CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #73

airportwoman

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Totally agree- CW blaming some one else for his murderous actions. I say BS--- normal decent humans just get a divorce!!! Sociopaths on the other hand sometimes do what CW did-- and believe they are going to get away with it.
Actually, decent humans break up with someone before they go out looking for someone else.
 

Jinkasaurus

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Interesting. What are your thoughts on why he killed Celeste & Bella?

I'm not as certain about why he killed them, as I am about what led him to kill SW. But here are a few thoughts.

If we believe the moving shadows in the neighbor's video and his story that he drove the girls out there while they were alive, to me that reflects some level of ambivalence about killing them.

As he drove out to the oil tanks, he had to be in an absolute panic, with adrenaline pumping through his body. He went into complete tunnel vision, and realized how ****ed he was. He had to cover the whole thing up entirely, which meant Celeste and Bella had to go too.

I think what it essentially came down to is he had no capacity to envision a future with them alive after SW was dead. Not only would he have to provide daily care for them while working full-time and wooing NK, but they'd also seen everything he did that night. There was no coming back from this night, and he knew it. Once he reached the point of no return by killing SW, his only option was scorched earth, family annihilator.
 

Berrybell

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I'm not as certain about why he killed them, as I am about what led him to kill SW. But here are a few thoughts.

If we believe the moving shadows in the neighbor's video and his story that he drove the girls out there while they were alive, to me that reflects some level of ambivalence about killing them.

As he drove out to the oil tanks, he had to be in an absolute panic, with adrenaline pumping through his body. He went into complete tunnel vision, and realized how ****ed he was. He had to cover the whole thing up entirely, which meant Celeste and Bella had to go too.

I think what it essentially came down to is he had no capacity to envision a future with them alive after SW was dead. Not only would he have to provide daily care for them while working full-time and wooing NK, but they'd also seen everything he did that night. There was no coming back from this night, and he knew it. Once he reached the point of no return by killing SW, his only option was scorched earth, family annihilator.
Thank you for your reply and insight. It is something to think about he felt cornered and had to be totally free of his life as a father and husband. Do you think he premeditated SW death as some have stated? I think he did have thoughts of killing her, maybe not a plan of actions but fantasized about her being gone. I have also thought about NK didn't know SW was pregnant and that it was a boy I read where she had told CW she wanted to give him his first son. Another thing I have wondered about is why he didn't bury the girls with SW or near her, why the oil tanks? Just so many unanswered questions. Again, thank you for reply insight.
 

Nikynoo

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Thank you for your reply and insight. It is something to think about he felt cornered and had to be totally free of his life as a father and husband. Do you think he premeditated SW death as some have stated? I think he did have thoughts of killing her, maybe not a plan of actions but fantasized about her being gone. I have also thought about NK didn't know SW was pregnant and that it was a boy I read where she had told CW she wanted to give him his first son. Another thing I have wondered about is why he didn't bury the girls with SW or near her, why the oil tanks? Just so many unanswered questions. Again, thank you for reply insight.
BBM - that's what bothers me too. It could be that he was so focused on burying SW, that the girls were a secondary thought - he didn't know what to do with them until that task was completed - then, he could focus on what to do with them.

I agree that he fantasized about SW being gone, but in his fantasy it was easier than real life. IMO, I don't think he planned out any of the murders. IMO, all of the murders were reactive to events as they unfolded.
 

NuttMegg

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There is so much to unpack in this article. My first reaction is disgust. Why would anyone want to write to CW, and meet him in prison to write a book about him?

CW whines about how Nichole was his "soulmate". Well, he could have just left his pregnant wife and children. He didn't need to kill them to be with his "soulmate".

Poor CW, in a special area of the prison, without AC, to keep him safe from the general population.

