Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    otg,
    wrt to the partial hanging theory, if the white cord had been run across
    pipes in the ceiling, would it not bear the marks of discoloration
    (dirt, dust) from the pipes?
    Perhaps that was the section of rope which was needed to be removed for
    staging?
     
  2. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    Nedra shares concern.
    ST Page 90

    "Nedra gave us some two dozen suspects off the top of her head, and when we asked if the initials SBTC meant anything to her, she snapped, "Yes. Son of a ***** Tom Carson." Years before, Carson, the current chief financial officer at Access Graphics, had been involved in Nedra's dismissal from the company. She also pointed to Fleet and Priscilla White, Jeff Merrick and his "vicious" wife, housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, a handyman, a painter, the gardener, the nanny, and a couple"

    FW goes in a beeline down into the basement, opens cellar door, does not see any JB, closes door. FW is in the train room where he moves a suitcase. What was the purpose? Perhaps he opened it. Saw the contents of the blue duvet and possibly the adult book. Snaps the lid closed and sits the suitcase in a slightly different place.

    FW may have known exactly or strongly suspected why the blue duvet set up was convenient, in that, it was used while molesting JB or for redressing her or both [according to the fiber report]. JB obviously was not wearing panties when the murderous headblow occurred. Size 12s were added to make it seem there were initially panties worn and now they are missing. They aren't missing b/c she never had them on. She voided in the Size 12s and white leggings at TOD during the garroting.

    :cow:
     
  3. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    That was my thought originally, Tad. I wondered if the dust on top of the overhead pipes was something anyone would have thought to check. (I doubt it.) But the cord didn’t have to be attached over anything that high. It might just as easily have been simply attached to a doorknob or anything else elevated above the level of her neck.

    Did you ever read the AR for Robin Williams? (It includes the investigation report from the coroner’s assistant who described the scene.) Williams was partially hanged with his belt secured in a closed closet door. His right shoulder was pushed up against the door frame molding. His shirt sleeve was pushed up on his shoulder where it was pushed up as he slid down the wall. He had slowly applied the pressure of his weight to accomplish what he did and the belt eventually slid down from its original position in the door. Had he instead suddenly collapsed, might not his shoulder have had an abrasion on it from being rubbed against the wall? BTW, he also had a protruded tongue with a darkened, drying artifact on the tip.
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Former Member

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    DeDee, forgive me for being forward, but what are you getting at?


    Agreed, 100%
     
  5. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

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    This is chilling, otg. "protruded tongue with a darkened, drying artifact on the tip" just like JB

    When supposing where the hanging, if there were one, took place in the basement, I recall the decorator installing hooks for many of the wreaths that the Rs stored throughout ea yr. Don't recall seeing a picture of the hooks for the wreaths themselves but there was hanging faux greenery in the basement in images we've seen. I guess its only requirement would be that it could hold the weight of her body once it slumped over from the head blow. A hook meant to hold a green wreath might just be adequate.

    It is still inexplicable to me to envision something hitting her head hard enough to knock a 1" x 1 1/2" chunk out of her skull yet not break the skin of the scalp. The scalp is tough and quite vascular but the scalp wasn't tough enough to stop the blow from crushing her skull.
     
  6. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    ty otg

    RW autopsy report:
    http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/williams, robin_report.pdf
     

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  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Former Member

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    Assuming she was hit, would it not make sense if the object were wrapped or covered with something firm yet yielding?
     
  8. GeeEm

    GeeEm New Member

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    September 1, 2016
    10:09 AM EMT

    Boulder police chief updates JonBenet Ramsey case, 20 years on



    [​IMG]


    It will be 20 years in December since JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her family's home in Boulder, but national media are not waiting to take extensive and elaborate notice of that benchmark. Numerous national television productions are gearing up for broadcast this month, and members of the Boulder Police Department have until today refused public comment for those productions about the status of the Ramsey investigation.

