CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

Fred Hall

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"Originally Posted by SwampMama I identified myself and husband as first responders to indicate where my viewpoint and experience in the subject matter comes from. It seems that a few posters felt that JH being cuffed and searched was a "bizarre assault" by an "enraged" LE and that LE not immediately turning all of their attention to saving the life of JH made them "pr*cks". "
"I was simply pointing out that it is common procedure to secure the scene first ( C&S, detain other possible threats, etc) and then allow first responders to render aid (or render basic aid themselves till EMTs get there). LE had their hands full with the 4 other passengers, the crowd, a crime scene, and such. They cannot ignore their own safety in order to render aid to JH."
"That is simply commonly accepted protocol. I hope that clears why I brought up "first responders"."
bbm

sbm bbm

I'm confused about second ^post. Does anyone think -
- in gen. LE wants to delay FRs arriving on scene from providing med attn to ppl who need treatment?
- in gen FRs s/b/expected to enter scene before LE tries to make sure nobody there has means to injure or kill FRs.

If FRs are required to rush in, before LE secures scene -
- would FRs on payroll demand waaay more $$$ & expanded benefits - all health ins paid & $$$$ life ins policies?
- would supply of volunteer FRs dwindle to point of what? Forcing some municipalities to forego these services?

Which public sector jobs require employees w no weapons, to risk life & limb at hands of others?
Let's see - LE, nope, got weapons; fire fighters - ??? Others? Not coming to mind, may be overlooking some.

I'm puzzled about what second post implies, may be misreading it.

I am discussing the actions of the officers during the shooting and the immediate aftermath. I see no evidence that EMTs did anything more than lift the driver from the ground at the mouth of the lane, where the officer(s) had placed her, into an ambulance. The shooting and whatever subsequent acts the driver was subject to were all committed by the two officers on the scene. The EMTs apparently did not arrive until the casualty's body had been mysteriously moved and are thus not implicated in any of what went on in the shooting aftermath.
 

SwampMama

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my love.jpg

See this gorgeous man. That man is the love of my life and my soulmate. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes looking at him and wishing so bad that I could just hold him and see him just one more time. But that isn't going to happen. He died in 2007. His death was in the line of duty as a firefighter. You have no idea what he went thru and how he suffered before he died. You have no idea how his death devastated me, his mother, his children and the his crew. I will NEVER get over losing him. So much of me died that day with him.

But hey, at least he wasn't a pr*ck, right?

My current husband is a firefighter as are 2 of Bro-in-laws and my sis in law. My stepdaughter and her fiance are police officers. Most people have no idea what they go thru in the line of duty and the dangers they face. Our family has a long history of volunteering, even founding the local fire department and running it for 3 decades, with all volunteers and raising money for equipment by doing fundraisers.

But yeah, I probably have no idea what I am talking about. I'm sure that someone who has never volunteered or served or put their life on the line is much better equipped to judge the situation than me or my family.

Seriously, don't just critique from the safety of your home, get out there and be a first responder or a cop if you think it is so easy and you could such a better job.
 

Fred Hall

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My current husband is a firefighter as are 2 of Bro-in-laws and my sis in law. My stepdaughter and her fiance are police officers. Most people have no idea what they go thru in the line of duty and the dangers they face. Our family has a long history of volunteering, even founding the local fire department and running it for 3 decades, with all volunteers and raising money for equipment by doing fundraisers.
sbm

Your family sounds like great people and I don't believe that anyone here has criticized them or their professions. My concerns are in regard to the actions of the two officers involved in this specific case and do not apply to any other persons. I don't think that I need to be a police officer or an EMT to be able to ask meaningful questions about what happened during and after this shooting.
 

Woodland

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Taxpayers having a say in the protocol, policy, conduct etc of the people they provide salaries to seems to be lost somewhere imo - 'it's all about me' is warranted to some degree, but imo, without taxpayers there is no 'me'. Imo, everything surrounding policy, procedure needs to return to the taxpayers as the front-line and be doled out from there.

Seems to me policy, procedure etc started out as a team effort - money for services.
 

Tawny

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View attachment 73336

See this gorgeous man. That man is the love of my life and my soulmate. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes looking at him and wishing so bad that I could just hold him and see him just one more time. But that isn't going to happen. He died in 2007. His death was in the line of duty as a firefighter. You have no idea what he went thru and how he suffered before he died. You have no idea how his death devastated me, his mother, his children and the his crew. I will NEVER get over losing him. So much of me died that day with him.

But hey, at least he wasn't a pr*ck, right?

My current husband is a firefighter as are 2 of Bro-in-laws and my sis in law. My stepdaughter and her fiance are police officers. Most people have no idea what they go thru in the line of duty and the dangers they face. Our family has a long history of volunteering, even founding the local fire department and running it for 3 decades, with all volunteers and raising money for equipment by doing fundraisers.

