Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #105

[nhmemorymaker]

Unfortunately, without vaccine mandates I think that the US will struggle to get more people to take the initial series of Covid vaccines. I foresee there being continued strain on healthcare services, and more illness and death as a result. I wish that people would take the vaccine voluntarily, but I fear that certain media outlets, talk radio, and others have spread too much vaccine mistrust and misinformation. JMO.

my former husband's words: "I'd rather not eat than take that vaccine"

 

[ilovewings]

my former husband's words: "I'd rather not eat than take that vaccine"

Oh dear---- is this something you would have expected from your x????

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Eating everything in sight is a CHOICE too. But hey. So are plenty of other bad choices. JMO

Eating choice does not kill others.

Smokers cannot smoke in closed spaces. They adapt.

The Unvaccinated just exert selfish principles, not humanitarian cooperation.

jmo.......

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I'm sorry katydid. I know you were looking forward to the trip. I'm holding out hope it will only be a short delay and then you be able to visit with your mom. Covid stinks!

Ditto Katydid.... was hoping you would share your 'Roadtrip' with us too.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

You're mom sounds precious! I hope you are able to visit really soon!
I went through the same thing with my mom years ago. Sadly, she has since passed. Your story reminded me of a situation I had with my mom that warms my heart every time I think of it.
Let me preface this story by saying my mom loved animals! All animals but the great apes in particular.
At the time I was going through a rather messy divorce. My mom had a picture of my husband, myself and my 2 young children on her piano. I went to see her daily as she lived close by. She would ask me why my husband wasn't around anymore on most of those days. I would remind her that we were divorcing.

One day (after about two weeks of this) I walked into her place and found a cut out image of an orangutan over my ex husbands face! I laughed so hard. She finally got it!

That is just sooooooooo cute!

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Oh dear---- is this something you would have expected from your x????

16 good years. But today, I really do not even know the man, and wonder how I even did back then.....
The last couple of decades has altered many....
just sayin...

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Eating everything in sight is a CHOICE too. But hey. So are plenty of other bad choices. JMO

Eating choice does not kill others.

Smokers cannot smoke in closed spaces. They adapt.

The Unvaccinated just exert selfish principles, not humanitarian cooperation.

jmo.......

Sooooo EDITING here, because this subject has been discussed at length and depth...

I don't think anyone is wanting to destroy the hallowed principles of the Hippocratic Oath....
but when one reads it, it does seem as if patients have part of the responsibility of holding up that oath.

""I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.""


A Modern Version of the Hippocratic Oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Eating choice does not kill others.

Smokers cannot smoke in closed spaces. They adapt.

The Unvaccinated just exert selfish principles, not humanitarian cooperation.

jmo.......

Sooooo EDITING here, because this subject has been discussed at length and depth...

I don't think anyone is wanting to destroy the hallowed principles of the Hippocratic Oath....
but when one reads it, it does seem as if patients have part of the responsibility of holding up that oath.

""I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.""


A Modern Version of the Hippocratic Oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Help me understand your opinion that patients are somehow responsible in the Hippocratic Oath. Please highlight that part because all I'm seeing is an oath a physician takes, not one a patient takes.

I also completely understand that the opinion exists that the unvaccinated are "selfish" and "not humanitarian".

What I see is a certain segment of the vaccinated population being extremely "snobby" for lack of a better word and feeling "elite" and deserving of special front of the line concierge treatment. This thinking extends to announcing the unvaccinated have less value as humans and should be kicked to the curb and denied treatment. That's actually the definition of selfish and not humanitarian IMO.

 

[weepingangel]

As health care breaks down in Massachusetts, patients die waiting for care


'Crisis point;' Mass. hospitals facing perfect storm of overcrowding

 

[GRT]

Help me understand your opinion that patients are somehow responsible in the Hippocratic Oath. Please highlight that part because all I'm seeing is an oath a physician takes, not one a patient takes.

I also completely understand that the opinion exists that the unvaccinated are "selfish" and "not humanitarian".

What I see is a certain segment of the vaccinated population being extremely "snobby" for lack of a better word and feeling "elite" and deserving of special front of the line concierge treatment. This thinking extends to announcing the unvaccinated have less value as humans and should be kicked to the curb and denied treatment. That's actually the definition of selfish and not humanitarian IMO.

I'm getting this feeling as well, which is what worries me.

