Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    Please help me out here,cause the "garrote" has always been giving me headaches.Something's wrong with it and I can't figure out what.

    The fact that someone took the time to break it,to attach it to the cord.....if this was all about staging....why not use a simple damn cord and period.

    Why use her brush for it?A staging is sick enough by itself,but this?

    If the "garrote" was meant and made only to finish her off.....this involves pleasure,sick pleasure,to take the time and make it,to use your own tools or your wife's.Why not suffocate her or bash her head or something.

    If it was meant ONLY for pleasure (sick sex game) then it makes more sense?
     


  2. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

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    I surmise that the knot is difficult to tie. (9 year old would not be able to do this, unless already an expert, not just proficient at tent and boats). The knot is the same knot used by Anthony Allen Shore.

    If an IDI was waiting in the basement he could have been prepared to tie JB up and had the paintbrush broken and ready to use.

    The interesting thing about the paint brush is one piece is used for the murder, 1 is left behind, and 1 is not found at crime scene.

    The one not found tells us something about possible staging. If the RDI they are so good they will never be caught.

    The fact that 1 piece disappears would show the R's knew that the paintbrush was a dangerous piece of evidence to leave behind. The not getting rid of the other two pieces would show more of an IDI being responsible.

    If one piece of the brush is pointing to them then all pieces of it are pointing.All would have been destroyed, awareness of the need to destroy one would also make them destroy all.

    If staging was on their part they wouldn't leave any of it behind. All pieces would have been destroyed, especially the brush end in Patsy's tray.
    If an IDI then it wasn't random spur of the moment, it was planned.

    Plans don't always go as wanted and are often messed up leaving evidence behind.

    Taking souvenirs is often done by certain criminals. Maybe he couldn't resist taking the brush end he molested her with.

    If they have tested the cord and knots looking for DNA then they haven't revealed that info.

    I feel the perp broke the end of the handle off after the knot was tied. That is where the splinter came from or what is refereed to as cellulose material.
    The proximity of the breakage had to occur shortly before it was used as the tiny amount found would have most likely fallen off close to where it is broken or transferred to the area around where it was broken.


    The missing paintbrush piece only make the IDI case stronger.
     
  3. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    The paintbrush wasn't new so who knows when the end actually broke .
     
  4. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    Sorry ,what I meant earlier was why do you need a stick attached if not for pulling the cord.
    Why bother look for a brush,break it and then attach it to the cord.
    And if we're dealing with someone who attached the stick to the cord in order to pull this means it was used as a strangulation device,which is premeditation.

    Cause if you only wanna stage it,you don't need to attach a stick to the cord cause your intent isn't pulling/killing.And why waste time with it.Just put a cord around her neck,make a knot and leave it there .

    This is what I meant,this gives me headaches,the stick attached to the cord,not the cord itself.
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that the abrasion on her right cheek was caused by the piece of paintbrush/"garrote" handle?

    Re what Cathy said,if that piece is indeed misteriously missing,could it be because it had blood or skin on it? (one end of the handle was broken after she was hurt with it?)

    Cause to me the abrasion on her cheek is not similar with the ones on her back (like LS said that all of them were made by the stun gun).They are also different shapes,or?
     
  6. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    CathyR:
    Almost everything in the quote-box above is true. Only thing I would change is the word "murder" (change it to "staging").

    There was no murder, and the paint brush was not used to cause any of the fatal injuries.

    (Read Post #79 above.)
    .
     
  7. tragco

    tragco Member

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    Well, Madeleine, I can only give my opinion. I think that night there was no evidence of penetration by a penis. The supposed pedophile needed to be getting pleasure. A cord strangulation alone would not account for a pedophile getting his kicks. It had to look like a sexual predator with a bondage fantasy.

    However you do make a good point, the vaginal penetration with an object and the strangulation might have been enough. I think if staged the perp wanted to make it look more realistic.
     
  8. tragco

    tragco Member

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    I just thought about if I was a horrible person that wanted to stage a scene like this and I ran around my house what could I use. I can't really think of anything much with the right dimensions... could use a piece of silverware I guess. I have lots of things but they would be too flexible to work. I have wooden hangers but I'd have to saw them to get the right proportion.. There's just really not a lot of things that are easily picked up and used that could look like a sexually fantasized "garrotte". Maybe a screwdriver from my basement?

    I could go outside and try to find a good stick but the dead wood breaks too easy and live wood takes a long time to break (twist,twist, twist). Plus someone might see me.

    That's why a true sexual predator brings his own stuff, I guess. If I was in a hurry and my eyes lit upon something that could be used, then I'd use it.
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    That's the point and the problem here,it's not realistic at all,it's WAY too much!
     
  10. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    Staging is very risky.

    And ITA with what Cathy said :"Plans don't always go as wanted and are often messed up leaving evidence behind."

    This is silly but I wouldn't risk staging anything .I would get rid of the body and even call a cleaner!

    But maybe I am not that cold and calculated and sick and reckless as the one/ones who did the staging in THIS case.
     
  11. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

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    It wouldn't have been before it was tied, that's my point.
     
