CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #5

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I think both Kelsey's mom and PF's attorney have used the word "fiance." So I would think they were, at least at one time, engaged, though it could have been an open ended engagement with no date ever set. Or perhaps they just used the word "engaged" for appearance.

You should review the written statements and the interview with his lawyer. He never says “fiancé” or “engaged.” He says they haven’t discussed the nature of their relationship, he knows only that they share a child together.

I have said before, I doubt PF and KB are engaged. I think that’s a story she told her <modsnip> mom to mitigate the out of wedlock baby! The only one who says they are engaged is CB. <modsnip discussing family>

Also, when Kelsey’s Aunt said she broke up with her SO the night before TDay, we don’t know that PF was that person. Maybe it was a different guy that KB never told her family about. And maybe he’s bad news. And now he is getting off Scott free without scrutiny while PF is put through the ringer. This is also a possibility that should be examined.

KB’s apparent lack of friends (at least none coming forward) means nobody has any clue what was happening in her life for sure. Just CB’s version... the narrative she wants us to all believe because it paints her daughter as pure and innocent. I understand why she would do this. There is no evil in her motives. But investigators cannot let CB control the facts. They are not facts just because she says so.

IMHO
 
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You should review the written statements and the interview with his lawyer. He never says “fiancé” or “engaged.” He says they haven’t discussed the nature of their relationship, he knows only that they share a child together.

I have said before, I doubt PF and KB are engaged. I think that’s a story she told her <modsnip> mom to mitigate the out of wedlock baby! The only one who says they are engaged is CB. <modsnip discussing family>

Also, when Kelsey’s Aunt said she broke up with her SO the night before TDay, we don’t know that PF was that person. Maybe it was a different guy that KB never told her family about. And maybe he’s bad news. And now he is getting off Scott free without scrutiny while PF is put through the ringer. This is also a possibility that should be examined.

KB’s apparent lack of friends (at least none coming forward) means nobody has any clue what was happening in her life for sure. Just CB’s version... the narrative she wants us to all believe because it paints her daughter as pure and innocent. I understand why she would do this. There is no evil in her motives. But investigators cannot let CB control the facts. They are not facts just because she says so.

IMHO
oh she broke up with him the night before Thanksgiving well this makes it all the more he is the one who did her in. Give it a couple days and he'll be in jail.
 
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KB had a 70 mile one way commute to work. Not unusual to have a family vehicle, and another for commuting. I do.

Until recently I had 2 as well. A sports car for “fun” driving and then a SUV for winter/realistic driving. The sports car is gone now :(. Anyway, she may be the same-one car for bad weather and hauling, one normal car. Not too unusual.
 
Just caught up and wanted to add a few thoughts.

Great points, Gitana. While occasionally members of the public find or report leads that help investigators, they don’t owe us any disclosure. They owe Kelsey justice and shouldn’t compromise that end to satisfy people like us.

I continue to think the most likely outcome is that Kelsey met with foul play at the hands of someone close to her, which is why it makes sense that they are searching her fiance’s family’s property. I expected that to happen.

AND I share everyone’s disbelief that the fiancé hasn’t made even minimal attempts to appear publicly cooperative. He didn’t report her missing, has not sat down with investigators, didn’t come to the press conference, isn’t personally calling for her safe return, and isn’t publicly organizing search parties.

The most likely explanation for acting in this manner, in my opinion, is that he has something to hide. As even *if* he was no longer her fiancé, even an innocent man would tell police what he knows and might come out on a media interview and say, “Those who know us know that Kelsey and I haven’t been in a close relationship for some time. But we continued to work together for the sake of raising our daughter. I join everyone else in praying for the safe return of my daughter’s mother.”

My strongest leaning is that he is involved.

However, I always want to uphold the purest form of justice, that doesn’t project the most likely scenario on every person but leaves room for facts to prove out another less likely scenario.

Since there is *yet* to be a body, blood, or any sign of a struggle, and since there is *yet* to be any video footage to prove or disprove the timeline after Safeway, I still do leave a little room for other possibilities. In part because 800 miles is a long way to go for a ping, in part bc PF’s initial story seemed to have satisfied investigators for a time, in part bc of comments like those Kelsey’s cousin made (i.e. why did no one report her? it’s a long story...you’ll understand when it comes out).

The only other possibility that makes PF’s behavior make any sense to me given the little we know now, although veryyyyy unlikely, is this:

—If, hypothetically, Kelsey and PF hadn’t been officially together for a long time. Maybe they were still open to getting back together someday, for example, but had called off any exclusive relationship or engagement. It’s possible LE has even been able to confirm something like this with locals who know them.

—If, hypothetically, PF genuinely knows Kelsey left on her own accord, but he himself cannot explain how the time has stretched out so long. There is sensitive information about Kelsey and/or their relationship that he is protecting from the public bc of either loyalty to Kelsey or to protect his daughter’s future reputation.

—If, hypothetically, PF sees participating in the investigation as if he was the “most intimate person to her” as a farce or untruth because he operates as more of an acquaintance and civil co-parent in reality. If that were the case, he may be stalling bc he may expect Kelsey to return and clear this all up in time.

—If, hypothetically, Kelsey met with death or foul play at the hands of someone else, PF may know that he is statistically the most likely suspect. He may feel like he has to do everything he can to ensure his daughter does not lose access to her only remaining parent.

