Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. anne11

    anne11 Member

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    I have been thinking that the cord used for the ligature shoud have skin cells from the perp caught in the weave, maybe the echonolgy to retrive the DNA was not available at the time but I was listening to Tricia's True Crime radio from the 16th April and Dawna Kaufmann mentionned that the lab Cybergenetics offered to re-test the evidence in the JBR case using state of the art technology but as yet the BPD have not submitted the evidence to them.
     


  2. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    According to Kolar, unsourced, and non-matching male DNA was discovered on the wrist ligature and on the garrote.
    ...

    AK
     
  3. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Does that DNA match what was in the panties?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    I think if you look at the other evidence in this case it's a logical assumption that the Ramsey's likely wore gloves. The ransom note for example was obviously picked up and handled by one or both of them, yet there are no prints on it. The Officers who had handled it have their prints on it, why not the Ramsey's? This can't be put down to IDI because they handled the note as victims. IMO the note was placed on the floor with gloves on and never touched again. Possibly the practice note was started without gloves and discarded for that reason.


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  5. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    If we are to believe Kolar the DNA on the wrist ligature and the DNA on the garrote and the DNA on the panties/leggings all came from separate individuals.
    ...

    AK
     
  6. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

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    There weren’t prints on a lot of things. This is not necessarily indicative of items only being handled by someone wearing gloves. For example, two fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl – one Mrs Ramsey’s and one Burke’s. Did they wear four fingered gloves while handling the bowl? Probably not. Did they handle the bowl with only one finger each, balancing it between them as they moved it from point A to point B? Probably not.
    .

    An important fact to consider:
    “When a report reads "no prints,"… … means no prints of evidentiary value were preserved. It does not mean that the item was wiped down, or that no one had ever touched or handled it... …The term "no prints" does not mean that there were no marks or smears - it means that if any markings were present, they lacked sufficient detail to be of evidentiary value.” ("Fingerprints: What They Can & Cannot Do!," The Print, Volume 10, number 7, June 1994, pp. 1-3.)
    ...

    AK
     
  7. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    Extra links inserted by me. Bumping entire excellent sequence for newbies.

    Scroll and Roll.
    *Sensitive Content Warning*

    I think this would work. I know you are referring to the culprit being BR but I'm not. Her little hands were dirty but didn't her fingernails have her own DNA and tiny marks on her neck where she tried to pry the rope away from choking her?

    So we have JB hanging in death due to asphyxiation from the bang on the head forcing JB to collapse forward. JB has to be cut down, causing the rope ends to fray, from the accidental hanging that started when JB screamed b/c that is why she was hit ferociously upon the head. In your synopsis, the two causes of death occur simultaneously. However, JK has told us that she could have lived up to an hour after the fatal head blow before being fatally strangled.

    If the first ligature left the white blanching around the front of her neck, couldn't a fresh cord be used for the final assault? Therefore, there was actually a double strangulation with the first one, as you state, by accident, and the second one as staging for the Police to find.

    The furrow in JBs neck is mighty deep for it to be a cover up and not the Real McCoy.

    Lord, forgive me, for these thoughts are just awful. Poor JB.
     
  8. Sunshine4Me

    Sunshine4Me New Member

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    This is interesting, but weren't urine stains found outside the wine cellar where it's believed she died? Or do you think she was hung outside the wine cellar and moved afterwards?

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  9. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    sorry for snip otg

    But there would only be a second or so between the two injuries, so they effectively occurred simultaneously. This is the reason the autopsy findings are so inconclusive on the exact cause of death -- both injuries were killing her at the same time.


    which re/ inforces the idea that neither is cover/up but both are parts of the crime IMO
     
  10. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    The DNA under her fingernails was too degraded to eliminate her as the donor. I have never seen a photo where fingernail gouges can be seen on JonBenet's neck. I know some have speculated about this, but until I see something on JonBenet's neck showing what I've seen in other autopsy photos that really were fingernail gouges, I'm not convinced. Additionally, the simple fact that the DNA under her fingernails was too degraded for better testing contradicts the likelihood of her having done so.

    If you care to read more, I've been through this before:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...!-*READ-FIRST-POST*-2&p=11110524#post11110524


    Yeah, I know what Kolar said about that, but I have reasons to doubt that that length of time is correct.


    The two marks on her neck is not uncommon in hangings (even "partial"). It's actually one of the reasons I first suspected that that is what happened.

    From Pathology of Neck Injury, by Peter Vanezis:
    "It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."
    (Does this not describe exactly what is seen on JonBenet’s neck? This accounts for the “areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches” mentioned in the AR which lies between the two ligature marks.)

