Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #19

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I'm open but Im more leaning toward planned in advance. And I think it's a good possibility the girls were dead first.

(Or maybe as others have surmised he did it all quickly, shortly before he had to leave for work).

The moments after he killed them, he might have been feeling some adrenaline.

She came home later than expected which may have caused him to be kind of freaking out if they kids were already dead, and not sticking to his plan as he worried about the possibility of her flight not getting in until the next day, when she would expect to talk to the girls by phone from the airport, or see texts of them being taken to school or whatever. Or he would've had to plan childcare arrangements: "Sorry my flight is delayed! Amanda is coming to pick up the kids at 5 so you can go work." (Now what).

Then, after the murders he was likely pumping with adrenaline for a bit. He has to time this perfectly. He might have forgotten some things like taking the stick out of the slider, and unlocking it, in all the "excitement".
Good points and I agree. Adrenaline was his friend and time was his enemy.
 
In the MacDonald case; Collette was the target of rage, Kimberly was collateral damage, and Kristin was sacrificed for the cover-up. Did something similar happen here? Rage and then cover-up?

I think this is a very good question and I've pondered the same thing myself. There is not much available online about the subject of collateral intimate partner homicide (CIPH), unfortunately. I did read what I could find and it might explain some things about the Watts case. JMO.

The focal victim is the intimate partner or former intimate partner of the perpetrator. Collateral victims are connected to the focal victim and can be members of the focal victim's family, their friends, and their children. There are documented cases where the collateral victims were also the biological child or children of the perpetrator.

In CIPH, it appears that in a large percentage of the cases, there was a previous incident or incidents of domestic violence.

Upon reading this, I recalled seeing pictures SW posted on SM of Celeste with a huge bump and scrapes on her forehead. SW also took a picture of her own hand that was badly bruised. I'll try to find those pictures and post the link.

I'm not saying these injuries were the result of domestic violence, but in light of what has happened, I'm not ruling it out. JMO.
 
I'm open but Im more leaning toward planned in advance. And I think it's a good possibility the girls were dead first.

(Or maybe as others have surmised he did it all quickly, shortly before he had to leave for work).

The moments after he killed them, he might have been feeling some adrenaline.

She came home later than expected which may have caused him to be kind of freaking out if they kids were already dead, and not sticking to his plan as he worried about the possibility of her flight not getting in until the next day, when she would expect to talk to the girls by phone from the airport, or see texts of them being taken to school or whatever. Or he would've had to plan childcare arrangements: "Sorry my flight is delayed! Amanda is coming to pick up the kids at 5 so you can go work." (Now what).

Then, after the murders he was likely pumping with adrenaline for a bit. He has to time this perfectly. He might have forgotten some things like taking the stick out of the slider, and unlocking it, in all the "excitement".
I think it’s possible that SW and CW got into a fight, and SW said something that absolutely infuriated him, and he lost it and strangled her. Then afterwards, realizing that he’d just committed murder, he came up with a plan to turn it on her to make it her fault. But People Mag said they have his phone, his texts, and his Internet searches, it was premeditated, so I’d rather believe that!
 
I strongly believe that SW had no opportunity to protect her children. I believe the first time the neighbors heard a dog in distress, it wasn't a dog, it was SW being shown her dead children. The dog then responded, already being stressed by the events he heard/sensed. While SW was in shock, CW subdued and murdered her. In such a state of shock she would probably barely fight back. The fact that the girls were already dead and the plane was so late, is why he had to proceed immediately with SW's killing and the cover-up. There may have been a brief confrontation when SW arrived home and then CW said; :Let me show you something."
You may very well be right about that sound, but I hope you are not. It hurts my heart to think of her suffering that kind of grief. If that is what happened, she may not have fought back that much since she would feel she had nothing to live for.
No! No! Nico felt terror. I'm sure he was flooded with cortisol. Plus, CW may have punched or kicked SW in the abdomen. If an unborn child can respond to Mozart's music or the voice of his parents, Nico would certainly be aware of his mother fighting for both of their lives.
[/QUOTE

And Nico would have felt oxygen depravation. He would have likely lived until he had absorbed all of the remaining oxygen from his mother, and then he would have started dying from lack of oxygen which was most likely a longer process than strangulation.
 
