CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #51 *ARREST*

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This is just crazy speculation, but if KB was pregnant again this would be a double homicide with "special circumstances". jmvho

wouldn't KB have told CB if she was pregnant a second time? I keep thinking of PF's "time line" starting in September and telling KK 'you'll have another chance.' I know we discussed this before. I never understood what was driving the time line.
 
Re. PF possibly smearing blood all over her house intentionally. I’m not sure whether I said it, but I’ve often thought it.

In my mind, the driver for that would be anger at KL. It takes ‘Clean THAT’ one step further, and would explain why the blood was found in so many places.
Possibly. But beating someone to death would also spread blood all over, I mean it is basically like smashing a melon or a sponge inside of a thin paper bag. Head wounds bleed a lot and she probably wasn't killed immediately and he found he had to strike her repeatedly to kill her and her heart likely beat a little longer, pumping out copious amounts of blood. I think he might have dragged her into the bathroom and put her in the shower until he came back with the tote. JMO/
 
But that doesn't take into account the "tooth with a root" KK had to recover from the vent.

Nope, it doesn't.
But the bat sure accounts for the tooth.

I have no problem believing PF used a bat to murder KB, which is to say, I think he absolutely used a baseball bat to murder KK.
It fits with his base, primitive, violent nature.
I think PF told KK the truth about using the bat, and KK related that info to LE.

PF lacks the intellectual capacity to devise some intricate plot-within-a-plot scenario wherein he comes up with the bat story as a cover for a shooting death.
I think it's much, much simpler than that.

Clearly, it bears repeating: This is PF we're talking about here.
Dude's a complete moron.

Wet wipes, anyone?

All of the Above: JMO.
 
Spot on!

I get worried when we start discussing motives. For example, let’s say the prosecution argues motive was custody. Then defense may come back and proves PF wasn’t looking for custody. Or if they said motive was money and it turns out he actually was providing support. A jury could look at it and say, well, he didn’t have that motive.. therefore he didn’t do it.

Even hatred doesn’t seem motive enough to swing a bat into the head of the mother of your child to the point her teeth are knocked out by their roots. Splatter her blood into far corners of multiple rooms. With your baby mere steps away. On Thanksgiving.

That is beyond hate. It’s disturbed and subhuman.

I agree with you, Love Never Fails.

PF is a psychopath.
I see what you mean, but I think PF's lies about KB also point to premeditation. I'm not sure the prosecution has to prove a motive, but it certainly wouldn't hurt especially if they don't find the body.
 
I see what you mean, but I think PF's lies about KB also point to premeditation. I'm not sure the prosecution has to prove a motive, but it certainly wouldn't hurt especially if they don't find the body.
Yeah. Motive isn’t a requirement, but it certainly helps a jury understand “the why.”

Plenty of people have been convicted of crimes, without an obvious motive.

I do think that the prosecution will be able to make a compelling argument that PF’s motive was in fact custody though.
 
Yeah. Motive isn’t a requirement, but it certainly helps a jury understand “the why.”

Plenty of people have been convicted of crimes, without an obvious motive.

I do think that the prosecution will be able to make a compelling argument that PF’s motive was in fact custody though.
Motive can be tricky. It isn't an element necessary to prove to convict of murder (or really any crime). But as you point out, a jury wants to know. Usually its not a problem. But if a motive isn't clear, and the prosecution puts forth a motive theory, and then the defense blows that up, shows how that couldn't be true, the jury can get a feeling that the prosecution is way off base. I am guessing that in this case, the prosecution actually has a solid motive, we just haven't heard it.
 
wouldn't KB have told CB if she was pregnant a second time? I keep thinking of PF's "time line" starting in September and telling KK 'you'll have another chance.' I know we discussed this before. I never understood what was driving the time line.

I haven't heard of any evidence whatsoever that suggests KB was pregnant.
There was none presented at the pc hearing, e.g., no pregnancy kits, no recent or upcoming scheduled appts. with any ob-gyn, etc.

