CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

[Fred Hall]

bbm sbm

Autopsy report (p. 2, para.V) refers to abrasions and contusions on JH, but not describing as post-mortem in that section.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/257233152/Jessica-Hernandez-Autopsy-Report
Can anyone find ref to them as 'post mortem' elsewhere in rpt?
Never mind, I think we've got answer from below, that her abrasions & contusions, if made when LEOs moved her, were not post-mortem.


Based on A/Rpt's "Evidence of Medical Intervention" describing
in tech med lingo about ~4 procedures (presumably) by EMTs and/or hosp ER or OR, appears she was not pronounced dead at the scene.

Thx in adv.

The fact that the driver was not pronounced dead at the scene does not mean that she was alive, and the fact that medical intervention was attempted does not mean that she was showing signs of life. If the driver had been shot through the heart, I do not think it unreasonable for a layperson to describe her as being dead. As for the "post-mortem" term, the Denver Post said this:

"The autopsy said Hernandez had an abrasion on her nose and two abrasions on her chest, all postmortem."

This statement by the DP seems to be in error, as the medical report said that only some of the abrasions "appear postmortem".

Whatever the appropriateness of the term "post-mortem", it seems likely that the driver sustained the abrasions after she was shot through her heart and not before.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I can't provide a link, as the characterization "throwing 'round" is my own. I base it on eyewitness claims that the driver's body was dragged and rolled, and the presence of post-mortem abrasions. I'm not saying the body was literally "thrown" — it's a figure a speech for "handled roughly".

When you are trying to secure a person who has just tried to kill you and you don't know if they are dead, handling them like a new born baby is not the first concern. They had to get her secured in handcuffs and searched. To limit risk.
So, IMO she had to be dragged from the car, cuffed on the ground, and rolled to search her.

While I realize words such as throwing around a corpse" seems to incite (typical in these cases), it does not do much for conversations regarding fact.

JMO

 

[Yoda]

What are we looking for? Or when?

I was looking for the initial dispatch call to the officer, the request for backup, and calls during and after confronting JH. I wanted to see the time each of these things happened and establish a timeline.

 

[al66pine]

Fred Hall,
Thanks for your post. My notes in red.

The fact that the driver was not pronounced dead at the scene does not mean that she was alive, and the fact that medical intervention was attempted does not mean that she was showing signs of life

^Agreed.^

If the driver had been shot through the heart, I do not think it unreasonable for a layperson to describe her as being dead.
^Agreed.^

As for the "post-mortem" term, the Denver Post said this:
.
"The autopsy said Hernandez had an abrasion on her nose and two abrasions on her chest, all postmortem."
.
This statement by the DP seems to be in error,...bbm

Are you saying - a general circulation newspaper/news website's statement of fact was not totally accurate, or misled readers, or was downright wrong ? Then agreed.

For discussion on this board, after an autopsy report is available, why post newspaper interp of forensic finding?
If your point of quoting DP is to say some readers were misled by the 'all postmortem' abrasions statement, then agreed.

Not saying autopsy reports are 100% accurate;
but on forensic issues, can we agree that generally they're more accurate and reliable than newspaper articles?

...as the medical report said that only some of the abrasions "appear postmortem".
View attachment 71823
Attachment 71823

Whatever the appropriateness of the term "post-mortem", it seems likely that the driver sustained the abrasions after she was shot through her heart and not before. bbm
If I said or suggested JH sustained abrasions before she was shot, I do not recall. Could you pls link? Maybe someone else here said that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your earlier post said:
"The officers had just shot the driver dead and were in the process of throwing 'round her corpse..."
suggesting -
-she could not have moved (as she was already dead), so
- she could not have caused or contributed to the abrasions herself (caused solely because of LEOs' actions in moving her) .

My post asked whether it was possible that JH was still alive and moving, resisting, etc., and whether that resistance caused or contributed to the abrasions? I say possible, not 100%, just poss.

Hoping we get to see source doc's eventually.

Thanks for response.