I often wish people had as much fascination with the victims, as they do with the perpetrators. CW isn't "special". No one should write a book about him. Or treat him like he is some sort of celebrity.
This article is just a click bait retread, the Cadle book was supposed to be an account of CW finding religion in prison and finding himself OK with god. I've watched all of Cadle's interviews long ago, and read both books, she said that at first she was in touch with Cindy Watts, the confessed baby-murderer's mother, and the mother poured out such a never ending stream of c rap against Shanann, that Cadle herself realized that something was very wrong that no one could be that evil as she portrayed Shanann. And this was way after CW confessed (2X) to killing all of them. adle says she changed the focus of the book to the truth she was uncovering with CW, he wrote her 12 letters of confession, 10 of them are printed in the book in his own handwriting.
 

NuttMegg

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This is reacting to a 3 year old news article.. From my reading of that ridicuolous attempt at a book it is only Cadle making the comment that it was 'just because of meeting NK'.. and perhaps the very reason why they no longer maintain contact, why there has been no other books written.
So much he wrote to her goes against the evidence, the facts of the case.. to create a 'good book'? To calm down the angry responses to his near genuine account of the events at Cervi that he told the agents in Feb 2019.

He ignored 3 letters from Cadle, gets angry that his detailed and disgustingly cold interview is released to the world, so suddenly decides to write to Cadle, help her write a book to help him share his story, his new interest in theology promised a mention.
In his very first letter he writes lies, things that contradict the autopsies, contradict what he said in Feb 19, things that scientifically make no sense at all.
So who did he tell the truth to.. the people he had no awareness were recording him, or in letters to a practical stranger telling her 'case changing' secrets the very first time he wrote to her.

Strikes me as payback on the cops, to the world.. to suggest Feb 19 isn't true, he could say anything he wanted and make people believe me if its just as a letter to someone who 'later' decides to write a book.
But that's not how it happened in my mind, she only ever wanted to write a book to blame him for cheating, for his immoral behaviour, he never discusses blaming his relationship with NK, never discusses the details of his marriage that the world is desperate to hear about, he leaks his new 'truths', and Cadles conclusion doesn't seem to fit the rest of her writing in anyway... it was just because of NK. end of her version of his story!

For those of us around for years, that it was as simple as NK cannot be accurate, he denies all the other aspects of his life that happened, denied any of the other issues typical in situations where men annihilate their families, he goes along with pretense of a happy marriage and a brief fling, the official media version.
He had the perfect wife, perfect house, children and job, but NK came along and changed it all.. ha ha ha
How about sharing the real truths, he'd have gained way more respect for that, to share why he no longer felt a connection with his wife, why he felt a need to bond with someone new.. that he fully intended to divorce.. that something huge prevented that. Those are the secrets he told Cadle he would keep to the grave imo.
Cadle didn't write the letters, he did in his own hand, and little of it goes against the evidence in the case, ie his earlier confessions, not including the first one which was clearly instigated by TL, he said as much. The letters only add to the 5 hour confession to LE on Feb 18 2019.
The item that he said he would "take to his grave" was who gave him the OXY that he used to attempt murder on the fetus on July 31 2018 which just made Shanann very ill. I don't believe I heard any of your last sentence being used by CW as anything he would take to his grave. Maybe he said that, but I've heard and read it all, and I don't remember that. It was who gave him the OXY. Who would he protect to his grave? Certainly, IMO. not the mother or the mistress. Someone who had access, IMO, and someone who urged him to write the letter saying that if something happened to the girls it would be SW's fault. Putting into his head the idea that something happening to the girls was not unthinkable. IMO
After I pored thru his 5 hour confession of feb 2019, the 2 cadle books, all his handwritten letters, the interviews with his family after he confessed, and everything that has been leaked by or about about him from prison, IMO the only reason some of his confessions have colliding details is because he will do anything to keep a secret about the extent of what he did to the girls that morning. To get them to fit in the holes after he killed them. IMO
 

NuttMegg

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Have said this a few times over the years on social media.. the fact that he was in a place to be tempted by another woman is so significant imo.
The timing of the trip was the only way he got away with creating a relationship and ultimately he tells SW he intends to divorce her that Weds, i think the talk of counselling and trip to Aspen signs of his not being able to stand up for himself with her... a sense of pretence because she was pregnant, he felt some need to be 'around' during that time for her. 'Until he figured out his own apartment etc, with his new shift etc.