    But, in response to numerous requests from programs that are using September to highlight the event that made Dec. 26, 1996, a date of infamy — at least locally — the department today issued a video statement by Boulder Police Chief Greg Testa addressing the state of the case nearly two decades later.
    In a 2-minute, 32-second statement, Testa described the Ramsey investigation as an open case with investigators from the department's major crimes unit still assigned in an ongoing effort to bring "justice for JonBenet.""They receive and evaluate information on a regular basis," Testa said in the video.

    "Our goal continues to be an arrest and successful prosecution, which is why we will not discuss or release details or evidence in this investigation."
    Testa offered an update on the legwork that has gone into the star-crossed probe."To date, the Boulder Police Department has processed more than 1,500 pieces of evidence, including the analysis of over 200 DNA samples," he said. "Our major crimes unit has received and reviewed or investigated over 20,000 tips, letters or emails.

    Our detectives have traveled to over 18 states and interviewed or spoken with more than 1,000 individuals."
    JonBenet, 6, was found murdered in the basement of her family's home at 7849 15th St. — identified at that time as 755 15th St. — early the afternoon of Dec. 26, 1996. Patsy Ramsey, her mother, had called 911 at 5:52 a.m., to report finding that her daughter was missing and that she had discovered a 2 ½ page ransom note demanding $118,000 for the girl's safe return.


    JonBenet Ramsey case

    Pieces of evidence processed: More than 1,500
    DNA samples tested: Over 200
    Tips, letters, emails reviewed or investigated: 20,000-plus
    States traveled to by investigators: More than 18
    People spoken to or interviewed: Over 1,000
    Information on case can be directed to: Boulder Police Department Tip Line: 303-441-1974 or Northern Colorado Crime Stoppers: 1-800-222-TIPS(8477)

    But no attempts to collect a ransom were made, and about 1 p.m. that afternoon, she was found by her father, John Ramsey, in a little used room in the family's basement, a space not thoroughly searched when a police officer looked in the basement upon arrival early that morning.





    http://www.coloradodaily.com/latest...-police-chief-updates-jonbenet-ramsey-case-20

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    O/T Attn: Mods, not sure where to post this, you can move this if needed or delete.

    Thanks ~
     
  9. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, DeDee. I don't understand why so many people (especially so many of the so-called "experts") have trouble seeing the similarities.


    Yes.


    I believe it possible to cause the depressed fracture with no apparent skin breakage on the scalp because of the shape of the weapon. No sharp edges -- no cuts or scrapes.
     
  10. Airasae

    Airasae New Member

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    You can see the rest of the chain hanging down in this image:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZPkSmN-Ij...ALQ/vO5iTT045T0/s1600-h/jonbenetfaceright.jpg
     
  11. Airasae

    Airasae New Member

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    Best explanation I have seen. Certainly a better description than garrote.
     
  12. nolachurch

    nolachurch New Member

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    I've been going over this all wk in my head, for some reason, the rope is in my mind bouncing like crazy, lol. I agree its not a garrogarrote, s a commando toggle knot (commonly taught in Boy Scouts), I don't think it was to strangle her, I t was to move her from one location to another, and was abandoned in the area outside the train room where the urine was found. I believe this was where JonBenet finally diedlaying with her arms up, (that beiung part of the toggle tied to her hands to help pull her.) She was face down, (urine was found on front of stockings, IIRC. The marks on her neck match this scenario, one being low on her neck, others high on her neck. I think this is what ultimately killed her, being dragged and it strangled her. BR knife was found right there and is what he used to cut the nylon rope. Ithink with all the new DNA news, IMHO, every time BR DNA was found, it was mixemixed w/ another to make it "unknown", whether intentionally done or not, but I believe it was intentional, maybe AH had paws in on that. On The rope, IIRC, unknown male DNA was there, on the wrists, and garrote? This case had so many players, with NO SOUL, that added their lies to the whole thing, to muddy the water. Intentionally. I also believe the suitcase was by window for the parents to try to transport her body bbut ran out of time and that's why JR went directly to her to " find her." Sorry for goingoing off topic w/ suitcase, it was in me mind also. Lol. I hope JonBenet gets some sort of justice soon, even if no one is charged, but the TRUTH to come out, that is Important, IMO... :)
     