In fact, what evidence has been disclosed definitely supports that she was NOT pregnant, i.e., the infamous bloody tampon.

Occam says that was KB's tampon and she was on her period. Ergo, she wasn't pregnant.

I'm with Occam. That guy is one sharp razor!

As opposed to, well....we all know who. The world's biggest dullard.

JMO.
 
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there was a receipt for the Tums and whatever in KB's vehicle, FWIW- if PF really started planning to kill KB in September, why was she getting him meds at 2 a.m. ? Did he have total contempt for her, so had her do several chores before he killed her? Killers have done stranger things IMO.

Oh I think he was plotting and planning KB's murder for a long time and enjoying every minute of it.
For someone like PF, the idea that he had power over KB's life, and that he could switch it off when he wanted to must have been empowering for him, as he likely had little control over other areas of his life.

Controllers often have deep-seated issues of powerlessness.

We know PF wanted to keep his own hands clean which is why he solicited others to actually kill KB, so they could take the fall for it -- another horrible, cowardly character trait from an already cold, manipulative bully who lacks empathy and compassion.

I do think PF had total contempt for KB -- he knew he wanted to get rid of her in a manner that empowered him (it wouldn't have been enough for him if KB found another guy and started a new life, PF wanted to call all the shots) and this was a game he was playing. He probably led KB on right until he murdered her, pretending to make up with her and giving the relationship another chance, and smirking to himself all the while knowing those scented candles were his inside joke.

He is a sick, evil creature and it must have stimulated his ego knowing that the woman he was going to kill was willing to still try to work things out because she loved him and didn't have any idea of his murderous inclinations. He obviously over-estimated himself as a "ladies man".

Idiot. I think Dan May has a lot more on this monster than we know right now, and I cannot wait to see PF stammering and sweating when he gets LWOP.

Edited to add: I'm with GK on this one. Occam's. I don't think KB was pregnant at her time of death and I do believe she was beaten to death with a baseball bat. I don't think there's any other cloak and dagger stuff going on. Simply because we all know that PF is clumsy, stupid and a poor strategist, with as much creative imagination as a horse fly.

moo
 
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With regard to motive, IMHO, PF spells it out himself in items 13 a-e of the complaint filed by the Bs:
"13. During that same December 2, 2018 call, when Cheryl-Lee Berreth pressed for
additional details, Frazee knowingly and deliberately communicated to Plaintiffs the following false statements, misrepresentations, and/or calculated omissions:

a. Frazee had “had enough and wasn’t going to deal with things anymore;
b. when he and Kelsey were together it always started out good and then went bad;
c. Kelsey “put him down” in front of KB;
d. Kelsey didn’t always return home directly after she got off of work and that she had gone out to dinner with some co-workers; and
e. Following and in explanation of her disappearance, Frazee suggested that Kelsey
may have flown somewhere with a friend or co-worker."
In these statements, there is some truth. PF had indeed "had enough"; he wanted his freedom, didn't want to deal with sharing custody, didn't want to marry KB, basically didn't want to compromise as couples do. Putting him down in front of the baby is ludicrous, and KB going out to dinner with co-workers (thus avoiding the afternoon commute) speaks to his controlling nature. He couldn't control KB as he would have liked. He didn't want to continue with the relationship and all of its subsidiary obligations. MOO

http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/Amended+complaint+vs+Patrick+Frazee.pdf
 
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I think it is possible that PF lied to KK about the bat as well. He really shot her. Smeared blood all over the apartment intentionally. She cleans it, he gives her the gun. He stages the fire so she thinks KB was burned up. Plan A is that KB is never found and no one charged, but he is preparing plan B at the same time. At or just before trial, KB's body is found, her head isn't beat in, she has a bullet hole in her head and her body isn't burned up. Suddenly KK's testimony is entirely suspect. This is why the DA really wants to find that body and is expending tremendous resources at the landfill. He wants to verify that burning story and not worry about last minute surprises.
Just based on too many hours watching forensics shows, I think LE can tell whether blood spatter at the crime scene was caused by a gun, a knife or blunt force trauma even when it has been cleaned up.