Those who are not getting the vaccines (JMOO) are not coming from a place of wanting to harm anyone--they actually are either frightened of the shot or they think they don't need it. I haven't spoken to even one of them who refused to be vaccinated for selfish purposes. They think they're doing the right thing. That's all any of us can do--what we believe to be right. I may disagree with their conclusion but I don't wish them ill.

I'm glad we have the vaccine, and I tell others so, but some have different thoughts and ideas. If they become ill, they need to be treated as anyone else would be treated. That's only humane.

To my way of thinking--it's the messaging around the vaccine that's scared people. We've never had good messaging. We still don't.

 

[Sundog]

I'm getting this feeling as well, which is what worries me.

Those who are not getting the vaccines (JMOO) are not coming from a place of wanting to harm anyone--they actually are either frightened of the shot or they think they don't need it. I haven't spoken to even one of them who refused to be vaccinated for selfish purposes. They think they're doing the right thing. That's all any of us can do--what we believe to be right. I may disagree with their conclusion but I don't wish them ill.

I'm glad we have the vaccine, and I tell others so, but some have different thoughts and ideas. If they become ill, they need to be treated as anyone else would be treated. That's only humane.

To my way of thinking--it's the messaging around the vaccine that's scared people. We've never had good messaging. We still don't.

I agree completely. I got the vaccine and booster, but everyone has to make their own personal decision about this. There are many reasons why people choose to get the vaccine, and many reasons why people choose not to get the vaccine. At the fringe for both camps, there are lots of extreme views. I do have a close friend who is an "anti-vaxxer," she lives in California and we used to work together when I lived in California for about 20 years. We stay in touch and she is one of my closet friends and love her dearly. We disagree on the vaccine, but otherwise have deep respect for one another and have agreed to disagree.

Other people I know, neighbors and others, are not anti-vaxxers, but they have chosen not to get the vaccine but agree that people over 65 and those who are at risk of serious outcomes if they get the vaccine should be vaccinated and protected.

There are all kinds of reasons why people don't want the vaccine, and it is a simplification to call everyone who makes this choice an "anti-vaxxer." Some don't trust the government, and some never have. Some feel the vaccine was developed too quickly, regardless if it was in development for many years prior based on earlier infectious diseases.

In any event, I have not lost friends, nor have any disrespect for anyone who has made a different decision than I have. I don't let vaccine status determine my view of others.

 

[mickey2942]

I have always been very impressed with people from Canada, the ones I have met, seem to take personal responsibility for their health very seriously.

Like having "socialized medicine" makes it almost a moral/social obligation to stay healthy. Or maybe, it has just been the folks I have met. Maybe I meet people more interested in their health and fitness due to my own interests.

 

[Sundog]

I have always been very impressed with people from Canada, the ones I have met, seem to take personal responsibility for their health very seriously.

Like having "socialized medicine" makes it almost a moral/social obligation to stay healthy. Or maybe, it has just been the folks I have met. Maybe I meet people more interested in their health and fitness due to my own interests.

I don't know the official stats, but if I look at my own family in Canada, approximately 100 relatives, I would say that their health issues are about the same as ours here in the U.S.

 

[CharlestonGal]

Help me understand your opinion that patients are somehow responsible in the Hippocratic Oath. Please highlight that part because all I'm seeing is an oath a physician takes, not one a patient takes.

I also completely understand that the opinion exists that the unvaccinated are "selfish" and "not humanitarian".

What I see is a certain segment of the vaccinated population being extremely "snobby" for lack of a better word and feeling "elite" and deserving of special front of the line concierge treatment. This thinking extends to announcing the unvaccinated have less value as humans and should be kicked to the curb and denied treatment. That's actually the definition of selfish and not humanitarian IMO.

That argument works both ways. In the linked article under discussion, the decision has been made to provide scarce medical treatment (antivirals) giving PRIORITY to unvaccinated patients. Not equal access. Priority. So the vaccinated are the ones being kicked to the curb in this case - which your own words state is the definition of selfish and not humanitarian.

That kind of flawed triage decision making can lead to other unintended consequences - such as people making the decision not to vaccinate because it will cut them out of early treatment with mabs or antivirals simply because they are vaccinated.

My point is, vaccination status should not be a considered a triage criteria at all. Either way. No medical system should be prioritizing treatment of one group over the other. Which is what they are doing.