  13. SandyQLS

    SandyQLS may your life be filled with avocados

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    RSBM for length - otg originally posted on page 29 #422. .......... I disagree that the wrists were "a foot apart" or 15 inches apart. I am looking at the photos of JBR in rigor on the living room carpet which may not have been available back in 2010, and the wrists are very close together. The left elbow is bent over the head so that the left wrist is close to the right wrist. We can identify the right hand by the gold ring on her finger. More interesting is that both wrists are therefore directly "above" the knot on the right posterior neck. It could be a photographic illusion, but it looks to me as though the body is slightly bent at the waist to the right as well. And we know the head and neck were turned to the right in rigor. WHAT in your suspension theory caused all of the ligature apparatus to force to the right? ............. Perhaps the reason the autopsy was delayed 24 hours was so that the rigor would relax and many of the autopsy photos show the body placed in positions different than the original rigor positions (for example the photo of the front of the neck with red triangle mark where the head is forward and not to the right, ie, it has been repositioned since rigor set in). ...........Thanks for a great thread - otg, your theory makes me think there may have been a much more complex cord/ligature/suspension going on and much of the cord was cut away, I wonder if her (right) ankle(s) had also been bound at some point and the cord cut away... and I do not believe that any photos have been leaked of the position of the lower extremities in rigor or autopsy.
     

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  14. AndHence

    AndHence Active Member

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    It's always been strange to me that John described finding JonBenet's body 'wrapped like a papoose'. We know that rigor had long set in and her hands were above her head, making it impossible to appear as John stated.
     
  15. EtherealMoonRose

    EtherealMoonRose Member

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    The pictures are really hard to look at.

    Don't know if it has already been suggested but is it possible she was dragged along the ground with the garrotte? (Could possibly explain the abrasions....)
     
  16. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me New Member

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    I think he was saying she was wrapped in the blanket as opposed to having it placed over her.
     
  17. SandyQLS

    SandyQLS may your life be filled with avocados

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    From the "Premeditated?" thread, page 9, 01-31-2014:
    otg - In the attached photo of the lower back, posters were interested in the dark mark as possibly stun gun remnants, and also in the blue line remnants of livor mortis. But look at those white lines on the back of the waist - they are remarkably different than the pressure marks made when the body was left lying in/on cloth as seen on the upper back. The white lines at the waist look like cord or rope marks, cords around her waist at death but then removed, so as you say, no furrow developed. Would these also be referred to as "argent lines"? I found this post very intriguing, by MurruiFlower #143 from page 10 of this thread:
    EDIT to add: Thinking more, it occurred to me that these white lines at the waist could be from the elastic waistbands of the size-12 panties and longjohns. But there are 3 lines not 2, there is a crisscross and perhaps small furrow as shown in the lower righthand bottom area, whatever was there was left long enough after death to blanche but not long enough to furrow, the panties especially and perhaps the longjohns were too large, and at least the lower body was redressed after death. ?
     

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  18. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    It’s difficult to go back almost seven years and know exactly what I was agreeing with in DeeDee’s post. But you’re correct in thinking that we didn’t have photos of the exact position of her body, arms, and hands. We did know (back then) from the AR that the length of cord between her two wrists was 15.5 inches; and it was assumed that had that cord actually been used to restrain her while alive, her hands would have been that far apart. Knowing that, it can be deduced that this length of cord would not have been effective as a restraint.

    I think I was more agreeing with the part of DeeDee’s post about the lack of apparent injury to her wrists (had they been part of a suspension). But the cord found on her right wrist was tied over the sleeve of the shirt she was found in. All this isn’t really that pertinent to how the ligature caused her death (IMO) because I believe it (the wrist cord) was applied after death to make it appear to be a means of restraint of a living person -- and as a way of using the other portion of cord that had been cut away from the cord around her neck.