But yeah, I probably have no idea what I am talking about. I'm sure that someone who has never volunteered or served or put their life on the line is much better equipped to judge the situation than me or my family.

Seriously, don't just critique from the safety of your home, get out there and be a first responder or a cop if you think it is so easy and you could such a better job.

I respect first responders of all types more than I can convey, but I do question the actions of some sometimes. That isn't to say I think all of them are terrible people.

<modsnip>
 

SwampMama

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<modsnip>We all come here with our own unique experiences and viewpoints. This is mine. So many people want to speak out and be the advocates for criminals like Mike Brown and the Jessica Hernandez so I make no apologies for being the advocate of the LE and first responders and speaking out for them. I can empathize with them. I am tired of the hate and assault on officers and while criminals are defended and honored.

Do you understand what a person goes thru when they have to defend their life and kill a criminal who is threatening their life? I do.

I know all too well what that does to a person, even in a situation where they had no choice because they were being shot at and had to shoot back or they would be killed. Even in a situation where killing a criminal is 100% justified, the officer who has to kill that criminal is emotionally devastated. They have ptsd and nightmares. They are haunted by what they had to do. Even if the killing is 100% legal, the office has to grapple with the emotional and moral conflict. I was a firsthand witness to the trauma such a person has to go thru. It was horrific.

There are many studies on it. Here is an article written by a cop who had to kill some one with an excerpt that resonates with the emotional trauma they must deal with.

http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/aftergun.html

Thoughts of suicide are common among officers who have killed. In fact, police officers have a very high suicide rate under normal conditions. Compound it with Post Shooting Trauma and the results can be phenomenal. This depression can become worse during holiday seasons. An officer who has killed sometimes starts to feel sorry for the family of the person he killed. He starts to dwell on the fact that there is someone missing. Someone's son, someone's father, or someone's husband. Though he is happy to be able to spend the holiday with his family, someone's family is feeling the loss he believes he caused. (11) I know. I was depressed the first Thanksgiving and Christmas following my incident. The man I killed would have killed me if he could have, but his family never did a thing to me. I grieved for them.


This also happens with soldiers who were deployed and had to kill terrorist or enemies. They are just doing their job and defending innocent people but their PTSD is real and well documented for hundreds of years although it was called different name such as battle fatigue and shell shock, etc.

Look, I feel we are all intelligent people here. We obviously are all here because we care. Please take the time to consider the human being behind the gun and what they go thru on a daily basis. Don't just dismiss them as heartless killers who gleefully pull the trigger and take pleasure in killing. Yes, there are some bad cops just as there are bad people in every profession. There are unfortunate shootings that happen. But the majority of cops are people just like us, with family they love, with emotions and most of all are simply humans.
 

katydid23

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Thanks, do you have a source for that? I thought I had read that she was dropping off one of the girls, but I can't find that article now.

It is in all of the reports. I will go find it.
 

MyBelle

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Taxpayers having a say in the protocol, policy, conduct etc of the people they provide salaries to seems to be lost somewhere imo - 'it's all about me' is warranted to some degree, but imo, without taxpayers there is no 'me'. Imo, everything surrounding policy, procedure needs to return to the taxpayers as the front-line and be doled out from there.

Seems to me policy, procedure etc started out as a team effort - money for services.

Taxpayer input into police policies and procedures usually end at the election of the Mayor, who is the boss to the Police Chief or with the elected Sheriff or with a citizen's review board, if the community has one. Politicians are elected and paid to do a job. Taxpayers have our own full-time jobs and families to focus on.



JMO
 

Sillybilly

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Hi everyone !!

Sounds like things are getting a bit touchy in here tonite, so let's stop personalizing posts and move on with the case at hand.

Thanks.
 

Fred Hall

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The title of this thread currently reads "Jessica-Hernandez-17-killed-by-police-after-LEO-struck-by-stolen-car". It seems that no officers were struck or pinned by the stolen car. Will the title be updated to reflect that?
ETA: The officer with the sprained ankle is quoted as saying this ---
He did not remember the car making contact with him other than when he pushed off of it
with his left hand, although he said it was possible.
 

Fred Hall

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The officer's leg also was not broken, but sprained.
He did not remember the car making contact with him other than when he pushed off of it
with his left hand, although he said it was possible. Several minutes after the shooting he felt
pain in his left knee and his right ankle. He went to Denver Health Medical Center where he was
examined and where x-rays were taken. His medical records indicate that he suffered a &#8220;possible
avulsion fracture of the ankle.&#8221; The discharge instructions state: &#8220;There is a small chip fracture
in your ankle. This fracture was caused by stretching the joint ligaments, which pulled off a
small piece of bone.&#8221;3 He was prescribed a &#8220;walking boot&#8221; to use as a substitute for a cast.
 

