Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #99

Discussion in 'Coronavirus - Covid-19' started by Amonet, Jan 17, 2020.

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  1. Cool Cats

    Cool Cats Well-Known Member

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    Anti-vax: What changes minds when it comes to vaccine hesitancy?

    When Christine Vigeant was pregnant with her daughter she had an idea of the kind of mother she wanted to be. She practiced attachment parenting with anti-vaccine beliefs.

    For many parents, she said, fear of the unknown outweighs fear of diseases they've never seen in their lifetimes.

    How not to talk to an anti-vaxxer
    Vigeant said when people tried to counter her beliefs with facts, it only made her more resolute. When you encounter facts that don’t support your idea, your belief in that idea actually grows stronger.

    Vigeant was able to effectively use the Internet to find information that supported the beliefs she already held.

    Vigeant says her beliefs about vaccines changed slowly. The seed was planted when a friend posted on Facebook that she had just vaccinated her kids. Like Vigeant, she also practiced attachment parenting.

    The post read, “I just had my children injected with toxins at the doctor’s office, but it’s okay, I gave them an organic lollipop afterwards.”

    Vigeant said she watched as her friend gracefully chatted on Facebook with those fearful of vaccines, gently debunking myths, and always empathizing.

    "Having someone from my own circle who believed in the same things I did questioning the dogma of not vaccinating was really helpful," she said.

    Advice from a pediatrician
    Vigeant took two classes which changed her thinking. One was Critical Thinking and the other was Science and Pseudoscience, both taught by the same professor.

    "He asked people not just to think about why they believe what they believe, but to ask yourself instead how could what you believe be false?"

    That's when Vigeant said she began to seek information outside of her core group. She began to talk openly with her pediatrician about her concerns and over time she saw the risks of vaccinating did not outweigh the risk of contracting a contagious disease. Today her daughter and son are fully vaccinated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021


  2. weepingangel

    weepingangel Well-Known Member

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    Well I appreciate you, secret vaxxers!!

     
  3. GRT

    GRT Well-Known Member

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    It's really too bad there's so much divisiveness surrounding the vaccine that some folks have to hide getting it from family and friends.

    Nobody should feel bad because they want to protect themselves from the virus.
     
  4. ilovewings

    ilovewings Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that insane??? feeling like you have to lie to people about getting a medicine that could save your life. ---- it is just nutso!!!!!
    lives
     
  5. musicaljoke

    musicaljoke Well-Known Member

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    Premier Doug Ford announced Wednesday that Ontario will be the fourth province to require residents to prove their vaccination status in order to attend certain indoor spaces such as bars and fitness classes, starting on Sept 22.

    Only children and those with a doctor’s note will be exempt from the rules.

    Those situations are very few, the email goes on to say. Two valid reasons are if a person had a severe reaction to a previous dose of mRNA vaccine, or if a person had a case of myocarditis following a vaccine. Both are extremely rare.

    Whitmore wrote that all doctors’ exemption notes need to clearly state the reason for the exemption, and the time period of the exemption, as it may not be permanent.
    College of Physicians warns of ‘unfounded’ requests for vaccine exemptions, says qualifying list is short
     
  6. musicaljoke

    musicaljoke Well-Known Member

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    Yeah for sure. It's difficult to provide very many private opportunities for vaccinations, but obviously there is a need.
     
  7. musicaljoke

    musicaljoke Well-Known Member

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    Wow, what can I say? <Raising my eyebrow.>
     
  8. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    We who are vaccinated comprise about 0.4-0.5% of total new cases...so two bonuses!
     
  9. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    Amazing stats (I love looking at these local slices). At least you've got 50% vaccinated, despite DiSantis's intense work to make sure no one gets vaccinated.

    Then, add in the 15% of Floridians who have likely had COVID and are not vaccinated. You're gonna get there! Sadly, it will be through 25-35% of Floridians getting COVID over the next year or two. Of those, at least 1% will die and 10% may require (although not always get) hospitalization.

    What is your impression of what's going on in those counties? Those are some of the lowest stats I've seen - are there also very high COVID rates there? I know Florida's general positivity rate is pretty high.
     
  10. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    That varies a great deal from state to state. In California, for example, if you look at the number of tests done, it's 82 million tested (that's twice the state's population). There are many workplaces requiring weekly testing - if the place is high risk (nursing homes, hospitals, some schools).

    Many people - as you can see right here on WS - do go for testing without being symptomatic. You're right that we don't know our overall rate, but I don't think we're underestimating by a lot - except in states without the will to test properly.
    Al
    As more people get vaccinated, there will be fewer tests done. For my household, a runny nose is now just a runny nose (not only are all the adults who come inside vaccinated, but none of us works or goes to a high risk place).

    If you're right, though, that means places like North Dakota, South Dakota, Florida and elsewhere...should eventually plateau and then decline in COVID cases (and perhaps that's what we're seeing). Also note that the states that had more testing have now got much lower COVID rates - it does help if people know they do or don't have it.
     