They can even tell where the perpetrator was standing when the murder weapon was used. (You've seen all those strings they use to map it.)

(I bet they've been able to inform PF more about what he did than he even remembers.)

I don't think what is left of KB's body will tell them much about her cause of death but I do believe it will confirm the burning in the tote.

One tiny bone encased in that black plastic will be the final nail in ole cowboy's coffin.

Justice is comin' 'round the mountain. MOO
 
With regard to motive, IMHO, PF spells it out himself in items 13 a-e of the complaint filed by the Bs:
"13. During that same December 2, 2018 call, when Cheryl-Lee Berreth pressed for
additional details, Frazee knowingly and deliberately communicated to Plaintiffs the following false statements, misrepresentations, and/or calculated omissions:

a. Frazee had “had enough and wasn’t going to deal with things anymore;
b. when he and Kelsey were together it always started out good and then went bad;
c. Kelsey “put him down” in front of KB;
d. Kelsey didn’t always return home directly after she got off of work and that she had gone out to dinner with some co-workers; and
e. Following and in explanation of her disappearance, Frazee suggested that Kelsey
may have flown somewhere with a friend or co-worker."
In these statements, there is some truth. PF had indeed "had enough"; he wanted his freedom, didn't want to deal with sharing custody, didn't want to marry KB, basically didn't want to compromise as couples do. Putting him down in front of the baby is ludicrous, and KB going out to dinner with co-workers (thus avoiding the afternoon commute) speaks to his controlling nature. He couldn't control KB as he would have liked. He didn't want to continue with the relationship and all of its subsidiary obligations. MOO

http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/Amended+complaint+vs+Patrick+Frazee.pdf

yeah- the objection to "going out to dinner with co workers," which most normal people would do on occasion, always struck me as particularly idiotic. Maybe PF just hated KB having a condo and a job and co workers. Maybe he only wanted her to toss cattle cubes, but even then he was not satisfied with her.
 
yeah- the objection to "going out to dinner with co workers," which most normal people would do on occasion, always struck me as particularly idiotic. Maybe PF just hated KB having a condo and a job and co workers. Maybe he only wanted her to toss cattle cubes, but even then he was not satisfied with her.

From what we can deduce, PF felt inferior to KB because she was everything he wasn't and could never be, including giving birth and being a good mother to his daughter, baby K.

People liked KB, she was quietly confident, good at her job, motivated, had very strong faith, adored her baby. PF had none of this. He was an empty, soulless psychopath, and like those who have done what he did, killed because they were unable to feel or have meaningful careers, control, relationships or passions.

No matter what KB would have done to appease PF or Mother Frazee, they would always have found fault and found her lacking.
Frazee had KB is his sites and he was not going to let her live.

Stalkers hell-bent on killing the person they're obsessed with do the same. There is NO action KB or anyone else could have taken to stop PF doing what he wanted to do, which was end KB's life.

And if he had gotten away with it and had custody of Baby K, I believe that when she rebelled against his control and bullying she would have become another PF victim.

This man's life and actions were all leading up to his destiny to kill.

moo
 
Good post.

I bet child support was low on his list of motives. He had a great chance at primary custody if she chose to move.

But my sense is it's all about possession. That kid is his. Doesn't belong to anyone else. He didn't want to share. I think he felt outraged at the thought of having to go tocourt to assert his rights.

I think this guy has been enabled and is deeply enmeshed with his mother so he views his child similarly- as a narcissistic supply tool. An extension and reflection of himself without a separate identity or rights or needs outside his own, like the need to have a relationship with both parents.

He seems spoiled and angry and wasn't about to allow the government or some stupid woman tell him when he could have his kid.

So he got rid of the problem.

I KNEW his mother would try to battle for custody. It just makes perfect sense looking at his character and family situation.

She can barely walk, has a small ranch to now manage on her own and a son fighting murder charges. But she was going to get that baby.

