CO - Pagosa Springs, WhtMale 1282UMCO, 20-28, Oct'82 *Stewart Simmons*

Discussion in 'Identified!' started by not_my_kids, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    I don't have a whole lot that I am basing this on, except that the time and geography seem to fit pretty good. The missing man doesn't look like the composite of the Doe, but for some reason the composite of a man that might have had blond hair, is drawn all in dark pencil. So, it makes it hard to do a basic comparison. I keep focusing on the dark hair.

    So, here it is. There are dental x-rays for Doe posted, and the missing man seems to have a gap in his teeth, but I can't make my eyes focus well enough to even tell what I am looking at.

    Missing:
    http://charleyproject.org/cases/a/ambrose_bryan.html
    http://doenetwork.org/ 3345DMCO

    Doe:
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1282umco.html
    https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=5327&pos=5&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

    Hopefully someone better with dental xrays will come along.
     
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  3. Snufamonbobball

    Snufamonbobball But O for the touch of the vanished hand & the sou

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    He seems like a reasonable comparison (imho). The timing for him is perfect, and I always think of reconstructions as kind of eye candy. They're great to make you take a second look, but don't bet the farm on them. Even morgue photos can be misleading. If the photos aren't taken at the same angle, the lighting, swelling, ect.... ect.... The blue bandanna girl dosen't look anything like her reconstructions.
    I see the gap, but I don't have any idea how that would translate on dentals.
     
  4. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Yeah, the timing is absolutely perfect. Maybe too perfect, but I'm hoping not.
    Ambrose's story has gotten to me since the first time I read it, he seemed to be a good guy, trying to get his life together and support his little family and it ended in the worst possible way. I have hoped for a while that there would be a match, but for some reason I kept skipping over this Doe. I hadn't seen him before. I wish that we had more in the way of stats on Ambrose.
    I'm going to go see if I can find some gaptoothed dental xrays for comparison.
     
  5. raindrops300

    raindrops300 New Member

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    I don't see any height/weight on Ambrose anywhere. It would be helpful. I do think this is a reasonable match though and that you should pursue it.
     
  6. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Not having any luck with finding other dentals radiographs to compare. I need an expert.

    And also wondering, if he had been dead 3-4 weeks, why did they add stubble to the man's chin? Would you still be able to see chin stubble after that long? That sketch is throwing me for too many loops, I need to just stop looking at it.
    ETA: The description says it was a beard, the drawing shoes stubble. I am officially not looking at the composite again. It's making things worse.
     
  7. momtective

    momtective Lifetime WS Non-Mod

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    I see the Doe had signs of previously fractured right clavicle. If it could be verified that Bryan had at one time fractured his clavicle, it would defiantly improve the possibility of a match.
     
  8. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    I already know I'm going to have to do some calling come Monday, but I thought I'd let you guys take a look first.
    I'm a little sick of flying solo all the time.
     
  9. LookyLu

    LookyLu New Member

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    Looks like a good possibility to me but I'm a rookie to all this and just trying to soak up as much info as I can before jumping in. But, I would certainly think it's worth making some calls over on Monday if that helps at all. Good find! ~Cindy
     
  10. Snufamonbobball

    Snufamonbobball But O for the touch of the vanished hand & the sou

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    Now that you gave me your cold, you're not flying solo anymore! lol-- cough, cough. I've looked around for x rays of a front gap (like before it was closed and after), and I can't quite find what I'm looking for. I did however find a very complete website on chinchilla dentistry- I had no idea you could close a gap on a chinchilla- go figure.:waitasec:
     
  11. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Well, Snuf, you found chinchilla dentistry and and I found horse dentistry. Some sleuthers we are.
    All I want is a nice simple picture of a smile with a front gap and a handy little arrow pointing at the same gap on a xray.
    I would even welcome notes, such as, "Hey, you, look here, right here."
     
  12. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Good morning. It is 8:30 am in my corner of the world and as soon as I feed the kiddos and wake the fiancee, I am going to see there is any other available info on Ambrose, like if he has been compared to the Doe, maybe a height and weight, the basics. I'll also check on the broken collarbone, see if he had one at any known time.
     
  13. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Waiting for a callback. If I don't get anything tomorrow, I'll call back on Wednesday.
     