  12. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    According to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police knot expert, he concluded that it was a Prusik knot. Prusik knots are mainly used for mountain climbing and it took me less than a minute to tie one.

    I know JAR rock climbed and JBR was set to start rock climbing classes.
     
  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    BR knew about sailing and knots, He was a Scout, and knew how to tie knots. That knot was not a complicated one. If anyone here is a knot expert and can say that it IS complicated, please explain it to us.
     
  14. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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  15. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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  16. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    -cigarette butts, leaves and bag

    where exactly did they find these?
     
  17. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    What can I tell you about this knot? Unfortunately, it’s difficult to tell from the only available pictures exactly what the knot is that is tied here. It doesn’t appear to have any particular design or structure to it. It’s not one that I recognize from my “repertoire”, and I have searched as many sources as I can find. It may well be some type of knot that is the result of its collapsing due to the strain put on it. If anyone else thinks they can identify it, given the limited views we have of it, please do. Until that time, I will say that I think it is a “simple” knot tied by someone who wasn’t trying to accomplish a specific purpose other than to secure a loop around JonBenet’s neck, realizing that we don’t know at this point what that person’s ultimate goal was in placing it there. If that person had a specific purpose, it would well have been better served with a better knot designed for the purpose (if the person was skilled at knot tying).

    But what is more important than analyzing exactly what it is, I feel, is what it did. After all, it is the knot tied on the cord which caused the deep ligature furrow, and probably the one which caused the strangulation (more on that later). I should note here that all of this is just my opinion, and that it is based on the information and pictures that have been made public. I do not claim that I am any kind of authority or expert at this, or anything else.

    This knot was clumsily (IMO) tied to her neck and acted as a “slip knot”. [Definition: A slip knot, also called a running knot, is a broad classification of knots that basically refers to any knot that can "slip" along the rope or cord, and/or can be untied by simply pulling one of the ends. A slip knot is sometimes referred to as a simple noose, and has wide range of applications.] How easily it will slip will depend on the exact slip knot that is tied, and how tightly it is tied to the rope or cord it is attached to.

    Now, a couple of things I want to call your attention to, because it will be important later when we put all of this together. I know it’s difficult, but while we’re on the subject of this particular knot, take a look at the leaked autopsy photo showing the ligature still on JonBenet’s neck (Don’t ask me to post it here -- you can all find it.) Take note of, and remember for later, the position (circumferentially around the neck) of where it is. Can we call it her right side below the ear?

    Next I’ll tell you about the “knot” I saved for discussing last -- the one on the broken paint stick.
    .
     
  18. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    I believe the cord was tied around JonBenet's neck while she lay unconcious. The hair and necklace tangled in the cord so much so that the Coroner had to cut her hair speaks volumes. The furrow was a perfect circumference except for a small upward line behind her neck. That poor baby was still alive when the cord was placed around her neck. The swelling from the head blow caused the cord to furrow into her skin.
     
  19. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know about the “wire near body”, but there is another strange wire listed in the evidence as “wire tied in a knot”. I believe it is pictured here and here.

    Wire is sometimes used to “demonstrate” a knot because it is rigid enough to stay in place when bent, showing how a particular knot is tied. I don’t think (JMO) this one is significant though, although I too have wondered about the “wire near body”.

    Anyone?



    I think these were collected outside when they were collecting anything that might possibly be evidence of an "intruder" -- you know, the "pedophile, kidnapping murderer".
    .
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Toltec,

    I must agree with you. It looks very much like deliberate staging to me.

    JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt
    Here the critical phrase is no hemorrhage, and including all the other references to absences e.g. intact hyoid, then the garrote was never used as a strangulation device.

    Prior to her death JonBenet had been subject to sexual contact, and someone then attempted to obscure this by using the paintbrush handle to injure her internally. Probably leaving the missing piece internally, since any evidence left on the missing piece will also appear on the other two pieces?

    There was more than one staging, the change of clothing reflects this, along with the addition of the garrote. Its possible each staging reflects the intentions of each stager.

    So if a PDI e.g. bedwetting rage, then Patsy cleans up accordingly, and decides to leave JonBenet apparently dead in her bed?

    But John offers some advice and then assists Patsy to restage down in the basement, and its him that ties the knot, breaks the paintbrush etc, wipes JonBenet down with his shirt, assaults JonBenet internally, but Patsy being present etc transfers some forensic evidence. All this is done with John offering Patsy some rationale as to why it is better than her staging scenario. Its only at the interview stage does Patsy realize that JonBenet was victim of prior molestation. Then its too late she is an accomplice in a much more serious crime, a capital offence.

    If its JDI then why would Patsy ever assist John with the staging? Only if she was aware and aquiesced with the prior molestation.

    If its BDI, then you have have a motive for involving both parents, but prior knowledge of the chronic abuse is required to then stage a sexual assault, intending to obscure the former.

    So there was sexual contact just prior to her death, and at least one chronic episode of sexual molestation in the days leading up to her death. Although her chronic internal injuries suggest multiple episodes. With staging contrived to mask the chronic sexual molestation, this tells us one or both of the parents was aware of this.

    Thus making the death of JonBenet a sexually motivated homicide.
     

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