CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

Woodland

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If there is so much hype/rumor and misinformation, how do we know the father was correctly quoted in saying JH was shot 18 times? That's a call one has to make when believing what one is reading. No?

Standard protocol, imo, might be out of line with the paying public - don't believe for a minute the public was consulted, anywhere, before these standard protocols were put in place. The 'hype' that created these 'rules/laws' may have now reached beyond reasonable conduct and is not actually serving the public at large. Jmo.

Just because LE is now trained in a certain way, doesn't make it the right thing now or in the long run. Jmo. Who exactly is deciding what the training and protocol should be these days? Police unions or the public? Find it hard to believe anyone can pinpoint that now. Jmo. Accepting everything that we are 'told' by LE may not be what 'we' want for our grandchildren. Seems dangerous to me without oversight on what should be protocol. Jmo.
 

Kimberlyd125

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If there is so much hype/rumor and misinformation, how do we know the father was correctly quoted in saying JH was shot 18 times? That's a call one has to make when believing what one is reading. No?

Standard protocol, imo, might be out of line with the paying public - don't believe for a minute the public was consulted, anywhere, before these standard protocols were put in place. The 'hype' that created these 'rules/laws' may have now reached beyond reasonable conduct and is not actually serving the public at large. Jmo.

Just because LE is now trained in a certain way, doesn't make it the right thing now or in the long run. Jmo. Who exactly is deciding what the training and protocol should be these days? Police unions or the public? Find it hard to believe anyone can pinpoint that now. Jmo. Accepting everything that we are 'told' by LE may not be what 'we' want for our grandchildren. Seems dangerous to me without oversight on what should be protocol. Jmo.

Because HE posted it on social media.

GMAB

And you don't have to agree with laws and procedures but they are in place for a reason.
You don't like them, work to change them.

But I for one agree whole heartedly with securing a criminal who has just tried to cause death or bodily harm to an officer or others.

There are consequences to actions. That's the problem with "kids" "criminals" these days. They think they should be above the law.

They simply can't be and aren't.

Some are finding that out the hard way instead of being taught that at home.

JMO
 

Woodland

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So what are the reasons for some of these laws I and others don't agree with and care for? Which laws are being referred to? Who was consulted and agreed to these laws on behalf of everyone?

GMAB that a cop can shoot a driver of a slow moving and/or stationary vehicle, then drag a non-moving/stationary person that has been shot in the chest/neck/back etc out, flip them about on the pretext of searching them for safety, leaving scrapes on their face and chest, then walk away because some law or so called training says they can or are suppose to.

I would not turn my back and walk away after seeing a cop do that - I would advance and try to staunch any bleeding. Would I be shot in the process because I'm not an EMT with flashing lights and a van?
 

Woodland

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So where did the 18 shots come from? Mom/dad made it up? Someone advised them that was the case? What do you know?
 

Kimberlyd125

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So where did the 18 shots come from? Mom/dad made it up? Someone advised them that was the case? What do you know?

Who on earth would have "advised" them of this? The father said the ME told him that. Does that seem plausible at all to anybody? That a ME would tell the parents she was shot 18 times when she only had like 3 or 4 wounds?

Hype? Incitement? Denial?

JMO
 

Kimberlyd125

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So what are the reasons for some of these laws I and others don't agree with and care for? Which laws are being referred to? Who was consulted and agreed to these laws on behalf of everyone?

GMAB that a cop can shoot a driver of a slow moving and/or stationary vehicle, then drag a non-moving/stationary person that has been shot in the chest/neck/back etc out, flip them about on the pretext of searching them for safety, leaving scrapes on their face and chest, then walk away because some law or so called training says they can or are suppose to.

I would not turn my back and walk away after seeing a cop do that - I would advance and try to staunch any bleeding. Would I be shot in the process because I'm not an EMT with flashing lights and a van?

The cops did their job. Simple.
The EMTs did their job. Simple.

JH was shot due to her actions.
JH was pulled out of the car due to her actions.
JH was cuffed due to her actions.
JH was searched due to her actions.
JH is dead due to her actions.

No matter how much some would like to blame the cops for doing their jobs, if JH had only got out of the car with her hands up instead of putting it into drive and driving it towards a cop, she would most likely be alive today.

Cops have a right to defend themselves. That includes cuffing and searching a downed suspect.