I don't know. There have been repeated lists of family annihilators who killed their kids because they wanted to be free. It's simple. No further explanation needed. No they overheard something or walked in on something and also had to be killed. Nothing. Just they wanted to be free from all family obligations.

These cases are stunning and confusing because by all accounts these were happy families from the outside and the murderers seemed to be great family men- good, loving dads.

But we've seen it over and over and over again.

"Seemed" is the key. Many had secret lives and all had hidden, defective characters.

He gets rid of his kids he doesn't have to worry about child support, child care, two girls missing their mommy, kids not getting along with the new mate or fling or whatever. He doesn't have to deal with former in laws who still want to see the kids. Or his own family who may want to be around more because of the existence of the kids.

No bedtimes. No naptimes. No potty training. School drop offs and pick ups. No daycare and pre school costs or babysitters costs. No tantrums. No sick kids in the middle of the night. No missing work (or play) due to sick kids. No shuffling around to dance classes or soccer. Girl Scouts or softball. No sports' fees. No school clothes. No parent teacher conferences. Back to school nights. Open house. No dental care costs. Medical care copays. No school fees. Or college costs.
No photos of dutiful dad carting them around on Halloween or taking them to boring 4th of July family barbecues.

He kills them and he's free. He would've been free. Free from drudgery. Responsibility. Expenses.
I think you're spot on. Here's what I have a really hard time understanding, though. If daddyhood/drudgery issues were so getting him down (and presumably they must have been for quite some time), then why on earth add to your pressures/unhappiness/precarious financial situation by trying for a third baby? More commitment, more cost, less sleep, etc. She was only 15 weeks pregnant. Surely his resentment of his domestic life had started long before that? I just don't understand what was going on in his head.
 
I think this is a very good question and I've pondered the same thing myself. There is not much available online about the subject of collateral intimate partner homicide (CIPH), unfortunately. I did read what I could find and it might explain some things about the Watts case. JMO.

The focal victim is the intimate partner or former intimate partner of the perpetrator. Collateral victims are connected to the focal victim and can be members of the focal victim's family, their friends, and their children. There are documented cases where the collateral victims were also the biological child or children of the perpetrator.

In CIPH, it appears that in a large percentage of the cases, there was a previous incident or incidents of domestic violence.

Upon reading this, I recalled seeing pictures SW posted on SM of Celeste with a huge bump and scrapes on her forehead. SW also took a picture of her own hand that was badly bruised. I'll try to find those pictures and post the link.

I'm not saying these injuries were the result of domestic violence, but in light of what has happened, I'm not ruling it out. JMO.
My issue is that there has been no evidence (police calls, accounts from friends, etc.) that there was ever any domestic violence, atleast until that night. This does strike me as odd, but that doesn’t mean that this wasn’t a horrific
one-off physical interaction.

Unless there is other evidence, photos of banged up kids doesn’t mean a lot to me. Kids injure themselves all the time, I still have the scars to prove it.
 
I think you're spot on. Here's what I have a really hard time understanding, though. If daddyhood/drudgery issues were so getting him down (and presumably they must have been for quite some time), then why on earth add to your pressures/unhappiness/precarious financial situation by trying for a third baby? More commitment, more cost, less sleep, etc. She was only 15 weeks pregnant. Surely his resentment of his domestic life had started long before that? I just don't understand what was going on in his head.
Is it a fact that they were “trying?”
 