Pfizer's Covid-19 antiviral pill was hailed as a game-changer, but supplies are scarce – KION546

 

[Sundog]

That argument works both ways. In the linked article under discussion, the decision has been made to provide scarce medical treatment (antivirals) giving PRIORITY to unvaccinated patients. Not equal access. Priority. So the vaccinated are the ones being kicked to the curb in this case - which your own words state is the definition of selfish and not humanitarian.

That kind of flawed triage decision making can lead to other unintended consequences - such as people making the decision not to vaccinate because it will cut them out of early treatment with mabs or antivirals simply because they are vaccinated.

My point is, vaccination status should not be a considered a triage criteria at all. Either way. No medical system should be prioritizing treatment of one group over the other. Which is what they are doing.

Pfizer's Covid-19 antiviral pill was hailed as a game-changer, but supplies are scarce – KION546

You make a good point, but if the science is telling them that the unvaccinated are at a greater risk of serious outcomes with covid-19, then this is probably what is informing public health policy. That policy is based on population health level, not on individual responses to the disease. Balancing both would be difficult, but I agree, it should be done, and medical professionals should make their decisions based on patient's needs, but perhaps their hands are tied due to policy decisions based on other factors, i.e. public health level of analysis.

 

[CSIDreamer]

That argument works both ways. In the linked article under discussion, the decision has been made to provide scarce medical treatment (antivirals) giving PRIORITY to unvaccinated patients. Not equal access. Priority. So the vaccinated are the ones being kicked to the curb in this case - which your own words state is the definition of selfish and not humanitarian.

That kind of flawed triage decision making can lead to other unintended consequences - such as people making the decision not to vaccinate because it will cut them out of early treatment with mabs or antivirals simply because they are vaccinated.

My point is, vaccination status should not be a considered a triage criteria at all. Either way. No medical system should be prioritizing treatment of one group over the other. Which is what they are doing.

Pfizer's Covid-19 antiviral pill was hailed as a game-changer, but supplies are scarce – KION546

Speaking of scarce supplies, my state is out of rapid tests again. Note these are state supplied rapid tests, not OTC tests.

 

[Sundog]

Speaking of scarce supplies, my state is out of rapid tests again. Note these are state supplied rapid tests, not OTC tests.

Our state has the rapid tests now, but is assigning them to K-12 schools and colleges and universities, in order to support in-person learning for students and teachers. Normally pubic libraries and others would receive a supply, but for now, public library supplies are on hold.

 

[Arkay]

have they changed rules on who can donate??? I was rejected decades ago because I weighed too little (ions ago!!! ha ha), and then because I had esophogeal reflux??? But I have also had breast cancer? Does anyone know if they are looser now on who can donate????

Eons ago I was too skinny, as well. No longer. However, I have an identical twin and she had breast cancer when we were 31. We are now 64 and she is NOT allowed to donate. I don't know if that's the same rule everywhere, though.

As to who should be allowed hospital treatment---I very much understand the Hippocratic Oath, as well as being humane, and I'm not at all saying the unvaccinated should not be treated.

What I AM saying is that the choice of the unvaccinated supersedes just their own health choices. Yes, of course they must be treated. HOWEVER, since 2020 it has been our turn for the relentless plagues that infect humankind throughout history. But we live in the 21st century and we have knowledge and weapons that were unimaginable to our ancestors.

Those who refuse a vaccine to halt or minimize Covid have created a tsunami for the hospitals. This tsunami has overwhelmed the opportunity for lifesaving care for many. The amount of people all sick with the same disease simultaneously has led to a shortage of available beds , and a shortage of health care workers to minister to them.

The vaccinated and the unvaccinated are all being turned away from surgery and so on, because there is no room in the inn. Or not enough doctors, nurses and other staff to tend to them.

IMO this is ignorance and selfishness and pride that they know more than doctors and scientists.

I'll analogize it to people who hear the tsunami warnings, or the hurricane warnings, or tornado warnings, or warnings that a volcano is about to erupt, and they say "no, thanks, I'll stay." Then they die needlessly, or are in precarious situations, and the rescuers have to jeopardize their own lives after to remove them from the rubble or the floods. Etc.

Jmo

 

[katydid23]

I agree completely. I got the vaccine and booster, but everyone has to make their own personal decision about this. There are many reasons why people choose to get the vaccine, and many reasons why people choose not to get the vaccine. At the fringe for both camps, there are lots of extreme views. I do have a close friend who is an "anti-vaxxer," she lives in California and we used to work together when I lived in California for about 20 years. We stay in touch and she is one of my closet friends and love her dearly. We disagree on the vaccine, but otherwise have deep respect for one another and have agreed to disagree.