IMO people are grasping at straws to find ANYthing those cops may have done wrong. When there is a LONG list of things JH did to cause her own death.

JMO
 

nothingnew

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So what are the reasons for some of these laws I and others don't agree with and care for? Which laws are being referred to? Who was consulted and agreed to these laws on behalf of everyone?

GMAB that a cop can shoot a driver of a slow moving and/or stationary vehicle, then drag a non-moving/stationary person that has been shot in the chest/neck/back etc out, flip them about on the pretext of searching them for safety, leaving scrapes on their face and chest, then walk away because some law or so called training says they can or are suppose to.

I would not turn my back and walk away after seeing a cop do that - I would advance and try to staunch any bleeding. Would I be shot in the process because I'm not an EMT with flashing lights and a van?

Haha, that's cute! In California you would probably not be shot by LE, just detained. What WILL happen is you will likely be sued by that poor dear soul you were trying to help. Either that person or their family. This is a very, very sue happy state-hence the laws of LE not assisting with your health, car, etc. The folks with their hands out consider it fair and just because they are taking money from the insurance company and not an actual person. It's easier for the insurance companies to just pay out and spread the difference on to everybody else (i.e.-we the people). Very unfair but sadly true. Moo
 

al66pine

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Originally Posted by Woodland "So where did the 18 shots come from? Mom/dad made it up? Someone advised them that was the case? What do you know?"
.
Who on earth would have "advised" them of this? The father said the ME told him that. Does that seem plausible at all to anybody? That a ME would tell the parents she was shot 18 times when she only had like 3 or 4 wounds? Hype? Incitement? Denial? JMO
bbm

Seems imo, MedEx in some (many/most/virtually all?) cases would not be able to determine # of shots fired at person.
Seems imo, MedEx would be able to determine more accurately # of shots which hit person. But not always.
IOW, person might have 100 shots fired at her, but poss that none, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. (hypothetically) hit, causing injury to her.

So let's distinguish number of bullets -
-- fired at her, which would be determined, imo, # of bullets reported by LEOs on scene in this case (yes, could have been 18)
from
-- which impacted her -as described by autopsy report.

Is it poss the "number of shots" was relayed thru a couple ppl before becoming the "18 shots" that Mother and Father repeated?
The old telephone game?

IIRC, autopsy report described 4 bullet paths or trajectories, but I do not recall how many bullets were recovered.

Q1: anyone posting MedEx told Mother or Father JH was shot 18 times, MSM link pls and copy & paste.
Q2. anyone posting MedEx talked directly w Mother or Father, MSM link pls and copy & paste. Thx in adv.
 

Woodland

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Well, speaking of plausible - a cop is standing in front of and at the same time to the side of the vehicle JH was in, she put it in drive, so the officer at the front/side had to run to the drivers window to join his colleague, fire a round or two because he was threatened, then run back in front/side of the vehicle in order to be hit by it, or .... And this is all according to the book using what Denver LE are trained to do in a tight/fast moving situation, apparently.

Will take the advice not to help anyone in California - have only been there twice - will be sure not to put a third trip on my bucket list.

JH's family was inciting the public by stating she was shot 18 times? One should take the time to consider what they have said since to make such a dramatic accusation stick. Are they saying more than LE at the moment? Have they said anything since the 18 shot statement? How is the cop with broken/fractured/injured leg doing? Do we know? Was he really hurt after all? Idk.

Really looking forward to some sort of official conclusion.
 

al66pine

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....JH's family was inciting the public by stating she was shot 18 times? One should take the time to consider what they have said since to make such a dramatic accusation stick. Are they saying more than LE at the moment? Have they said anything since the 18 shot statement?....
sbm

Woodland,
IDK, if you targeted this ^ to answer me. I did not say family incited public by stating she was shot 18 times.
Did not see anyone else saying it but might have missed it.
If you post was to answer mine, I don't see it as responsive to these questions:

Q1: anyone posting that MedEx told Mother or Father JH was shot 18 times, MSM link pls and copy & paste.
Q2. anyone posting that MedEx talked directly w Mother or Father, MSM link pls and copy & paste. Thx in adv.

If not, my apologies to you and still looking forward to anyone who can provide answers w links.
 