 

[Fred Hall]

Whatever the appropriateness of the term "post-mortem", it seems likely that the driver sustained the abrasions after she was shot through her heart and not before. bbm
If I said or suggested JH sustained abrasions before she was shot, I do not recall. Could you pls link? Maybe someone else here said that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your earlier post said:
"The officers had just shot the driver dead and were in the process of throwing 'round her corpse..."
suggesting -
-she could not have moved (as she was already dead), so
- she could not have caused or contributed to the abrasions herself (caused solely because of LEOs' actions in moving her) .

My post asked whether it was possible that JH was still alive and moving, resisting, etc., and whether that resistance caused or contributed to the abrasions? I say possible, not 100%, just poss.

Hoping we get to see source doc's eventually.

Thanks for response.

sbm

I was not suggesting that anyone said the driver sustained the abrasions prior to being shot. I was just emphasizing my main argument — that the abrasions were sustained after the chest wounds, and that it is unlikly a person will be kicking and struggling after having a bullet penetrate multiple chambers of their heart. That's my layperson's view — It would be interesting to have an expert comment on the matter.

 

[al66pine]

sbm.... unlikly a person will be kicking and struggling after having a bullet penetrate multiple chambers of their heart. That's my layperson's view — It would be interesting to have an expert comment on the matter.

I'd like to hear an expert's comment too.

 

[Fred Hall]

Apparently ecchymosis means bruising. How did the driver sustain these bruises to the sides of her neck, I wonder?

 

[al66pine]

View attachment 71845
Apparently ecchymosis means bruising. How did the driver sustain these bruises to the sides of her neck, I wonder?

From Fred Hall post: "Apparently ecchymosis means bruising." <No link or source.

Per below, ecchymoses are different from bruises, in part based on etiology.

First source
"Specifically, bruises are caused by trauma whereas... ecchymoses "are not necessarily caused by trauma."

Second source
"Local leakage of blood into the skin from the capillaries that occurs spontaneously, without injury, and results in a flat, purplish discolored area is referred to as ecchymosis."

^Quoted^ from sources below.

ETA:
Not trying to say wiki or medicinenet are best sources for technical med info.
I'd welcome input or correction from one of our many med professionals or from other sources.
Thx in adv.
___________________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchymosis
"An ecchymosis ... is a subcutaneous purpura (extravasation of blood) larger than 1 centimeter or a hematoma, commonly called a bruise, though the terms are not interchangeable.[SUP][1][/SUP]
Specifically, bruises are caused by trauma whereas ecchymoses, a type of purpura, are not necessarily caused by trauma.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP]sbm
[/SUP]"Etiology
There are many causes of subcutaneous hematomas including ecchymoses. Coagulopathies such as Hemophilia A may cause ecchymosis formation in children.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP]"[/SUP][SUP]

[/SUP]http://www.medicinenet.com/easy_bruising/symptoms.htm
Bruises
"Symptom Checker: Symptoms & Signs Index
Medical Author: William C. Shiel Jr., MD, FACP, FACR"
.
"A bruise is a traumatic injury of the soft tissues that results in breakage of the local capillaries and leakage of red blood cells. In the skin, bruising can be seen as a reddish-purple discoloration that does not blanch when pressed upon. This discoloration leads to the classic "black and blue" appearance. When a bruise fades, it becomes green and brown as the body metabolizes the blood cells and bilirubin pigment in the skin. A bruise can sometimes be associated with a temporary raised area in the skin and is usually associated with some tenderness. A bruise is best treated with local application of a cold pack immediately after injury."
.
"A bruise is medically termed a contusion. Bruises are typically a result of some degree of injury to the blood vessels in the skin. Easy bruising may be a result of a seemingly insignificant compression of skin or there may be no skin injury recollected. Easy bruising can occur when the blood vessels are weakened by diseases (such as scurvy), medications (such as aspirin, prednisone, and prednisolone), and aging. Easy bruising can also occur because of absent or deficient blood-clotting elements. Local leakage of blood into the skin from the capillaries that occurs spontaneously, without injury, and results in a flat,purplish discolored area is referred to as ecchymosis. Ecchymosis is usually not associated with tenderness." bbm
.
"Medically Reviewed by a Doctor on 7/15/2014".

