and are confident that they have found all of the weapons that the suspect brought to the fight. This notion of continuing to search also applies to searching for people.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...n=display_arch&article_id=2665&issue_id=52012
 

Kimberlyd125

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If the officers rolled JH back and forth on the ground after she was shot, will not be impressed with their actions. Will find it not only disrespectful, but also bordering on an attempt to make sure she didn't live. Suspect others will view it the same way - might account for the silence from LE? How does one explain the need for that - if it happened?

Protocol. Cuff and search.
 

katydid23

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An uncomfortable truth: When you're shot in New Orleans, police have little medical assistance to offer
from link:

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/07/bourbon_street_nopd_response.html

It's debatable whether it would make sense for police to take on more medical responsibilities in a city with pressing crime needs.

Even if the officer had been near a victim who had a better chance of survival, it's unlikely he would have been able to do much, as most cops receive their only medical training in the academy the year they join.

That lack of training and equipment stands in contrast to a department crime-scene policy that says officers should "render aid" -- a policy that a police union says sets them up to fail.

Serpas described a stressful situation for police, who have to juggle several priorities: find the perpetrator, preserve evidence and broadcast urgent information - including where ambulances should go.

A lack of training could spell legal trouble for an officer who tries to help a civilian. Officers are reluctant to try moves they barely remember from the academy, which if done wrong, could cause more harm than good, Hessler said.

And police are not covered under the state's Good Samaritan law, which offers medical professionals protection from lawsuits when they help someone in need.


There are times when street-level medicine to stanch blood loss does not make a difference, Elder said. A person shot or stabbed in the head, back, chest or stomach likely would not benefit.
 

katydid23

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If a police officer was shot, would his colleagues refrain from giving him first aid because they aren't trained EMTs?

I am sure they would. But then again, they are not going to be sued by the police dept. if they do so/

From article linked above:
A lack of training could spell legal trouble for an officer who tries to help a civilian. Officers are reluctant to try moves they barely remember from the academy, which if done wrong, could cause more harm than good, Hessler said.

And police are not covered under the state's Good Samaritan law, which offers medical professionals protection from lawsuits when they help someone in need.
 

liljim

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i think it is a reasonable argument to say that all LEO should be trained in basic first aid and be expected to administer it when safe to do so.

but i can see the arguments against it too, and it isnt the case right now so there you go...
 

CoolJ

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By law, in some precincts, officers are not legally allowed to because they are not trained EMTS. They will often do CPR etc, but they do not generally do first aid on the scene.

Never heard this before. Must be an American thing?? In Canada, LE are considered first responders and therefore not helping someone would be an act of omission which would be a problem legally.
 

Kimberlyd125

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Never heard this before. Must be an American thing?? In Canada, LE are considered first responders and therefore not helping someone would be an act of omission which would be a problem legally.

Not helping an innocent civilian is one thing. When it's an offender who has tried to harm an officer, standard protocol is to cuff them and search them before any assistance is rendered.
I read last night, even when the suspect is obviously dead, they are still cuffed.

So in this case, I think LE followed rules by dragging her out of the car, cuffing her, and searching her.

Even though some seem to imply "rolling her back and forth" was cruel and they were trying to "make sure she didn't survive" they followed procedures how they were trained to do so. For their protection. She was cuffed and "rolled back and forth" during a search.


JMO from what I've read.
 

CoolJ

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Not helping an innocent civilian is one thing. When it's an offender who has tried to harm an officer, standard protocol is to cuff them and search them before any assistance is rendered.
I read last night, even when the suspect is obviously dead, they are still cuffed.

So in this case, I think LE followed rules by dragging her out of the car, cuffing her, and searching her.

Even though some seem to imply "rolling her back and forth" was cruel and they were trying to "make sure she didn't survive" they followed procedures how they were trained to do so. For their protection. She was cuffed and "rolled back and forth" during a search.


JMO from what I've read.

I see no problem with them cuffing or searching someone who has been shot. That is for their own protection. It makes sense. What doesn't make sense is refusing to offer any kind of basic life saving measures after that has taken place. Also, a little common sense comes into play when a person is obviously incapacitated, the priority should be to save their life, not necessarily cuff them right away. JMO
 

Fred Hall

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I see no problem with them cuffing or searching someone who has been shot. That is for their own protection. It makes sense. What doesn't make sense is refusing to offer any kind of basic life saving measures after that has taken place. Also, a little common sense comes into play when a person is obviously incapacitated, the priority should be to save their life, not necessarily cuff them right away. JMO

It is one thing utilizing extreme caution when dealing with violent criminals like the bank robbers from the North Hollywood Shootout. But when an officer shoots someone in error the response should be different.
 
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