Fred Hall

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This article contains allegations that eyewitnesses were ordered not to record the shooting aftermath.
Diaz said an officer stopped her after she left her yard, telling her he would arrest her if she didn't cooperate.
"The officer had me apprehended, he wouldn’t let me go," Diaz said.
She said she yelled to Brianna, who was still on their property, behind a fence, to record what was happening as officers pulled a lifeless Hernandez from the car.
"At that time, (the officers) put Jessie down and they were on their knees yelling at Brianna that she better not record. She better not," Diaz said.
Odd behavior, if true.
 

katydid23

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sbm

Woodland,
IDK, if you targeted this ^ to answer me. I did not say family incited public by stating she was shot 18 times.
Did not see anyone else saying it but might have missed it.
If you post was to answer mine, I don't see it as responsive to these questions:

Q1: anyone posting that MedEx told Mother or Father JH was shot 18 times, MSM link pls and copy & paste.
Q2. anyone posting that MedEx talked directly w Mother or Father, MSM link pls and copy & paste. Thx in adv.

If not, my apologies to you and still looking forward to anyone who can provide answers w links.


I did say I thought the family was trying to incite the public by saying she was shot 18 times.
 

Yoda

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Originally Posted by Woodland "So where did the 18 shots come from? Mom/dad made it up? Someone advised them that was the case? What do you know?"
.
bbm

Seems imo, MedEx in some (many/most/virtually all?) cases would not be able to determine # of shots fired at person.
Seems imo, MedEx would be able to determine more accurately # of shots which hit person. But not always.
IOW, person might have 100 shots fired at her, but poss that none, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. (hypothetically) hit, causing injury to her.

So let's distinguish number of bullets -
-- fired at her, which would be determined, imo, # of bullets reported by LEOs on scene in this case (yes, could have been 18)
from
-- which impacted her -as described by autopsy report.

Is it poss the "number of shots" was relayed thru a couple ppl before becoming the "18 shots" that Mother and Father repeated?
The old telephone game?

IIRC, autopsy report described 4 bullet paths or trajectories, but I do not recall how many bullets were recovered.

Q1: anyone posting MedEx told Mother or Father JH was shot 18 times, MSM link pls and copy & paste.
Q2. anyone posting MedEx talked directly w Mother or Father, MSM link pls and copy & paste. Thx in adv.

ok I'm adding a link. It is not MSM, but it has a VIDEO interview, in Spanish, with the mother. In it, the mother said she learned at the morgue that her daughter was shot 18 times.
Scroll down to Dream Action Coalition post. It's that video.
If I find a link just to the interview I will change it.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/fa...rnandez-shot-18-times-call-doj-investigation/
 

al66pine

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ok I'm adding a link. It is not MSM, but it has a VIDEO interview, in Spanish, with the mother. In it, the mother said she learned at the morgue that her daughter was shot 18 times.
Scroll down to Dream Action Coalition post. It's that video.
If I find a link just to the interview I will change it.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/fa...rnandez-shot-18-times-call-doj-investigation/

Yoda
Thanks for your response and link.
Yes, I'd seen that interview w JH's Mother, w translator saying Mother said JH was shot 18 times. Not doubting the translator's translation of #.

I'm curious whether Medical Examiner (or staff) told her or Father, JH was shot 18 times. Or told anyone.
IIRC, autopsy rpt described 4 bullet paths or trajectories, autopsy rpt itself did not say JH was shot 18x.
That why I asked for MSM link re MedEx saying shot 18x.
Thx in adv to anyone who posts link.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
(From my earlier post:
"Q1: anyone posting MedEx told Mother or Father JH was shot 18 times, MSM link pls and copy & paste.
Q2. anyone posting MedEx talked directly w Mother or Father, MSM link pls and copy
& paste. Thx in adv.")
 

al66pine

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Thanks Fred Hall for ref to this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxmiF_-4cOM&t=72
You are absolutely right about journalist saying she has "seen a video of the shooting aftermath" which convinces me a vid of some of the aftermath exists.
Not sure what it shows, other than "the police handcuffing her and searching her lifeless body."

IIRC, your original point about the vid was that it showed LE cuffing & searching her, after she had been shot, and you thought that was not necessary.
What is a lifeless body -
- someone absolutely positively, medically & legally dead, or
- someone on the ground whose volitional body movements are not detectable by casual observer, or perhaps even by LE?

