Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. tovarisch

    tovarisch New Member

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    JB had unexplained bruises on her right shoulder. It could have been from the boot`s pressure , or could have been from other object like you suggest from the door edge`s pressure. Anyway, your idea is fresh and that`s what we are lacking, good argument that opens minds for the fresh ideas.
     


  2. Tawny

    Tawny Bye

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    Hi tovarisch, I'm unfamiliar with the bruises you mention. Do you have a link you can post so I can brush up on that? :)
     
  3. tovarisch

    tovarisch New Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6OV2zCiSuw

    There is a photo of JB`s back app. at 1:45---1:50 min in this video. Also I saw this photo many times from other sources. My laptop is old and copying is a problem, I tried to post a link, let me know if you were able to see the bruises.
     
  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, this makes sense. JB had a large bruise on the back of her shoulder that could be an indication that someone pressed or knelt there when winding and/or pulling the cord. The photo is hard to find- it doesn't appear on the usual sites that show the few photos that were released to the public by the Globe.
     
  5. Tawny

    Tawny Bye

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    This would explain why there are theorists who believe she was suspended somehow. If someone knelt on her back to tighten the cord, the ligature marks would resemble those made if she were suspended. Close, but not exactly of course, which is why so many people also say she was not suspended.
     
  6. tovarisch

    tovarisch New Member

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    Tawny, as always you miss understanding. Whatever I say. I said something different than suspending . I said JB`s right shoulder had bruises. One shoulder . One shoulder Tawny. Do you have an idea how suspend with one shoulder? To me it looks like high tech boot impression on the human body.
     
  7. Tawny

    Tawny Bye

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    "As always". That is extremely rude, IMHO. I understood perfectly. Apparently you misunderstood me.

    I said there are theorists who say she was suspended because of how the ligature marks look, however, autopsy and other evidence shows this is not the case, she was not suspended, the cord wouldn't have held, etc. However, If someone is tugging her from behind, the ligature marks would look like she was suspended.
     
  8. tovarisch

    tovarisch New Member

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    If you feel I was rude, I apologize. You never understand My posts, as always misunderstandings are going on between YOUrs and MY posts, perhaps due to my not perfect language and your high English,I do not know. I have problem communicating with you, and I do not have with others, blame it on me. You have re-posted, thank you, and again I do not understand-- we were talking about bruises, not ligature marks. Forget it. Have a nice evening.
     
  9. questfortrue

    questfortrue Active Member

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    Is this the bruise/contusion referenced? From the autopsy: “On the posterior aspect of the right shoulder is a poorly demarcated, very superficial focus of
    abrasion/contusion which is pale purple in color and measures up to three-quarters by one-half inch in maximum dimension.” Could it have been an elbow?

    I have sometimes missed either the intent or the context of a post and have responded to what I’ve understood. And English is my native language! Anyone communicating in a second language as well as you do is respected, especially as you clearly bring the passion to work out the details of this crime.

    If anyone is interested DeDee last year kindly bumped a number of posts of otg who analyzed the knots and ligature/garotte. Here’s a bump of a bump.  Starting with Post 555 http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Strangulation-Devices&p=10384545#post1038454 It's a very detailed analysis, though not light reading :)
     
  10. anne11

    anne11 Member

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    I was watching a tv programme on a UK serial killer who killed people with a ligature described as a windlass, the knot has some similarities to that used on jb mainly the looping over the paint brush handle.
     
  11. Jilly1059

    Jilly1059 New Member

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    One possibility for the paintbrush is the need to have something to pull that cord with because it was cutting into your hand and/or too slippery to get a good grip on. Being a female I don't have a lot of strength in my hands when it comes to lifting...with nylon cords. I'm thinking about how quickly I have to put down a package tied with twine or something similar because it's cutting into my hand. And my tissues haven't been compromised by chemotherapy
     
  12. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Jilly, welcome to WS. Please don’t let me or anyone else intimidate you or discourage you from posting your thoughts. Oftentimes new posters with new ideas contribute greatly to the discussion and help us all “refine” our theories or consider things we hadn’t in the past. But along that same line, if we offer to you our opinions, don’t take it as disagreement -- and by all means, don’t let it stifle the discussion.

    It would be surprising (IMO) for a piece of wood like the paintbrush handle to break in two places while under pressure. I think usually it would break only in one place while pressure is being applied. I believe the two breaks in the paintbrush were both deliberate.

    In your proposed theory, why would you suppose the end piece of the paintbrush is missing? Why not put it in the paint tray along with the brush end?


    Exactly. The device found on JonBenet’s neck did not function efficiently as it was found. That is why we have to consider how she might have been strangled with the cord being used in some other way (IMOO, of course).
     