    Not knowing many of the factors that would be necessary to reasonably estimate the stage of rigor (Meyer didn’t take any of these critical measurements in the seven minutes he initially examined the body, and he didn’t record the stage of rigor if he did attempt to quantify it), it’s hard to say how stiff or flexible any part of her torso might have been. It could be that the exact position of her torso was at least partly due to how it was lain down by Det. Arndt.

    The autopsy wasn’t done the next day to allow dissipation of rigor -- it was delayed simply for the ME’s convenience. Rigor can be “broken” -- and is, in feeling the resistance in order to estimate the stage.


    Even though I’ve altered it ever so slightly over the years as more information has been released (or leaked), I think it still accounts for all the injuries that are associated with her death. Most theories still don’t rationally account for the neck injuries (especially Spitz's theory).
     
  19. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    A lot to consider, Sandy, and I certainly don’t have all the answers. I’ll try to give you my thoughts and what I know without too much rambling.

    When referring to the blanching found on a corpse, there are three colors to consider:

    • the pale color of the blanched area,
    • the natural color of the unblanched skin,
    • the deeper, darker color of areas affected by blood settlement over a longer period of time (livor mortis).

    Blanching is caused by pressure in the affected area restricting capillary blood flow, whether it is accentuated by natural color or by livor. If it is livor, it indicates the pressure remained for a period of time that extends through that length of time. If the blanching occurs before livor sets in (on either side of the livor/pallor pattern), it may eventually disappear because of the blood settlement.

    I’ve only seen the term argent line used in reference to a ligature -- usually on a victim’s neck, but no reason (I know of) it couldn’t also be used to describe the same thing on any other area of the body (wrist, arm, leg, or even the torso). Simply stated: I don’t know. It is something a coroner, medical examiner, or even a knowledgeable investigator should recognize when a ligature has been removed from a corpse before a furrow can form.

    The photo you referenced has a lot of information in it that we don’t know enough about. Even with more information available to them than we have, “experts” disagree about the cause of the two marks that Lou Smit declared (erroneously, I think) the result of a stun gun. He also theorized the blue line was from the blue spark between the two prongs :)floorlaugh:). I don’t think I really need to point out the folly in that -- the blue lines on her back are blood veins close to the surface. (If you look closely you’ll see others pointed out by the red arrows in your photo.)

    I had considered in the past that at least one of the blanched lines (most likely the highest) might be from a natural crease at her waist if her body had been tilted or turned. But the problem with that (which I couldn’t resolve) is that she would have to be tilted to the left enough to cause the crease. She wasn’t. I’ve considered that the lines might be from either her panties or her long johns (or both since there are three lines). But I don’t think (since we found out about the size of the Bloomies) the panties would be tight enough to cause the restriction. It could have been from the extra thickness of a waistband seam or even a fold in the blanket she was lying on, either of which might simply having the pressure applied to it from the weight of her body. But then, the area that these lines are found is in an area of the waist that would be less likely to be flat against the floor than either side of it (shoulders and butt).

    Back to the long johns... I also thought the two top lines might be from the waistband of her long johns since they appear to be parallel. But now that the photo of them has been released, we know the type of waistband they had. It is ~1” wide elastic which should apply even pressure across the width rather than some other type that would cause two distinctly separate lines.

    One thing I do get from the photo is that the color of the skin is too deep to be her natural color, and it goes all the way to the far left side of her torso. This tells me that even though her head was turned to the right (as evidenced by the livor pattern), her torso was flat.

    All this speculation is simply because the ME didn’t tell us what he was able to see. When her clothes were removed for autopsy, he would know if the lines were caused by any of her clothes. If that was not the cause, he should have tried to determine the source. He didn’t even go to the WC to look at where her body was found to look at what was on the floor underneath her. He didn’t even go down there to measure the ambient temperature for estimating TOD. There was a lot he should have done that he didn't -- and even more that he might have done that is simply not recorded in the AR.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    otg,
    Meyer probably knew the case was RDI, even BDI so that he was always going to be firefighting, so just did the minimum required, since he knew what the outcome was to be?

    .
     

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