Does this vid plus "lifeless" characterization means that LEOs know she was dead, so C & S policy not app, cuffing & searching not necessary?

Is it poss that an arrestee/suspect
- who has been shot at by LE may not be seriously injured or poss not injured at all?
- an arrestee/suspect bleeding in a way observable to LEOs may be only superficially injured and may fake unconsciousness?
- injured in such a way may be biding time, waiting for a chance to use a concelaed weapon?
Some ppl who are critical of LE following C & S policy are doing so based upon benefit of 20/20 hindsight, to say LEOs and others were not poss'ly endangered?

Should statute or LE policy expect LEOs to make medical determinations about suspects/arrestees and selectively refrain from C & S -
to 'preserve arrestee dignity' when doing so may imperil the well being of LEOs, others in the area and even the arrestees themselves?*


BTW: Sometimes fam of the 'lifeless' in hosp. contends still living, even after 5+ med drs w appropriate neurological and other specialities concur on death, e.g., Jahi McMath.
These injured arrestees situations could be opposite side of the coin.
JM2cts.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
* About rationale of C & S policies:
"People in and out of law enforcement, including some critics of the Police Department, say there are many reasons for the use of handcuffs in shooting situations, even after the bullets stop flying. It is meant to keep everyone — officers, civilians and the shot person himself — from further harm, in the same way a doctor might have to restrain a patient before administering medicine.
“It is standard procedure,” said Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman. “It is standard procedure to handcuff somebody, even after he’s shot.”
Indeed, the use of handcuffs is mandated by the Patrol Guide, the department’s policy manual.
“Handcuff prisoners with hands behind back,” the guide instructs in a section outlining the procedures for an arresting officer.
In another section, titled “Prisoners Requiring Medical/Psychiatric Treatment,” the guide states that an arresting officer should “rear cuff and place leg restraints on prisoner before transporting to hospital.”
Critics of the policy concede that handcuffing is acceptable to keep a shot person from doing further violence to himself or others, particularly if he may still be armed or in psychiatric distress. But several people said that police officials ought to re-examine the one-size-fits-all nature of the policy, particularly if the shot person is clearly incapacitated or dead from the bullets."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/nyregion/18cuffs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Nov 18, 2007
 

Fred Hall

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IIRC, your original point about the vid was that it showed LE cuffing & searching her, after she had been shot, and you thought that was not necessary.
sbm

I said that the officers' alleged post-shooting acts were bizarre and life-threatening. I might not be alone in that belief, as there are claims that the officers illegally threatened a person who attempted to film them from her backyard. That is not the behavior of men with a clear conscience; it is the behavior of men who have been caught in some act that they do not want seen.
 

al66pine

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My post yesterday responded to post by Fred Hall days ago, bbm:
"..... His bizarre assault on her as she lay dying .... " bbm

"bizarre assault on her"
If LE protocol/SOP is to Cuff & Search arrestees, even downed persons, & if that's what LEOs did,
how is it 'bizarre' other than in your personal opinion? And you are mos def entitled to your opinion, as is everyone.
But when someone says an action following protocol/SOP is a bizarre assault, I'm curious about reasoning, if any.

"she lay dying"
Seems post's conclusion about dying uses advantage of 20/20 hindsight in learning she died
(relatively soon thereafter. I've forgotten if she was pronounced dead at scene, DOA at hosp, or hours afterward).
How would LEOs know she was dead? Is it poss that an arrestee/suspect -
- who has been shot at by LE may not be seriously injured or poss not injured at all?
- an arrestee bleeding in a way observable to LEOs may be only superficially injured and may fake unconsciousness?
- injured in such a way may be biding time, waiting for a chance to use a concealed weapon?
.
Should statute or LE policy expect LEOs to make medical determinations about arrestees and selectively refrain from C & S -
to 'preserve arrestee dignity' when doing so may imperil the well being of LEOs, others in the area and even the arrestees themselves?

Still waiting for answers responsive to my questions in my post from yesterday- which I just repeated above. Anyone? TIA.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Fred Hall post this morning merely restates 'bizarre' conclusion & suggests others agree w him. (okay, so what?))
"I said that the officers' alleged post-shooting acts were bizarre and life-threatening. I might not be alone in that belief...." bbm
Sorry, imo, not responsive to my questions. Again, TIA.
 
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