To me, that's what this was all about. And I haw a feeling mama Frazier could've known something about the plan before it was executed. She was the first person he called.

P.S., anyone have an update on the custody case?
Gitana, I agree with you about the money and child support.

I don't think PF thinks about money a lot as he hasn't ever received a paycheck or had bills to pay because the assets all belong to Mama.

When I let myself go down a "Made for TV-Movie" route, I do imagine a mother and son concocting a plan to lure a woman to town for the purpose of making an heir.....and keeping it.

I'm not accusing, not sleuthing...just imagining.
 
Gitana, I agree with you about the money and child support.

I don't think PF thinks about money a lot as he hasn't ever received a paycheck or had bills to pay because the assets all belong to Mama.

When I let myself go down a "Made for TV-Movie" route, I do imagine a mother and son concocting a plan to lure a woman to town for the purpose of making an heir.....and keeping it.

I'm not accusing, not sleuthing...just imagining.

Furthermore, even those who say PF had no motive to kill if he WAS ALREADY paying child support, I disagree.

Perhaps PF paid some child support for a month or two but got tired of it quickly and realized his finances were going to be depleted fast, working on the Franchette didn't pay lots of $$$$$$$$$.

He likely thought what the benefit was to him, realized there was none and decided in his total selfishness that a good ROI would be to kill KB and then have full control and support of Kaylee. And love and sympathy for the "horror" he endured with "nasty" Kelsey B.

PF's rage was NOT entirely for financial reasons, it was for control reasons, and if he could benefit financially, it probably enhanced his "aww shucks" evil little dopamine brain surges.

MOO
 
Oh I think he was plotting and planning KB's murder for a long time and enjoying every minute of it.
For someone like PF, the idea that he had power over KB's life, and that he could switch it off when he wanted to must have been empowering for him, as he likely had little control over other areas of his life.

Controllers often have deep-seated issues of powerlessness.

We know PF wanted to keep his own hands clean which is why he solicited others to actually kill KB, so they could take the fall for it -- another horrible, cowardly character trait from an already cold, manipulative bully who lacks empathy and compassion.

I do think PF had total contempt for KB -- he knew he wanted to get rid of her in a manner that empowered him (it wouldn't have been enough for him if KB found another guy and started a new life, PF wanted to call all the shots) and this was a game he was playing. He probably led KB on right until he murdered her, pretending to make up with her and giving the relationship another chance, and smirking to himself all the while knowing those scented candles were his inside joke.

He is a sick, evil creature and it must have stimulated his ego knowing that the woman he was going to kill was willing to still try to work things out because she loved him and didn't have any idea of his murderous inclinations. He obviously over-estimated himself as a "ladies man".

Idiot. I think Dan May has a lot more on this monster than we know right now, and I cannot wait to see PF stammering and sweating when he gets LWOP.

Edited to add: I'm with GK on this one. Occam's. I don't think KB was pregnant at her time of death and I do believe she was beaten to death with a baseball bat. I don't think there's any other cloak and dagger stuff going on. Simply because we all know that PF is clumsy, stupid and a poor strategist, with as much creative imagination as a horse fly.

moo
Excellent post, nwmouse!

I believe that PF, when he first felt the fury against Kelsey, excitedly pictured himself bashing in her head.

Little voices of reason told him he would get caught so he lured KK back into his life and began the "KB abuses the baby" routine.

He kept developing the murder fantasy with her as they mooned over their "happily-ever-after".

I suspect he though KK would come and do the deed over Thanksgiving and when she didn't, he lost it and went bat-crazy, carrying out his initial plan. MOO
 
Excellent post, nwmouse!

I believe that PF, when he first felt the fury against Kelsey, excitedly pictured himself bashing in her head.

Little voices of reason told him he would get caught so he lured KK back into his life and began the "KB abuses the baby" routine.

He kept developing the murder fantasy with her as they mooned over their "happily-ever-after".

I suspect he though KK would come and do the deed over Thanksgiving and when she didn't, he lost it and went bat-crazy, carrying out his initial plan. MOO

Well we do know he tried to get various individuals to along with his ridiculous 'KILL KB for hire' plot, because he's a cowardly arse-wipe.