  14. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    I also went ahead and emailed the coroner that has the Doe, told him I had already tried to contact the detective and expected to hear back from him soon, but thought I would forward it to him, since he may have some information that would be quicker to rule out Bryan or make it seem more plausible a match.
     
  15. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    Return email from CO ME says that they were notified about 6 months ago and did not have enough for testing on Bryan. There has been a request made for updated info from the agency that is handling Bryan's case. Sounds like they are investigating it and he says they will gladly take any new info on either Doe or Bryan.
     
  16. Snufamonbobball

    Snufamonbobball But O for the touch of the vanished hand & the sou

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    Up all night I see, same here. It stinks about the DNA thing, but it's nice to know that when you see a potential match, it's not way off in left field. Great Job!!

    Snuf
     
  17. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

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    They are doing amazing things with DNA, and they may be able to get more info. I hope that they can get some way of comparing Bryan, just so they can make a match someday, whether this Doe is him or not.
     
  18. Roselvr

    Roselvr Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

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    I google mapped things they said
    Google Map link

    A. colorado springs - location he was at
    B. denver colorado - they said he went there. Someone said he got arrested.
    C. pueblo colorado - his truck was found there
    D. Archuleta County, Colorado - where they found Doe

    405 mi – about 8 hours 17 mins

    There's a lot I don't like about that sketch.
    For one how it says long brownish blond long hair.
    I also don't like they think they know the Doe's ancestry.

    I also looked up Eastern European - Eastern Europe is a region lying in the Eastern part of Europe. The term is highly context-dependent and there are "almost as many definitions of Eastern Europe as there are scholars of the region".[1] A related UN paper adds that "every assessment of spatial identities is essentially a social and cultural construct".[2]

    One prevailing definition describes Eastern Europe as a cultural entity: the region lying between Central Europe and Western Asia, with main characteristics consisting in Byzantine, Orthodox and limited Ottoman influences.[3][4] Another definition, considered outdated by some authors,[5][6] was created during the Cold War and used more or less synonymously with the term Eastern Bloc, including the countries that historically and geographically belong to Central Europe.[7] A third definition names the formerly Communist European states outside the Soviet Union as Eastern Europe,[8] though these countries are more commonly known as the constituents of Central and Eastern Europe.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not sure if you tried googling the shirt. I found this post
    Not asure if you found this larger drawing link 1 Link 2

    It also says Yellow T-Shirt sz large inscribed "Lazy B Guest Ranch Fallon, Nevada"
    Brown corduroy pants sz 31 waist, 31 inseam
    WHite brief style underwear size 34 JC Penney

    Link NamUs - look under photos

    Dentals on this doe are here

    Identify Us

    Demographics and Circumstances
    Estimated Age: Adult - Pre 30
    Minimum Age: 23 years
    Maximum Age: 28 years
    Race: White
    Ethnicity: N/A
    Sex: Male
    Weight (lbs.): 0, Cannot Estimate
    Height (inch): 70, N/A
    Condition: Putrefaction

    Probable Year of Death: 1982
    Est. Postmortem Interval: 3-4 Weeks
    DNA Profile Status: Complete - Insufficient DNA for profiling
    Circumstances of Death: N/A


    another post - A month later, on Oct. 22, another rancher nearby stumbled across a dead man who had been shot twice, his body in the river, eaten by coyotes.

    Apparently, what is listed there says he was with a girl that also turned up dead.

    Good luck, I have to stop now. Hopefully something I added helped
     
  19. Roselvr

    Roselvr Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs

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    From what I am reading at the link I left for "another post" - this does not sound like your John Doe

    Two bodies, no names

    *Snipped..

    John Doe was wearing a tan T-shirt with the logo of Lazy B Guest Ranch, a now-defunct brothel in Fallon, Nev. The reverse showed a map of brothels in that area.

    John Doe's body is buried at Fairview Memorial Park in Albuquerque in a grave marked only by a number.

    John and Jane Doe's skulls were separated from their bodies to aid in police reconstructions shortly after the crime, ending up in storage at a museum used by the New Mexico Office of the Medical Investigator, Barter said. That office did not return messages requesting comment.

    Evidence lostMuch of the evidence connected to the case has been lost, including Jane Doe's clothing. The case file itself was missing until an Archuleta County clerk found it in an old file cabinet.

    Turf disputes over the crime, which happened on the Colorado-New Mexico border, just east of Arboles, also have slowed the investigation.