Other people I know, neighbors and others, are not anti-vaxxers, but they have chosen not to get the vaccine but agree that people over 65 and those who are at risk of serious outcomes if they get the vaccine should be vaccinated and protected.

There are all kinds of reasons why people don't want the vaccine, and it is a simplification to call everyone who makes this choice an "anti-vaxxer." Some don't trust the government, and some never have. Some feel the vaccine was developed too quickly, regardless if it was in development for many years prior based on earlier infectious diseases.

In any event, I have not lost friends, nor have any disrespect for anyone who has made a different decision than I have. I don't let vaccine status determine my view of others.

I hear ya.

Everyone in my immediate family is triple vaxxed. But we have a very close family friend that is adamantly rejecting getting his shots.

He is an enigma to me because he is NOT a selfish young man and he is every bit a true humanitarian. He has built about a dozen Habitat for Humanity homes over the years. He volunteers for several non-profit charities.

So WHY does he refuse the vacs?
Several reasons and we have had this intense conversation a dozen times. And at the end, he is very convincing.

In reality, he is the healthiest, most athletic person I know. He does marathons and mountain climbing and expert rock climbing. He is a VERY strict VEGAN. He eats NO processed food of any kind, no meat, no dairy, no eggs, and everything is raw and fresh. He occasionally drinks beer or wine but only on special occasions.

I have never seen him get sick with the flu or a cold or anything. He is in his late 20's. He insists that his immune system is working at a peak level and he does not think that he will have a severe case of covid if he catches it.

Meanwhile, he is tested 2x a week for his job. And he ALWAYS wears masks and socially distanced and pretty much quarantines the rest of the time with his girlfriend and their 2 dogs. She works from home.

His body is very sensitive and reactive to any type of medicines and always has been. His father and uncles had heart problems and he does not feel safe taking the shots because he feels vulnerable to heart issues down the road.

He feels that he would rather take his chances with the virus using his own immune system which appears to be working well.

OH, AND BOTH HIS PARENTS AND HIS BROTHER AND COUSIN HAVE ALL HAD COVID ALREADY, AS BREAKTHROUGH CASES, AS THEY ARE AL TRIPLE VAXXED.

So he has very good arguments that seem logical and well thought out. His vaccinated family members have had the virus while he has not. None of them had severe cases and I have told him many times that he might not be so lucky.

But I cannot say that he is stupid or selfish or reckless. He is none of those things. He is far more health conscious and responsible with his food and lifestyle and exercise routines than anyone I know.

So it does bother me when I hear some of the vitriol against 'the unvaxxed' ----speaking about them all as if they were an inferior race that deserved to die. I think there are conscientious, logical people who have come to their own conclusions and if they have GOOD REASONS, I support their decisions.

If someone is being lazy or reckless or political----and they are not young and extremely healthy, then I think it is a very poor decision. But if someone is doing everything possible to avoid the virus, by taking precautions, and are being tested routinely for work, and have very healthy immune systems, then I don't think they have a negative affect upon the rest of us. JMO

 

[Satchie]

To my way of thinking--it's the messaging around the vaccine that's scared people. We've never had good messaging. We still don't.

Just to comment on this angle, I know we all like to think we are automous individuals making up our own minds, but I think we underestimate the amount of influence others play in decision-making, as well as other beliefs that come from our 'community' of like-minded people.

IMO, most people see themselves as being a certain kind of person, a peer in a certain kind of group.

As an example, I used to do yoga and noticed back then the anti-vax views frequently expressed by people (particularly women) more deeply involved in the wellness, yoga, new agey community - along with lots of other beliefs, such as anti-mainstream medicine, and large numbers of people/shops offering expensive alternatives.

People who see themselves as affiliated with this group have fairly naturally adopted anti-covid vaccine views, too (although, because stakes are higher, it's created deep divisions)

I don't know how, or whether, the government could adopt a particular form of messaging that would work with this group. The fervent ones will never believe a government spokesperson, who is mainstream medicine/Big Pharma personified.

And for the government to pretend not to be what they are and what they stand for: science, prescription drugs, government control of public health, to try to pretend they are invested in yoga and organic whole food as the true answer to all health problems - they would be lying, and then they really would be in a conspiracy to undermine the individual, just as the conspiracy theorists imagine.

Chakras, crystals and conspiracy theories: how the wellness industry turned its back on Covid science