Fred Hall

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When asked where he placed his left hand to push himself away from the car, he said he
wasn&#8217;t sure if it was &#8220;up closer to the windshield or if it was&#8230;just below it on the hood part,&#8221;
but it was on the driver&#8217;s side of the car, not in front of the car.
This indicates that the officer who sprained his ankle was not in front of the car. The angles of the shots through the corner of windshield into the dashboard and steering-wheel housing suggests that he was standing by the front wheel of the car when he fired.
 

Fred Hall

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Morrissey finishes with this gem ---
If there is one message I hope our community understands from this case, it is that this
shooting was completely preventable. It would not have occurred if Hernandez had simply
complied with lawful police orders.
This statement is hair-raising, and reads like a threat. Walter Scott would not have been shot 5 times in the back if he had simply complied, but that does not justify his killing, nor this one. Defense of life and limb is the only thing that excuses homicide, and these officers were not in danger, as they were standing beside the car when they decided to open fire. Nowhere in the decision letter does Morrissey explicitly admit this fact, although it is obvious from the testimony and the physical evidence.
 

LonghornSpeakEasy

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The title of this thread currently reads "Jessica-Hernandez-17-killed-by-police-after-LEO-struck-by-stolen-car". It seems that no officers were struck or pinned by the stolen car. Will the title be updated to reflect that?
ETA: The officer with the sprained ankle is quoted as saying this ---

It looks to me like you're splitting hairs and pulling quotes from the DA's letter while ignoring others such as the following that more adequately explain the officer's position:


Officer Jordan said the Honda was going much faster than during the earlier forward and backward movements it had made in the alley. When describing the car accelerating toward him, he said: “... An image that keeps coming back to me is the -- almost the entire hood and the -- the driver’s side light. And so it was -- it was no time....” The Honda came within “inches” of him.

“And as it’s coming at me, at some point, I had hit the car...with my hand pushing away, with part of...my hand. I don’t remember exactly where in front of the car but I remember being in front of the car and getting...to the side and pushing like this and I could still feel -- [crying] --

... I could still feel that the car...was coming and I felt like it was coming toward me and I’m -- pushing away, and -- and at the same time, I’m...going like this [demonstrating pushing away with his left hand] and I’m thinking that any minute I’m going to get pushed up against the background and I’m going to get tumbled through and I’m done.
... I was thinking I was going to die.”

When asked what the “background” was that he feared being pushed up against, he answered: “It was the...fence or the brick. I don’t know exactly where it was. I knew it was right behind me and the car was right in front of me.”

He described shooting, having only his right hand on the gun, when he was at the front fender on the driver side, pushing away from the car with his left hand:

“I waited till I had to hit the car away and I’m thinking now I’m going to go -- I’m going to get squished and -- and killed, and right then is when I fired. And...I’d be surprised if my gun wasn’t touching the driver’s side -- the window.”
 

LonghornSpeakEasy

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This indicates that the officer who sprained his ankle was not in front of the car. The angles of the shots through the corner of windshield into the dashboard and steering-wheel housing suggests that he was standing by the front wheel of the car when he fired.

He had a fracture of his ankle, not a sprained ankle.

His medical records indicate that he suffered a &#8220;possible avulsion fracture of the ankle.&#8221; The discharge instructions state: &#8220;There is a small chip fracture in your ankle. This fracture was caused by stretching the joint ligaments, which pulled off a small piece of bone.&#8221;3 He was prescribed a &#8220;walking boot&#8221; to use as a substitute for a cast.
 

Fred Hall

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It looks to me like you're splitting hairs and pulling quotes from the DA's letter while ignoring others such as the following that more adequately explain the officer's position:

Nowhere does it say that the officer was struck by the car.
 

Fred Hall

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He had a fracture of his ankle, not a sprained ankle.

As a layperson I can't really comment, but there seems to be terminological overlap between "sprain" and "fracture". Whatever the case, the officer's leg was not broken, and it was extremely dishonest for the DPD to report it as such.
 

Fred Hall

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The journalist who wrote this VICE article obviously didn't read the decision letter, as she repeats two widely repeated claims about the case that have proven to be false.
A key point of contention in the case is whether Hernandez's vehicle struck one of the officers&#8212;whose leg was broken during the incident&#8212;before or after the shooting started.
The officer's leg was not broken and Morrissey admits that Hernandez's vehicle did not strike the officer.
 

CoolJ

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An avulsion fracture is basically a sprain. He rolled his ankle. He wasn't sandwiched between car and building.
 

CoolJ

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Is the full report available online?
 
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