And be clear I am not blaming Kelsey...nor discussing alternatives bc I want to further victimize women who disappear at the hands of others. By all accounts, Kelsey seems like an outstanding human being who left little evidence to suggest she is anything besides a stable and loving working mother. But although we all see what is most likely, real justice (and plenty of other cases) demands we await evidence to rule out other possible outcomes we have seen in other cases. That includes that she was harmed by someone other than the partner we know about (Mollie T case), that she could’ve had an accident (Toni A.), that she, for reasons we don’t understand, could have exercised her right as an independent woman to leave for some time on her own accord (although unlikely, we have many examples of this as well).

I hope, and I honestly somewhat expect, the search warrant will yield answers. So if anyone participated in harming or holding Kelsey on that property, I hope they have not been able to destroy all evidence given the nature of farms and construction equipment and rural back country and so forth. But I feel like this is a patience game. We need more information to understand the full picture. And I have become excited about search warrants before (RL - Delphi), only for them to turn up no connection and the investigation to then turn elsewhere.

I’ve said, I hope they release more information in case some of what they say would help provoke public memory...and maybe prompt someone to recall an important detail. But I understand and respect they might not be able to tell us more.
 
You know I don't know. I don't think it runs contrary to almost any missing person's case at this stage of the game. LE are usually tight-lipped in such cases and warn loved ones to be so as well. Even about things like that.

It comes down to LE doesn't need or wants us amateurs to try to do their job for them. They don't need any of us to come up with theories or assist them in any way in doing their jobs, except for spreading information so people can be on the alert for her or call in if they become aware of the case and remember something, and by giving them info if anyone has any that is pertinent, such as sightings or communications or observations involving the people in this case.

The CBI and the FBI are handling this case. They really don't want the public trying to get involved unless they already are involved in some way.

Although I know you're only talking about info that you think may not be material to the case (to me it's pretty relevant) so this is not directed at you, but I have noticed in general this sort of incredulity lately in multiple cases, that LE isn't giving us their information and handing their case over to us, and a feeling of entitlement to it as if they need us to do their work for them.

That attitude surprises me. LE can't risk the integrity of a case to satisfy a curious public. Nor should they. The CBI and the FBI are the pros here and know what they're doing. Even when cases aren't solved in a couple weeks and even when there are no arrests. Not hearing our theories isn't what's holding up justice in such cases, IMO.

I’m often so torn on LE not needing help. While they are highly trained and likely good at their jobs, there is always benefit in “group think”. As an investigator/analyst, it’s helpful to try to identify any and all possibilities, especially early in an investigation. For example, who would have thought that Natalie Bollinger really did put a hit out on herself on Craigslist? Sometimes the most out-there possibilities happen, and they can’t all possibly be thought of by a small group. I guess if they feel that the public is required for that purpose, they release more information. While several groups are just people with no experience in crime, there are also places (like WS) where people have spent years studying cases and researching murders and missing people. It’s a missed opportunity of help sometimes.
 
I don't understand reports by PF's attorney and LE that PF has been "cooperating". He gave DNA and his phone, and then he lawyered up and refuses to be questioned. His actions are really disturbing. We are getting mixed messages from LE and PF's attorney. I also understand he has family in LE locally. I hope that does not give him any protection or advanced warning of where this investigation is headed. So many questions, starting with PF not reporting KB missing. And if PF runs a cattle ranch, how can he care for the baby without help? None of the pieces here are coming together. IMO
 
I watched the video that was provided yesterday although the feed was from earlier.
Fox31KDVR out of Denver IIRC.
"SEARCH WARRANT EXECUTED: This is an overhead view of the property of Kelsey Berreth's fiance, Patrick Frazee. Law enforcement officers are executing a search warrant there.
Due to lack of signal in the mountains, this is playback from earlier this morning."
Hoping there is an answer for Kelsey and her entire family very soon and as always so wishing it could be a positive one.
Chi

Lack of signal in the mountains...something is still bothering me about the ping. It’s probably not even a critical fact about the case, but I feel that he likely didn’t go anywhere near Idaho with her phone. I feel he could have done that all from home. If so, I will bet she is found within the normal radius of the perp/victim location
 
oh she broke up with him the night before Thanksgiving well this makes it all the more he is the one who did her in. Give it a couple days and he'll be in jail.
Kelsey’s Aunt said broke up with boyfriend and he said she was going to visit her grandma. This was way back early on threat #1.

We absolutely don’t know that PF was this boyfriend! Why would they have a child custody arrangement all worked out when they broke up the day before? That doesn’t pass smell test! PF and KB broke up long ago. And whoever this boyfriend was is not even being discussed.

@Kelsey’sAunt... can you clarify?
 
Wasn't Mark Klass questioned when Polly went missing? He now says go and tell everything so police can clear you and move on!
With that said they crucified Isabel Celis father each time he stepped up to the microphone!
There is so much we don't know about Kelsy!
 
Is LE back at PF’s house today for continued searching? So would PF and any others in that house have to stay somewhere else until the search is completed, days from now?
Yes, they will be at PF's through the weekend. PF and his mother are not on the property during the search.
 
I don't understand reports by PF's attorney and LE that PF has been "cooperating". He gave DNA and his phone, and then he lawyered up and refuses to be questioned. His actions are really disturbing. We are getting mixed messages from LE and PF's attorney. I also understand he has family in LE locally. I hope that does not give him any protection or advanced warning of where this investigation is headed. So many questions, starting with PF not reporting KB missing. And if PF runs a cattle ranch, how can he care for the baby without help? None of the pieces here are coming together. IMO

I understand his mother helps with the baby.
 
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