    Prosecutors in Archuleta County and Rio Arriba County, N.M., fought over jurisdiction of the case, Barter said. New Mexico State Police officers who now are retired investigated, along with the Archuleta County Sheriff's Office. Evidence was split among law enforcement in Archuleta County, Rio Arriba County and state investigators in Albuquerque.

    Barter fears physical evidence was thrown out because of New Mexico's former 15-year statute of limitations on prosecuting murders.

    Barter said if investigators "had just done their jobs and preserved what was there," the victims' assailant or assailants would be in jail by now.


    Investigators know less about John Doe because his body was more badly decomposed. It had been at least eight weeks since his death when he was found. He was believed to be in his mid-20s, with a stocky build and reddish-blond hair. He may have worked for a carnival traveling around the area. Both were white.

    Barter got Mary Brazas, a Bernalillo County Sheriff's Office official, to draw new, more accurate reconstructions of the victims with the aid of computer technology. Older reconstructions done soon after the crime simply used clay and wigs.

    Theories emergeSeveral theories have emerged to explain why the two, who may have been a couple, were killed.

    Jane Doe may have been raped, and John Doe killed to get him out of the way, Barter said. It also could have been a drug deal gone bad. But Barter said both of these theories are only "wild guesses."

    No car has been tied to the victims and they are believed to have hitchhiked around the area, Barter said. They likely would have had few possessions worth stealing.

    Barter hopes someone still living can help him identify the victims and catch the killers.

    "This case epitomizes injustice," the detective said. "If there was justice in the world, (the killers) would be in jail, and we'd know who (the victims) were."

    A Colorado Bureau of Investigations agent in Durango, Jeff Brown, has helped track down leads for Barter. He said the bureau would not release any information about the investigation and referred questions to Archuleta County.

    The case became a bit more eerie when Barter and Brazas went to visit John Doe's grave. They found it in a line of gravestones devoted to unidentified victims.

    "There were fresh flowers on it," Barter said.

    Ranchers look backFrank Chavez, 76, and his brother Chris still raise cattle, goats, sheep, pigs and chickens at Rancho Juanita near where the bodies were found.

    The remote area is about 18 miles south of U.S. Highway 160, west of Pagosa Springs. A dirt road leads to Pagosa Junction, a place on the map marked only by a church and a crumbling railroad depot. The Chavez brothers live south of there, at Carracas, near where the San Juan River dips into New Mexico.

    The brothers think the bodies may have been thrown off the Carracas Bridge that spans the San Juan among cottonwoods and sagebrush on County Road 557. Both bodies were found downstream of there. But Barter said the bodies could have been dumped at any point upriver of where they were found.

    The brothers believe the killings were drug-related. Trafficking and a lack of law enforcement posed problems in the 1970s and early '80s, they said.

    "Planes used to fly by here real low," Chris Chavez said.

    Once, Chavez came upon a cleared area that appeared to be a drop zone for drugs.

    "The corridor here was drug-infested all the way up to Juanita," said Chavez, a former Archuleta County commissioner and Pagosa Springs businessman. "There was no law enforcement to speak of."

    But Barter said the Chavez brothers' theory that the killings were drug-related is only "speculative."


    Sheriff’s Department reopens 1982 murder case
     
  20. spamelope

    spamelope New Member

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    Splotches of blood and bullet casings discovered in an old school bus rusting away in a meadow of aqua sage brush on the New Mexico border have reignited interest in a 27-year- old double-homicide.

    A couple seen hitchhiking decades ago may have been picked up by someone who drove them to the bus, where the man was shot, and the woman strangled and possibly raped. Both bodies were dumped into the San Juan River.

    The two were killed in the summer of 1982, but only a few months later the case went cold after a jurisdictional dispute between investigators and prosecutors in Colorado and New Mexico. Though suspects were named, no one was ever arrested.


    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13535401?source=searchles
     
  21. SuziQ

    SuziQ Active Member

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    I wonder who left the flowers?

    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13535401?source=searchles

    (snip)
    "Somebody killed these people and so far have gotten away with it," Barter said. "But I'm not done with it."
    Recently, he went to an Albuquerque cemetery where the headless skeleton of "John Doe Co." is buried with about 40 other unidentified dead in a dusty corner section. His was the only one adorned with newly purchased synthetic flowers.
    "It gave me chills," Barter said. "It was very odd."
     

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