  13. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    The autopsy photo of the abrasion/contusion on JonBenet’s right shoulder was not part of the photos leaked by The Globe. NBC showed a censored photo in a news program which obscured all but the injury. It’s difficult to make out the orientation of the injury in a screen capture of that photo, but here is what was shown on TV by NBC:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3903&stc=1&d=1256063389

    This is the injury described by Dr. Meyer in the passage quoted by questfortrue above in Post #589. Because some here (I’m sure) would rather not have to look at the more graphic version of this autopsy photo, I won’t post it here for public viewing. I posted a link to it once before with an explanation and with her face obscured in the following post:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?148357-PDI-and-The-Abuse&p=10491279#post10491279

    For those who feel they really need to see it uncensored (and since it isn’t widely reproduced), I’ll post the original in my photos folder here at WS so only logged in members can view it. (I saw that someone had posted this uncensored photo here not long ago, but I won’t do it.)

    It’s difficult to make out in this photo the direction of the abrasion. But if we knew, that might help figure out how it could have happened. I don’t think it is from a shoe, but rather from either her shoulder being dragged across some surface -- or the surface of something being dragged across her shoulder. I do think it was a fresh scrape, and I wonder if there was a corresponding blood spot inside the shirt she was wearing when found -- or maybe even the Barbie nightgown found with her that we know did have her blood on it. Perhaps this is where that blood came from instead of (as people have speculated) on the outside of the nightgown.

    I believe this scrape might have happened in the instant she collapsed from the head blow. In my theory, the cord was tied loosely around her neck and affixed to something in the area outside the WC (possibly the doorknob). When she was struck over the head, she collapsed, the cord tightened, and her shoulder might have scraped against the wall as her body bumped against it and fell.

    This is similar to the circumstances of Robin Williams’ suspension, except of course that his was intentional. He was suspended close to the wall at a closet doorway. When found, his right shoulder had rubbed against the wall raising his shirt sleeve up on his shoulder as the weight of his body slid down. If we knew the direction of the abraded area on JonBenet’s shoulder, it might tell us something about how it occurred.
     
  14. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    Welcome Jilly1059!
    :)

    Handles are always nice. They aren’t always necessary, but they’re nice. A convenience, of sorts.

    In this case the handle has become a matter of debate for what I believe are the wrong reasons. The question shouldn’t be “why use a handle,” but, “why break the paintbrush (and why put one piece back in the paint tote)?”

    In a post (592) above OTG writes, “The device found on JonBenet’s neck did not function efficiently as it was found.”

    As far as I can tell this is poster’s opinion only. I don’t think you‘re going to find any of the experts or investigators saying such a thing. This is the sort of claim that drives me a little batty because it seem to be completely made up. I’ve experimented with slip knot ligatures (of various kind) possibly hundreds – yes, hundreds – of times over the years and I think that the one used on this victim should have been EXTREMELY efficient (as long as the goal was to asphyxiate to death). EXTREMELY.

    It should have worked almost exactly like this: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr

    You can see something similar in the PMPT movie (@ 7:42): http://tinyurl.com/m9kqz2l

    I say that this device would have bene EXTREMELY efficient because all one has to do is give one, quick, hard pull and the job is done. The ligature tightens and it remains tight (it was still tight when the body was discovered, and still tight when it was removed at autopsy.
    ...

    AK
     
  15. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    IMO the garrote was used to avoid leaving the hand marks that would have resulted in a manual strangulation. Would someone from a foreign faction be concerned about such things? Maybe. Would the Ramsey's be concerned? Certainly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. Jilly1059

    Jilly1059 New Member

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    I agree that the cord was very efficient! I don't think it was staged at all, the person intended to strangle her. Avoiding hand prints is a good explanation for why and i believe the cord and paintbrush were tools of convenience. I can also see how the cheaply made paintbrush handle could snap off at both ends while being held together in the middle by the cord if you pulled with both hands. I think the answer to why the end of it went missing has already been explained. It had been used as the assault tool.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. elannia

    elannia Active Member

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    Hey otg, im confused about the photo link, I have seen the more graphic one you mentioned, which shows her whole face to the side and the place on her shoulder, but im confused about the one you mentioned being on NBC. Is she on her back (face looking to the right, call me crazy lol, but I cannot tell) but it looks like there is another "abrasion" on her neck, like on her face. And also on her chin as well. Im just confused about what im supposed to be looking for
     
  18. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Is the device used actually a garrotte? My understanding is that a garrotte is actually a piece of cord between two sticks and used in the following fashion...

    garrote.jpg

    From what I can tell, the device used on JB seems to be more of a noose with a single stick for gripping purposes.
     
  19. Jilly1059

    Jilly1059 New Member

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    I agree, it was mis-identified as a garrote from the beginning and the name stuck. It's a slip knot with a handle for pulling.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Thats what I figured. So likely there would be some bruising, as with that type of device you would need to hold her body down while pulling up on the cord for a significant period of time (I believe Paul Bernardo put the number at 8 minutes). Where there bruises on her back or shoulders?
     

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