 

[al66pine]

Yoda -
Yesterday you said you were looking in scanner threads.
"...for the initial dispatch call to the officer, .... to see the time each of these things happened and establish a timeline."sbm bbm
What a great idea! I started a (halfazz) timeline template. Feel free to add times, as you nail down more info w. links to sources.
Everyone is welcome to contrib. Thx in adv. Lots of events in ~1 hr.

______________cut & paste to add to Timeline Template ______________

Timeline Jan 26...................................... a.m.
.
1 call to 911 ............................................
2 initial dispatch call to LEO......................... 6:30
_ LEO runs plates......................................
_ LEO request for backup ...........................
_ backup arrives .......................................
_ __
_ call while confronting?...............................
_ call after confronting JH? ...........................
_ LEOs discharge weapons ..........................
_ LEO call for ambulance..............................
_ ambulance arrives ...................................
_ ambulance departs ..................................
_ ambulance arrives hosp ER ......................
_ hosp ER admits JH...................................
# hosp ER pronounces her dead................... 7:29? per A/Rpt.
# time of death......................................... 7:29
________________________________________________

1 "According to Denver Police, an officer was called to the scene at 6:30 a.m. to investigate suspicious activity in the alleyway.
http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2015/01/27/teen-killed-in-denver-officer-involved-shooting/22408439/

2.
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# time of death per Autopsy Rpt. page 1 (?presumably based on hosp ER records?)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/257233152/Jessica-Hernandez-Autopsy-Report
______________cut & paste to add to Timeline Template _______________________

 

[CoolJ]

Yoda -
Yesterday you said you were looking in scanner threads.
"...for the initial dispatch call to the officer, .... to see the time each of these things happened and establish a timeline."sbm bbm
What a great idea! I started a (halfazz) timeline template. Feel free to add times, as you nail down more info w. links to sources.
Everyone is welcome to contrib. Thx in adv. Lots of events in ~1 hr.

______________cut & paste to add to Timeline Template ______________

Timeline Jan 26...................................... a.m.
.
1 call to 911 ............................................
2 initial dispatch call to LEO......................... 6:30
_ LEO runs plates......................................
_ LEO request for backup ...........................
_ backup arrives .......................................
_ __
_ call while confronting?...............................
_ call after confronting JH? ...........................
_ LEOs discharge weapons ..........................
_ LEO call for ambulance..............................
_ ambulance arrives ...................................
_ ambulance departs ..................................
_ ambulance arrives hosp ER ......................
_ hosp ER admits JH...................................
# hosp ER pronounces her dead................... 7:29? per A/Rpt.
# time of death......................................... 7:29
________________________________________________

1 "According to Denver Police, an officer was called to the scene at 6:30 a.m. to investigate suspicious activity in the alleyway.
http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2015/01/27/teen-killed-in-denver-officer-involved-shooting/22408439/

2.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14

# time of death per Autopsy Rpt. page 1 (?presumably based on hosp ER records?)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/257233152/Jessica-Hernandez-Autopsy-Report
______________cut & paste to add to Timeline Template _______________________

What if there never was a report of suspicious activity? Would that change things?

 

[Fred Hall]

This clip shows about a half second of censored amateur video taken of the mouth of the lane. A blur box has been applied over what I presume is the driver's body. According to google earth she is about 100 feet from where the stolen car rests. Did an officer carry her?

 

[Fred Hall]

Note that the blurred rectangle does not just cover the body lying on the ground &#8212; it has been extended upwards in order to obscure what I'm guessing is an officer leaning over the body. Why was he blurred out? Are they trying to conceal what the officer is doing?

 

[al66pine]

What if there never was a report of suspicious activity? Would that change things?

Cool J -
Good question.
IIUC, you are speculating about this -
LEO on patrol in area noticed car w loud music & sitting in alley but no call to 911.
He ran plates, learned car was reported stolen, and then same events.
Would that change things?

What if he drove by, noticed loud music, returned an hourlater, or two hours later, ran plates, etc. Change things?