Yes, according to Shanann and her friends. The baby was planned. In fact, SW said it was his idea. There's been some debate if that's true but she did say he suggested trying for a third. And if not, I mean, it takes two to tango. He could have said no...
Absolutely. And I do wonder if this pregnancy had something to do with the motive. If their financial troubles played a role, the prospect of another child may have factored in.
 
Can someone clarify a couple of thoughts I am having?

CW told police that he looked at the baby monitor screen and saw SW strangling their daughter Celeste and that he saw their older daughter, Bella, "sprawled" out on her bed and blue, according to the affidavit.
So if that was the true, how can CW explain that both girls were in Bella's bed being strangled when they each had their own bedrooms especially since I read somewhere on WS that both the little girls beds were either "made up" or "unmade" (need to also clarify which state the beds were in but can't find a link).
Also, if Bella was already dead in her bed and SW was in the midst of strangling Celeste in Bella's bed, how come CW couldn't prevent SW from completing that crime to Celeste? It is making the assumption that Celeste was already near death when CW saw the crimes on the baby monitor.
But didn't CW say he stepped away for only a moment to go downstairs?
How can both girls be dead in such a short amount of time ~ doesn't strangulation require more time to complete to result in death?

So basically CW was stating in affidavit that both girls were in Bella's bed at the time of their deaths.

Either the girls beds were unmade or they were made.

If the beds were unmade, then how did Celeste get to be in Bella's bed ~ assuming Celeste would have gone to bed in her own room based on the fact that her bed was unmade?

If the beds are not made up, then where did the girls go to sleep that night?

How could SW kill both girls in such a short amount of time for CW to go downstairs and come back up?

Doesn't make sense.

My recollection is the beds were unmade. Though I assume CW was not making up the beds daily when he watched the kids, he could have.
 
Absolutely. And I do wonder if this pregnancy had something to do with the motive. If their financial troubles played a role, the prospect of another child may have factored in.
It can't have helped matters. Which is why I am so baffled by it.
Here, I found the sources:

“Chris, we are so incredibly blessed to have you!” [Shanann] wrote on Facebook on Father’s Day. “You do so much everyday for us and take such great care of us. You are the reason I was brave enough to agree to number 3!” Huffington Post

Amanda Thayer (from the longer version of the Thayers' interview with 9News): "Shanann and I were going to get our nails done or something one day and she told me that Chris that night before told her that he wanted another child and she was all on board."
 
It can't have helped matters. Which is why I am so baffled by it.
Here, I found the sources:

“Chris, we are so incredibly blessed to have you!” [Shanann] wrote on Facebook on Father’s Day. “You do so much everyday for us and take such great care of us. You are the reason I was brave enough to agree to number 3!” Huffington Post

Amanda Thayer (from the longer version of the Thayers' interview with 9News): "Shanann and I were going to get our nails done or something one day and she told me that Chris that night before told her that he wanted another child and she was all on board."
Thanks. This just doesn’t make a ton of sense, atleast from a distance. This would be yet another financial burden, and he was all about it, despite that.
 
I think it’s possible that SW and CW got into a fight, and SW said something that absolutely infuriated him, and he lost it and strangled her. Then afterwards, realizing that he’d just committed murder, he came up with a plan to turn it on her to make it her fault. But People Mag said they have his phone, his texts, and his Internet searches, it was premeditated, so I’d rather believe that!
I have been thinking this too (about an argument leading to murder of SW) . But I disagree with the 2nd part (planned to pin the child murders on SW). Yes, it's easy to pin murder on someone who is already dead. But I don't believe he came up with that on his own. Everyone knew how much SW adored her babies. This was a sorry/failed attempt to get lesser charges and possibly make bail. JMO
 
I have been thinking this too (about an argument leading to murder of SW) . But I disagree with the 2nd part (planned to pin the child murders on SW). Yes, it's easy to pin murder on someone who is already dead. But I don't believe he came up with that on his own. Everyone knew how much SW adored her babies. This was a sorry/failed attempt to get lesser charges and possibly make bail. JMO
I’m inclined to agree with you. I do think that this idea to pin the crime on Shanann, came after the fact. Whether he came up with it, or someone else did, I’m not sure.
 