I haven't read this book but i do so wish he'd have spoken up about the financial issues as a factor, not loving someone is cause enough to divorce.. but what if he discovered the extent of the new debts that weekend, discovered there would be no repeat bankruptcy, that the plans he created during the summer were impossible without some money, and when he discovered that SW was earning not even close to the same as he'd been led to believe. Addy wrote that SW would have made 'next to nothing' up until Jan 2018, but would be beginning to make money now she had reached the 80k level. There is a huge reason most of those involved used Thrive as a secondary job, because the money was not there.. admittedly SW worked hard at the start, but her team wasn't growing, she was doing the work for hers and CW account.

It seemed to me something changed that weekend.. pressure from NK shouldn't have been enough to incite murder, I believe he'd developed some deep hatred for his wife over the issues ongoing in their marriage. His admission to fantasizing about killing her a major sign that there was something major, not just a typical divorce scenario. Maybe with the prompt to lock the office when the babysitter was there gave him a reason to investigate the recent bills, recent bank statements for example. He created a plan for a new life coparenting and then discovered SW would not be able to support herself with the income she actually had vs the claimed income. Add that to pressure from her about the $60 dinner charge saturday.

UNless he mans up someday and shares the realities of their lives together i guess we can only speculate.. the people around them are sharing what they'd been told, what the SW FB world portrayed. The world we all now realise wasn't as rosy as it was portrayed. But nothing anywhere near to his doing what he did.. doesn't matter what went on their lives, nothing should have led to ending her life the way he did. Am more than happy he sit to rot in prison for eternity.
There is no proof he told Shanann "that Wednesday" that he wanted to divorce her. Where are you getting that? Neither CW nor SW,nor NA, nor any friends said that in discovery. Please link!!

I'm sorry, I don't understand where you are getting your data, how do you know he didn't know the extent of the "new debts"? And what were the new debts? While Shanann was in Arizona working, he spent at least $115 on the mistress on Saturday night, with all the food, the babysitter, using SW's car for her to pay the gas, putting miles on her car, etc. Watts never accounted for the 10K he took from his 401K, there was no way anyone could have accessed that account but Watts, that's just the rules for retirement accounts.

Watts was the holder of the mortgage on the house, are you saying that he didn't know he wasn't paying his own bills? How could that be blamed on his wife?

Where is your proof of what income Shanann was or was not making? Where is your proof that her "team was not growing"? Watts said she often made as much as he did. Could you steer us to where you learned that? It's not in discovery or her texts, videos, or his confessions, the book, etc. Where was that disclosed?

Watts had complete access to the bank accounts, for instance when he used the ATM to get money for the babysitter he used for the night with the mistress, he could have checked the balance, same with any other accounts. Watts' GPS showed that it was he who stopped at the community mail boxes several times a week to get the mail, why would he become suspicious about bills when he himself picked up the mail? Did he never open mail addressed to him? So you''re saying that Saturday night the 11th of August 2018 he discovered that it was all Shanann's fault that they were in debt, and he suddenly discovered that she was lying about her income? Is that what you are saying? Where would be your proof of that? How could it make sense that he suddenly realized they were in debt that Saturday night because the babysitter closed the office door....he had the house completely to himself for 5 weeks to look at the desk and all the mail at his leisure.

Please link to CW having "created a plan for a new life coparenting". That has not appeared in any document in the case, not discovery, not confessions, not the book, not the confessions with LE, not with correspondence with friends. Are you referring to Anadarko's plan to put workers on 7 on, and 7 off schedule?

I don't understand your post blaming finances on Shanann. Please elaborate as to why they were both not to blame for finances. Thanks. IMO.
 