    Here's another quote from this online source:
    There is a tendency for the ligature to move upwards, this being limited by the jaws. The upward movement may produce double impression of ligature. The lower mark is usually very superficial and is connected by fine abrasions, caused by the slipping ligature, to the mark made by ligature in its final position.


    The depth and appearance of the furrow is a result of the length of time it was left around her neck. The lower white line (below her laryngeal prominence) didn't have the cord in place long enough to develop a furrow.
     
  11. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I believe that the urine has been confirmed.


    I think it all happened right there just outside the WC. I think her body was moved to the inside the WC by John.
     
  12. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    Intent

    "If it can be demonstrated that the ligature was drawn relatively tight in a short period of time, this might tend to be more directly supportive of [intentional homicide:.


    "A good question to ask about the ligature itself is whether it is something that could be accomplished with little thought, or is it the type of ligature that would take practice to do well. Over time, this assailant will not change certain features of his assault on his victims. Complex ligature, which is practiced and learned, is one of the areas to look for this repetition."

    " .... DiMaio et al[4] adds:

    "The appearance of a ligature mark on the neck is subject to considerable variation, depending upon the nature of the ligature, the amount of resistance offered by the victim, and the amount of force used by the assailant. The ligature mark may be faint, barely visible, or absent in young children .... If a thin ligature is used, there will be a very prominent deep mark encircling the neck. Initially, it has a yell parchment-like appearance that turns dark brown."

    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

    Just trying to figure out why JB would be standing on her feet with a noose around her neck in the basement that she hated on Christmas Night. Then, once she is whacked hard on her head crushing in her skull, she collapsed on the noose. Hence, the killer took the garrote and pulled it with some force for some time until she no longer lived. Intentional homicide. What made JB scream? The paintbrush tickle? The force that made her bleed?

    Can the scream heard by the female neighbor, who later retracted her own statement, be factual for TOD purposes? For some reason, I feel JB was killed earlier in the evening than we've been led to believe. All of that story about dropping off gifts after the party and what knot is a bunch of phooey trash. Those friends found out the next day not be caught telling a stray dog or else....

    The Stines were not called for JBs emergency kidnapping that morning, though were they attended the Rs party on the 23rd when something went terribly wrong. Ms Stine answered the PoPo who knocked on their door for the 911 wellness check. The mysterious 911 call was made. Santa came and promised JB he'd come visit again after Christmas or else some other person promised her that Santa would. JB said she didn't feel pretty.

    Were both JAR and PaPaw Paugh in attendance at the Rs party on the 23rd? Yes or no? TIA PaPaw Paugh caught a stand by flight into AZ where Nedra was on Christmas Eve, iirc.

    Maybe JB was about to reveal a big secret and had to be silenced. Something bad happened on the 25th to cause JB to end up dead from it. It was planned but went too far, said Patsy. It is common for the victim to be hit on the head in order to cooperate with sex abuse. JB was hit too hard. That was not enough. Part of the sex abuse was the garrote. Intentional homicide to cover for the real reason why she was hit on the head. JR and PR looked on in horror at what just happened to their baby girl. Child abuse that led to her death just like its stated in the True Bills.
     
  13. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    About the cord, hence, this fiber report.

    http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ramsey.htm

    (A) Prosecutors in Boulder, Colo., presented to the grand jury shocking evidence that they feel shows the rope used to strangle JonBenét was purchased by her mom Patsy. A sales slip indicates that Patsy bought a thin nylon rope at Boulder's McGuckin hardware store. Patsy paid for this rope with an American Express card. The sales slip doesn't name the items, but it shows a $2.29 purchase rung up in the section of the store that sold nylon ropes. The price of a nylon rope at the time -- $2.29. Realizing they were on to something explosive, authorities bought up all the 100-foot packs of quarter inch Stansport nylon utility rope sold at McGuckin's. They compared the McGuckin ropes with the one used on JonBenét and it matched. Tests run by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation convinced the police they had the right rope. This was vital evidence since investigators never found the remainder of the murder rope in the Ramsey home.

    From another thread:
    [Respectfully snipped the portion that offered a suggestion about the American Girl Doll having brown fibers.]

    The fact remains that these brown fibers, among others, from her body, stuck to the duct tape and in the ligature were never conclusively sourced unless we discover it in the upcoming dox. The killer touched or possessed something belonging to these three items at some point.


    Fibers from the contents held within the blue suitcase were found all over JonBenet's CS. This is important to remember/know.


    Fibers from Sham & Duvet
    Where Found. A sham and duvet were found in the suitcase beneath the train room window.