His hitmen for hire attempts all failed pathetically which probably enraged him even more.

He wasn't deterred and decided to enthusiastically pursue his fantasy of killing KB and being the "poor, hard-done-by cowboy deddeh", he threw logic to the wind and enlisted rodeo girl KK who'd been around the ring a few times, to carry out his plan.

Fail, on both ends.

I can only wonder what went through PF's tiny mind when he realized that KK had turned and spilled the cowpies. He must have been livid! I don't think for a second that KB ever though KK and her love of Sonic treats would betray him. I wish I'd been a fly on the jail wall.:eek::eek:o_O Maybe not...

moo
 
Furthermore, even those who say PF had no motive to kill if he WAS ALREADY paying child support, I disagree.

Perhaps PF paid some child support for a month or two but got tired of it quickly and realized his finances were going to be depleted fast, working on the Franchette didn't pay lots of $$$$$$$$$.


He likely thought what the benefit was to him, realized there was none and decided in his total selfishness that a good ROI would be to kill KB and then have full control and support of Kaylee. And love and sympathy for the "horror" he endured with "nasty" Kelsey B.

PF's rage was NOT entirely for financial reasons, it was for control reasons, and if he could benefit financially, it probably enhanced his "aww shucks" evil little dopamine brain surges.

MOO

BBMFF:

I'm in complete agreement with this.

I will be absolutely, positively shocked if DA May's presentation/explanation of PF's motive for murdering KB does not include a financial component.

PF didn't want to "share" his money any more than he wanted to "share" custody.

Financial/Monetary factors + Custodial/Control issues = Motive.
That's the formula that makes the most sense to me.
I really don't think that's going to be a hard sell to a jury.

JMO.
 
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BBMFF:

I'm in complete agreement with this.

I will be absolutely, positively shocked if DA May's presentation/explanation of PF's motive for murdering KB does not include a financial component.
Of course PF would want control of his finances, especially his earnings.

He would not want to "share" his money any more than he would want to "share" custody.

Financial/Monetary factors + Custodial/Control issues = Motive.
That's the formula that makes the most sense to me.
I really don't think that's going to be a hard sell to a jury.

JMO.

Yup. PF is basically a lone wolf who doesn't like sharing anything.

He's a controlling psychopath and I think as he got older, control became more important to him.

And none more important than his daughter and her mother (if she got in the way). KB was easily disposed of, but because baby K was part of KB himself, PF decided to keep her, believing he'd have total control of her too.

Kk and Sonic. I have a Sonic close by but never tried it. I'm more of a McMuffin gal.

Edited to add: $$ got in the way of both CW and PF's rose-colored specs.
 
BBMFF:

I'm in complete agreement with this.

I will be absolutely, positively shocked if DA May's presentation/explanation of PF's motive for murdering KB does not include a financial component.

PF didn't want to "share" his money any more than he wanted to "share" custody.

Financial/Monetary factors + Custodial/Control issues = Motive.
That's the formula that makes the most sense to me.
I really don't think that's going to be a hard sell to a jury.

JMO.
I think this case is going to be logical and simple to sell to a jury.

Jurors are a lot more intelligent and savvy than some give them for, and KK is a good witness for the prosecution.

She's a nasty human being, but intelligent enough to make it stick for a jury to find her believable.

To those who think PF might get off because KK lied: KK is a lousy, rotten human being but she is not stupid, she is very believable because she's so human, nasty and relatable. I personally dislike her intensely but if she can place the nail in PF's murder coffin then I'm going along with it. She has a nursing degree. She is intelligent enough to believe when she says PF is the mastermind behind KB's death.

Sonic sickens me and most but there is a glimmer of truth as to WHY she did it.

And I have faith enough to believe that a jury of PF's peers will find him guilty of murder without reasonable doubt and that he will get LWOP. What else can ANYONE with a small brain and IQ of room temp conclude???
 
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