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NuttMegg

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I too do not think anything justified CW killing SW and their little girls, but I do think you are right that as he begin to think of a new life he realized their debt was out-of-control. SW had enrolled the girls into an expensive pre-school so she could work during the day at a job that was not paying a full-time salary and a new baby on the way. I agree something happened, more than just an argument CW had already told his parents he was leaving her. It may be as simple as he wanted a new life, new wife and murdered them so he would have a clean slate.
Could you link to Shanann's income, and that Watts was not part of the decision to let the girls attend preschool? They had been attending previously on a part time basis, and the following year one of them, Bella, would be eligible for public school.
Mainly please link to your statement of her income. Thank you.

And please link to his realizing his debt was out of control just as he began to think of a new life?
 

NuttMegg

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I don't think the financial played much of a role. I've always thought that the simmering rage that the lust with NK brought to a boil was due to CW's deep-seated, life-long passive and conflict-avoidant nature, which allowed a strong, naturally assertive person like SW to steam roll him completely. Neither of them was aware of this toxic dynamic which was a cancer to their relationship.

The passive man who does not have it in him to assert his own wants and needs becomes dejected, then resentful, then angry, then rageful. Each instance where he doesn't speak up and lets her needs/wants take precedence, he gives up a little bit of himself. Its not healthy.

Where does this originate? First I believe CW was born with a quiet/introvert/passive temperament. There is lots of research on how temperament is what people come into the world with. He gets this from his dad. I would guess there are others on the Watts side that have this same personality style. Introverted/anxious/good with his hands/fixing things/not so good with other people's emotions, or his own. A man like this usually pairs up with an extroverted woman.

Then CW has his mother Cindy who does not have the capacity to connect properly with her son or appreciate his nature and create an environment for him to flourish. CW goes through life being steam-rolled by his mom, while his dad sits by and lets it happen, because he has the same nature as his son, and the first woman that responds to CW's interest, he attaches himself to. SW probably felt very familiar to him, and in the beginning, it was fine to take the back seat and let SW run the show.

Its not SW's fault that she was running the show necessarily, because I believe CW never spoke up about his needs. I think SW thought everything was fine. At the very end, in her texts, you see that she was open to counseling and changing. I think SW would have been willing to change had she known the depth of her husband's feelings of a lack of agency in their relationship. I think CW ended up creating this false life for them where he went along with everything, but the resentment slowly built year after year.

Then he gets on Thrive, loses weight, has a lot of energy, gets in shape/builds muscle, which increases testosterone, and CW is feeling confident and probably has a stronger sex drive than when was overweight, out of shape, and no vitamins and other stuff being pumped through him all day. NK comes along, pursues him, and he spirals out of control.
We all know how a woman can treat a man if she wants to - fawn over him, make him feel like the #1 guy in the world, be interested in everything he likes, etc. I think NK and CW did have some natural common interests, but I also think she was amping it up due to lust. Also, NK feels very familiar, subconsciously, to CW - she is yet another confident woman and his passive nature provides a great complement to that.

CW had literally NO ability to voice his feelings and needs and assert them. It was not possible in his childhood due to both nature and nurture, and he unconsciously chose someone who helped him stay in that role as an adult. By the time he had spent six weeks with NK, in fantasy affair land, where there is only lust and the idea of a perfect future, he was quickly reaching the moment it was all going to fall apart, in a spectacular way - the baby coming, SW is back home, NK has been pressuring him, his desire for NK is at an all-time high, and his deeply passive nature at the root of it all.

I almost believe him when he said there was a force that came over him when he killed SW. I think that force was the deeply buried part of him that had wants and needs, and had reached a point of rage. Strangling SW is symbolic in that he closed her throat and prevented her from speaking or breathing. That is the thing he had wanted to do all those years and never could do. Not because of SW, but because of his own nature. In that moment, the repressed aspects of CW burst out in rage and he shut her up for the final time.
Sorry to keep asking you for proof of your assertions, but could you please prove that SW "completely steamrolled" CW and that the decisions made in their marriage were not jointly made? IIRC they were together 2 years before marrying, hardly making a case for her steamrolling him. Both of them agree that she initially rejected him, and he had to win her over. (CW interviews with LE, SW's texts and videos in discovery). I think it would be more accurate to say he steamrolled her.