    Fibers on JBR
    "A CBI examiner issued a report indicating fibers from the pillow sham and comforter were found on JonBenet's shirt, on her vaginal area, on the duct tape, on the hand ligature and inside the body bag." (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence

    That's a fair amount of duvet fibers at five different places at the CS from the comforter/duvet and sham that was found stuffed inside the JARs blue suitcase.

    JonBenet must have been on that duvet/comforter the night of her death. Why? Why was she on that comforter? Whose was it? Did it really belong to JAR? Surely he's thankful to possess an airtight alibi or he'd been arrested, one would think.

    ST does not have PR using the duvet in the crime.
     
  14. AndHence

    AndHence Active Member

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  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeDee,
    Excellent post. The fibers found at the crime-scene which were also found on items in the suitcase, ties the suitcase to JonBenet's homicide, and kinda explains why JR offered such a lame explanation for the suitcase being in the basement, i.e. he was role-playing a maid with Patsy!

    Looks like the comforter was used after JonBenet lay dying down in the basement and before she was asphyxiated, its even possible she was assaulted in JAR's bedroom, then moved down to the basement, with a blanket from her own room used to fake the staging.

    In simplest terms the comforter could have been used to keep JonBenet warm as she lay dying, and before any decision was taken to kill her?

    .
     
  16. AndHence

    AndHence Active Member

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    I don't think John intended for the suitcase to be part of the intruder 'evidence'. Fleet is the one who moved the suitcase under the window, correct? Once Lou Smit got going, John just went along with whatever theory he thought would clear the family.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    AndHence,
    Whut! Just how do you know this? The existence of the suitcase in the basement is via JR's proxy tale about him doing housework, i.e where is the maid, that it was moved is a moot point, what its prior purpose may have been is more relevant.


    .
     
  18. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    I've learned not to underestimate the power FW, Jr. wields. Folks need to stop. Stop and take a look around. Listen. Listen to the evidence.

    Why would FW move the suitcase, touch the glass shards, pick up and examine the duct tape? Why would his DNA be questioned if found to be in the basement? He went to the wine cellar on the 23rd. But couldn't locate the light switch plate on the 26th? A Faction Leader. FW helps locate the child's dead body. Escorts her 9yo brother straight to his own home before 8am where the Rs had been less than twelve hours earlier. Sorry. That makes no sense to me.

    Fernie. JF reads the RN upside down, while standing from outside a side door, where the closest the RN could possibly be, where it was moved from the staircase steps and placed onto the kitchen tile floor, would be inside that particular area, on the floor, where JR was down on his knees reading it while in his underwear. Give me a break. Fernie was already there. Parked in the alley.

    JR casually hands the RN to the first arriving officer as if it were a napkin to go with his cup of hot Christmas tea. Where are JRs fingerprints on the RN and why has the RN never had any DNA surface except for that of LEO handlers?

    Who stated there were people in the Ramsey home at 3am? Was it JR? I do believe there must have been.

    This horrific event was of deep concern for many people. The A Team was called in to compose the RN of all time in order to explain the SA and the death. The sexual aggression written into the RN and the displayed at the CS coupled with the warnings that JonBenet would be found dead, prepare us for that very thing. The RN was written as a warning to many, including close friends, and those in authoritative places, to not speak to a stray dog. Pretty much everyone obeyed the RN. No one spoke out about the truth of what perpetrated that Christmas Night or of the 23rd and/or hampered the investigation in other ways.

    :cow:
     
  19. singularity

    singularity New Member

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    I don't think there's much of an issue with the moving of the suitcase by Fleet(assuming he has no idea what is in it) or the glass shards but I do believe him going back down to the basement to examine the duct tape and cigar box is a red flag. He did this against orders, which means he felt it worth the risk to get a second look at these items. Why? What was so interesting to him about those two items at that very moment?


    Yeah that story always reeked of horse manure.

    Fleet and/or John cant be blamed for this.....the blame should be aimed at BPD and/or FBI. Burke never should've been allowed to walk anywhere much less be driven somewhere without a BPD/FBI escort. It was still in the kidnapping phase at that point.

    IMO you're going a bit too far with Fleet as a "faction leader" but on the other hand, he's a key figure in the case even if just as a witness as he's the only person on the planet besides John to make multiple trips down to the basement and also the only person besides John to open the wine cellar door.

    In the 'war' thread, Madeleine posted...

    Three minutes from arrival to being down in the basement? Now that's what I'd call a "beeline".

    Of course someone is lying. Their stories don't match on how her body was found for starters.

    Its almost impossible to decipher or unravel the basement sequence since so much evidence has been withheld.
     
  20. expat79

    expat79 Member

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    Don't forget Part 6....which is actually the last part, not part 5.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...d-Strangulation-Devices&p=5796846#post5796846
     

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