Are you asking whether, without a 911 call, an LEO may lawfully run plates?
Does LEO need probable cause to run plates?
Were his observations of car w loud music & occupants in alley, without 911 call, sufficient to run plates?

Maybe LEO saw them passing a joint or smelled MJ. Or not. IDK.

 

[al66pine]

View attachment 71889
This clip shows about a half second of censored amateur video taken of the mouth of the lane. A blur box has been applied over what I presume is the driver's body. According to google earth she is about 100 feet from where the stolen car rests. Did an officer carry her?
View attachment 71890
View attachment 71891

bbm

Fred Hall,
Thanks for posting these stills & vids & doing the measurement.
Must have taken some time & effort to figure it out.

Not much room for ambulance to squeeze into alley.
Seems LE w/want to preserve scene, prevent ambu driving thru shell casings, etc.,even if 'extra' LEO vehicles were moved.

Did LEOs move her from inside car to beside car, then EMTs moved her to alley end/mouth,
then left her in place there for a bit -where vid was made?
Or did LEOs move her from inside car, all the way, 100 feet, to alley end/mouth, left her there to wait for EMTs?

 

[al66pine]

View attachment 71893
Note that the blurred rectangle does not just cover the body lying on the ground &#8212; it has been extended upwards in order to obscure what I'm guessing is an officer leaning over the body. Why was he blurred out? Are they trying to conceal what the officer is doing?

First question - who applied the blur box? Amateur vid'er/cellphone user? TV station before airing vid? LE?
One only or a combo of above?

 

[Fred Hall]

bbm

Fred Hall,
Thanks for posting these stills & vids & doing the measurement.
Must have taken some time & effort to figure it out.

Not much room for ambulance to squeeze into alley.
Seems LE w/want to preserve scene, prevent ambu driving thru shell casings, etc.,even if 'extra' LEO vehicles were moved.

Did LEOs move her from inside car to beside car, then EMTs moved her to alley end/mouth,
then left her in place there for a bit -where vid was made?
Or did LEOs move her from inside car, all the way, 100 feet, to alley end/mouth, left her there to wait for EMTs?

I think that EMTs would have taken the driver directly to the ambulance rather than placing her on the ground at the mouth of the lane.

 

[Fred Hall]

First question - who applied the blur box? Amateur vid'er/cellphone user? TV station before airing vid? LE?
One only or a combo of above?

The blur box can be seen to spill over the edge of the smart-phone. This suggests that it was applied by the TV station.

 

[Yoda]

View attachment 71889
This clip shows about a half second of censored amateur video taken of the mouth of the lane. A blur box has been applied over what I presume is the driver's body. According to google earth she is about 100 feet from where the stolen car rests. Did an officer carry her?
View attachment 71890
View attachment 71891

Good find.
I can't make out any thing because of the blur and speed of the clip shown, but I do wonder why JH is so far away from the vehicle. It's weird that no one, witnesses, etc. mentioned her being moved so far. My assumption from all we have found was that she was pulled from the vehicle, cuffed, rolled and then treated within 20 ft of the car.

 

[CoolJ]

Cool J -
Good question.
IIUC, you are speculating about this -
LEO on patrol in area noticed car w loud music & sitting in alley but no call to 911.
He ran plates, learned car was reported stolen, and then same events.
Would that change things?

What if he drove by, noticed loud music, returned an hourlater, or two hours later, ran plates, etc. Change things?

Are you asking whether, without a 911 call, an LEO may lawfully run plates?
Does LEO need probable cause to run plates?
Were his observations of car w loud music & occupants in alley, without 911 call, sufficient to run plates?

Maybe LEO saw them passing a joint or smelled MJ. Or not. IDK.

Yes that's right, I am asking about probable cause. Was the reason for running plates because 911 call or because a car full of teenagers. And does it matter? Was there a BOLO for the car? When was it determined car was stolen? Was car a strangers or family/friend?
Too many questions in this case to form an opinion. IMO

 

[Yoda]

In that same news report another passenger said she was shot too- flesh wound. I don't remember seeing that either.