Do you think that this rage that she caused in him, according to you, also made him want to smother a 3 year old in diapers and a 4 year old who thought he was her hero? And stuff their bodies into 8" holes in a 20' tall oil tank so they could slowly sink into the greasy black abyss and ingest oil, in Bella's situation? And murder the baby he had talked his wife into having (discovery texts, and his own feb 2019 confession to LE). With Bella, he caused bruises above her eyes, scraped the skin on her thighs, caused her to bite her tongue multiple times, and made her tear her frenulum, cutting a hole in her gum (according to Det. Tammy Lee) as she thrashed back and forth as his killed her. In his confession of feb 18 2019 with LE, he said that she didn't really say anything as he killed her, just that she just "grunted here and there". That tape is available from the Denver new stations on the internet, plus about 25 other authorized restreams available.
What do you think about his torturing Bella by making her observe him kill her little sister, and then brush aside her pleas for life as he came for her next? (Feb 2019 detailed confession). How could all of the gruesome njuries and death he enacted on his own flesh and blood, little kids, be the result of the rage Shanann caused in him? That sounds like blaming her for all the deaths.
 
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NuttMegg

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Thank you for your reply and insight. It is something to think about he felt cornered and had to be totally free of his life as a father and husband. Do you think he premeditated SW death as some have stated? I think he did have thoughts of killing her, maybe not a plan of actions but fantasized about her being gone. I have also thought about NK didn't know SW was pregnant and that it was a boy I read where she had told CW she wanted to give him his first son. Another thing I have wondered about is why he didn't bury the girls with SW or near her, why the oil tanks? Just so many unanswered questions. Again, thank you for reply insight.
He said in one of his letters, in his own handwriting that he did premeditate killing all of them, and his actions began with trying to murder Nico, although at that time he did not know the gender. He said that the girls were shying away from him in NC because they could sense his evil intent and they were instinctively afraid of him. In his confession of Feb 2019 to LE he said it was absolutely not true what had been passed around about putting the girls in the oil tanks to separate them from their mother. A lot of your unanswered questions really ARE answered in the confessions and the handwritten letters and in discovery. He said that his anger with Shannan was partly because Bella woke up again after his first attempt to kill her, (Cadle book #2, his handwriting) He said he was so angry with Bella. He told LE that he was so angry that morning he would have killed anyone who came along. (feb 2019 confession to LE) So, yes Chris Watts confessed in his letters that he HAD premeditated his wife's death, and that he HAD premeditated the children's deaths too, there was no uncertainty or driving around with them because he was some good soul who was trying to save the kids. After he left the oil tanks, all he could think of was whether or not he had left the dog inside or not. (The Murders of Christpher Watts, in his own handwriting). Why the oil tanks? Because he had hoped that the kids would be eaten by the toxic oil before the time the tanks were commissioned to be drained, IMO. He also wrotethat one reason he stuffed them in the tanks was so that they would not wake up yet again. IIRC Cadle did turn over all his letters to the FBI. IMO
No matter how "nice" people try to make Watts out to be, or that as above, it was rage at Shanann for her steamrolling him, ie her fault for her own death, he ain't getting out. If he filed a 35C to implicate someone else, the autopsy photos would be revealed, along with the horrific photos from the tanks at haz mat retrieval when the girls'' skin fell off and they had to go back in to get parts of it, parts where their tiny fingernails were still attached to the arm skin which had separated from their bodies, and the rest would come out about what he did to those babies. I almost wish he would have a trial so I could see jury's faces as the extent of what he did to his own babies sinks in. IMO
 
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NuttMegg

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I'm not as certain about why he killed them, as I am about what led him to kill SW. But here are a few thoughts.