Some thoughts from the last thread. Life insurance for children is not uncommon. It can build to a huge sum when they're older. We don't know what kind. Many are annuities. Perhaps about a third of my clients with steady, middle class incomes have life insurance policies to their kids. Many jobs offer them.

@MyBelle asked about family killers hiding the bodies after the murders. Several family annihilators have hidden their families' bodies after murdering them.
Bradford Bishop
Christian Longo
David Anthony
Michael Blagg

Someone else mentioned the sentence for the tamper with bodies charges. Tampering with bodies charges carry a maximum of 12 years. They are unlikely to stack them on top of one another. They often are concurrent.

Colorado Felonies and Sentencing Guidelines

Finally, dixiegirl1035 asked:

Strategically, do you believe that there should be a second degree charge for his wife also as an option for the jury to choose from?

So many people talk about overcharging cases and the jury comes out and says they wish they had a lesser charge, and the only one that is lesser right now is about the bodies.

There is no lesser charge as far as the killing and the murder. Your thoughts?

Post #875 of thread 18.

Colorado has the option of including lesser includeds in the charges. But they didn't. I think they feel confident. And this was after the "confession" BTW.

However, it appears to me that per Colorado law, lesser includeds like second degree murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide are an inherent part of first degree murder charges and the jury will undoubtedly be instructed as such:

FindLaw's Supreme Court of Colorado case and opinions.

And if it's a capital murder (death penalty) case, the US Supreme Court has held that lesser includeds MUST be allowed per jury instructions:

Beck v. Alabama, 447 U.S. 625 (1980)

Yeah I'm always hearing about overcharging. Unless it's a state that doesn't have lesser includeds in a non-death penalty case, (are there any?) it sounds like b.s. In the casey anthony case the jury was instructed on various lesser includeds including second degree murder, manslaughter, even child neglect.

Nope. Nothing.

I don't think it's a matter of overcharging typically. I think it's a matter of juries doing what they want to do.
 
I think you're spot on. Here's what I have a really hard time understanding, though. If daddyhood/drudgery issues were so getting him down (and presumably they must have been for quite some time), then why on earth add to your pressures/unhappiness/precarious financial situation by trying for a third baby? More commitment, more cost, less sleep, etc. She was only 15 weeks pregnant. Surely his resentment of his domestic life had started long before that? I just don't understand what was going on in his head.

Well if you look at his old "lecture" on how to rescue a failing relationship, having a baby was on his list.

She was 15 weeks pregnant. I guess he changed his mind.
 
The camera across the street was the problem.
I agree the camera across the street was THE problem. It provided LE with absolute proof that CW was the only one who left the house that day.

In one of CW's media interviews, he was talking about his doorbell cam, and then he flung up his hand and arm and said something to the effect of "cameras over there". The way he did it was like cameras, cameras, cameras everywhere, dammit!

That was my impression, anyway.
 
Some thoughts from the last thread. Life insurance for children is not uncommon. It can build to a huge sum when they're older. We don't know what kind. Many are annuities. Perhaps about a third of my clients with steady, middle class incomes have life insurance policies to their kids. Many jobs offer them.

————————————————————————————

How could he collect on the children if the bodies are not found? I believe the life insurance could pay after the children would be declared “dead”. But isn’t that at least seven years?
 
The disorganization doesn't appear to come until AFTER NAU showed up at the house.

Signs of disorganization come into play in the very first act after the crime. No rational person plans to kill their entire family inside the home knowing the best plan they have is to dump the bodies hastily on a work property....in a work truck that presumably had GPS tracking....while carrying your cell phone....and leaving items behind that directly connect to your home.

If there had been any planning at all the dump site would've been somewhere on those desolate lands nearby and certainly not on a work-site of his employer.
 
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