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  11. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, thank you. I realised when I re-found the article that it was posted here, due to that cartoon. :)

    Very good article. Well worth reading. And gives another perspective, from two immunologists and a bioimmunologist ... all with PhDs. (I looked them up, to see who they are.)

    It seems that while the antibodies are less at around 6 months after vaccination, the protection is even greater and stronger at the 8 month mark - from fewer and stronger antibodies that have beecome an integral part of a person's immune system.

    Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think
     
  12. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    That's not what the actual infection data shows, though. The protection is not stronger at 8 months. So they can speculate all day long about "stronger" cells, actual data is not showing that to be true.
     
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  13. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    It's a lot higher than that with delta.
     
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  14. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is speculation. They are explaining how vaccines work. If some feel that they are debunking that booster shots are needed for over 60s or immunocompromised people, I don't think that is what they are doing.

    They are giving confidence about how most people's immunity system works. How the body's protection is generated. Which should be quite applicable to most younger people, and is likely the reason that the vaccinated are getting less sick.

    They are trying to separate the media hype from how vaccines actually work.
     
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  15. SouthAussie

    SouthAussie Well-Known Member

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    Yay ... ½ a million doses of Pfizer have arrived in Sydney overnight. Our govt did a deal with Singapore. ½ a million doses of their soon-to-expire vaccines, which we will replace for them in December when our supply has become more plentiful.

    Touch down: Extra Pfizer jabs arrive
     
  16. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    And we are now distributing booster shots here in California!
     
  17. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  18. 10ofRods

    10ofRods Verified Anthropologist

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    Yes, they're trying explain some parallel processes of developing immunity, which are lumped together as "immunity" (when, it were another system of the body, we'd probably separate out - but the fact is, the whole subject of immunity is so incredibly complicated that it takes constant work just to tread water in understanding the science behind it).

    There is an aspect of immunity that develops more slowly (in everyone) and is still ongoing in people who have had the vaccine. While it's not the same "at the ready" kind of immunity you want in your mucous membranes, it is crucial to longterm immunity. This has a complex relationship with how COVID might present clinically in the vaccinated. So, naturally, that will spark more research as COVID goes into time-phased presentations dependent on distance from vaccination.

    For example, we're see a lot of "break-through" cases (80% of the cases at the medical center nearest me) in people who are either 1) less than 3 weeks out from their first shot (but going about business as usual) and/or less than 2 weeks out from their second shot. There's a behavioral difference in the two groups - but a similar outcome (which is interesting), The first group thinks it's fine to go to house parties (or whatnot) with just one shot, almost as soon as they got it. Okay.

    The second group thinks that surely, after 2 weeks of being fully vaccinated, I can go to that house party (and indeed, "house party" is one of the vectors that we're seeing in the rare, usually young, people who are getting breakthrough COVID (testing positive - sometimes asymptomatically, but required to test for work or school).

    That figure is with the Delta variant in it. Presumably, it would be lower without Delta. Do you have a source for separate figures for Delta?

    (I'm estimating based on the past 14 days in North America - where the Delta variant is pretty extensive already - not sure if you can find a study where a local population is shown to have more Delta and signicantly different numbers - that's why I put the dash in there).

    I would love to see a citation, as it really interests me.
     
  19. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Various states release their breakthrough numbers.
    "In the last 30 days, vaccinated individuals in Michigan have represented 28.1% of hospitalizations, and nearly 15.4% of COVID-19 deaths, according to data from the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services. That’s 6,151 out of 26,272 total cases, 198 out of 704 total hospitalizations, and 10 out of 65 deaths."
    COVID risks for the fully vaccinated: What we know and what we don’t about Delta - mlive.com
     
  20. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Israel is a good example of what is to come in other countries with high vaccination rates. Immunity is reduced over time. Israel was first to be vaccinated, and first to experience reduced immunity, and first to see hospitalizations of double vaccinated patients due to Delta variant.

    "Just months ago, Israel was a world leader in vaccinating its population and appeared to be putting a stranglehold on the virus that causes COVID-19, wrestling down its daily case count to double digits — and at times, near zero.

    But any potential celebration was short-lived, as the more contagious delta variant gained traction and spread quickly, to the point where Israel's most recent daily case count was around 11,000 — a level not seen since January.

    According to some Israeli scientists, this reversal of fortune provides lessons for countries like Canada, as we enter a fourth wave, to remain cautious about letting any guard down — to avoid some of the mistakes their country made.
    ...

    Data showed that of the serious cases being admitted to hospital, around 60 per cent of patients were people who had been fully vaccinated, though most were over 60 or with underlying health conditions.
    ...

    The most cautionary tale for Canada could be observations that the rate of infection has been found to be higher in people vaccinated back in January, compared with people who were vaccinated in April, said Leshem.

    "In simple words: That protection against infection is waning over time."

    These results were observed in people who were double vaccinated, regardless of age or whether they were immunocompromised, he said.
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-covid-delta-variant-booster-1.6159472

     
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