If we believe the moving shadows in the neighbor's video and his story that he drove the girls out there while they were alive, to me that reflects some level of ambivalence about killing them.

As he drove out to the oil tanks, he had to be in an absolute panic, with adrenaline pumping through his body. He went into complete tunnel vision, and realized how ****ed he was. He had to cover the whole thing up entirely, which meant Celeste and Bella had to go too.

I think what it essentially came down to is he had no capacity to envision a future with them alive after SW was dead. Not only would he have to provide daily care for them while working full-time and wooing NK, but they'd also seen everything he did that night. There was no coming back from this night, and he knew it. Once he reached the point of no return by killing SW, his only option was scorched earth, family annihilator.
But that's not what he said in his confessions. He said he had NO ambivalence, rather that it was preplanned. Over and over he claimed premeditation. He detailed the premeditation, the attempt to kill the girls twice, his anger at Bella for waking up, and the desecration of the corpses, still warm as he stuffed them into the tank, Bella aside from being dead, horribly disfigured. He even detailed in his own handwriting how Cece barely woke up from the first attempt to kill her, that she was going "in and out" is the way he put it. Furthermore he confessed even to attempted murder on Nico TWO times with OXY. Starting on July 31.

And your theory is not what the evidence shows. He actually drove straight to the site, at a normal rate of speed, not in a panic, his GPS shows that, and he acted normally with his co workers as his daughter Cece sunk in the tank, and Bella, who had already hit bottom in the shallow tank was having oil shoved into her stomach. He said he was NOT in a panic, he said he was ANGRY, because bella woke up, and his anger towards the women he killed. The only thing his coworker said about his behavior being off is that he claimed to be "hot", when it was only 8 am. Hurried grave digging does produce body heat. And several co workers mentioned how he was dressed in old clothes, which definitely shows pre-planning. He was not wearing what he normally wore to work, he dressed in old clothes, with motivation and pre-planning, before he left the house. Anthony Brown mentioned that Watts was always trying to sell thrive to him, and offered one of his kids to Brown.

You can create any scenario you want to, excusing him, finding himself in a point of no return, your understanding why he killed SW (I can't believe you even said that on a victim friendly site), what else could he do, etc, adrenalin, etc. but your theory does not match up with the known facts of the case.
 
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Jinkasaurus

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Those are just my thoughts and impressions, and that is all they should be taken as. I'm not that attached to them and don't pretend to know the absolute truth of what happened. Only CW knows that, but how reliable of a narrator he is about his own life is up for debate. Some people are capable of great delusion about themselves. If my comments inspire others to share theirs, then I consider that a good thing.
 

Berrybell

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Those are just my thoughts and impressions, and that is all they should be taken as. I'm not that attached to them and don't pretend to know the absolute truth of what happened. Only CW knows that, but how reliable of a narrator he is about his own life is up for debate. Some people are capable of great delusion about themselves. If my comments inspire others to share theirs, then I consider that a good thing.
Thank you for sharing your opinions and what I considered very good impressions of the family dynamic, personalities and situations. I did not feel anything you stated was an attack on anyone, rumors or made excuses for CW. There is no excuse for what he did, however, stating observations of and giving one's opinions is not victim bashing.
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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This is both my first and last comment to this case as I’m totally late to this case but, I just wanted to say that there were MANY tells in CW’ first interview..like whoa!!

*Edit to add: Not just with his words but also with his body language and mannerisms. This is what I picked up on first, starting around minute 1:56.
ymmv m()()
 

NuttMegg

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This is both my first and last comment to this case as I’m totally late to this case but, I just wanted to say that there were MANY tells in CW’ first interview..like whoa!!

*Edit to add: Not just with his words but also with his body language and mannerisms. This is what I picked up on first, starting around minute 1:56.
ymmv m()()
If you have time and the inclination, there are a dozen or more analyses of Watts' actions, interesting what stands out to professionals who analyze words and non-verbal gives.

IMO
 
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