CT CT - Barbara Hamburg, 48, Madison, 3 Mar 2010

[newsatfive]

I keep wondering about the coffee cup also , which I missed the first time watching that episode.

I keep wondering if someone planted the cup there . What if all that evidence was planted there.
Maybe there was but it wasn't mentioned that there was any blood near the cup or any of the other items

Madison Police also asked Madison something to the effect of "How well do you know Conway Beach?"

If the allegation that the chief suspect had his or her phone off for 24 hours is true, then when did that 24-hour period end, e.g. did the phone turn on again sometime between 8 a.m. and 10:54 a.m. (when Ali left school)?

Also, what independent verification was there as to calls and texts sent or received by Conway Beach and/or Jeffrey Hamburg during the 24-hour window that included the time of the murder?

It's one thing to say that someone texted Conway Beach or Jeffrey Hamburg during the time when the suspect's phone was allegedly off, and another to prove Conway Beach's or Jeffrey Hamburg's cell phone (rather than Apple Message on desktop) received and/or responded to the text from his/her cell phone during the time period when the suspect's phone was allegedly off.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I read everything I could find on this case before commenting.

First, to Ali and Madison...
The path your parents and relatives chose, and the mistakes they have made throughout their lives, don't have to be *your* destiny. Learn from the choices they made, the consequences, and chart your own drama and chaos free lives.
I'm rooting for you both, and surrounding you with love.

To Madison - well done. That being said, you're getting very close to a discovery, and you need to take special, rigorous precautions to insure your own safety; out of an abundance of caution.

I have a prime theory, and a back up theory on what happened to Barbara. One thing is for certain, there are no lack of people with apparent motives. It really doesn't matter what my theories are; this case will be solved with DNA studies. If Madison isn't already working with Parabon Labs and CeCe Moore, I highly suggest he do so. The police department handling the case will have to agree to her involvement. With the now high profile of this case (well done Madison!) I think they will agree if approached correctly, and respectfully.

With regard to the local law enforcement. There is nothing to be gained by criticizing their work...nothing. I recommend focusing on bringing in resources that can augment their work. It's like asking your primary care physician to do open heart surgery; not their specialty. Some concept here.

Finally, I think it is unconscionable that the Aunt accused the daughter of murdering her own mother. Horrible, just horrible. I do, however, find it extremely interesting that Barbara was left covered with cushions. Theoretically, that is a sign of someone who knew her, and felt remorse after the vicious and murderous act. (Amateur opinion).

This case will be solved with DNA, phone and internet records, and other sound law enforcement investigative techniques.
Do I think this case will be solved? 100% yes. I have no doubt.
God Bless Madison and Ali.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Manwel]

Madison Police also asked Madison something to the effect of "How well do you know Conway Beach?"

If the allegation that the chief suspect had his or her phone off for 24 hours is true, then when did that 24-hour period end, e.g. did the phone turn on again sometime between 8 a.m. and 10:54 a.m. (when Ali left school)?

Also, what independent verification was there as to calls and texts sent or received by Conway Beach and/or Jeffrey Hamburg during the 24-hour window that included the time of the murder?

It's one thing to say that someone texted Conway Beach or Jeffrey Hamburg during the time when the suspect's phone was allegedly off, and another to prove Conway Beach's or Jeffrey Hamburg's cell phone (rather than Apple Message on desktop) received and/or responded to the text from his/her cell phone during the time period when the suspect's phone was allegedly off.

I sometimes feel like Conway makes more sense than JH. Her response about carrying a hammer with her under the seat of her car because she thought that's how her sister died? Did the police tell her that? Seriously, the creepiest part of the series.

The reason I highlight Conway again is because her only alibi was sorting basement stuff at her grandmother's house and the only person who can vouch for her now is dead? But more importantly, WHO DOES THIS AT 8 IN THE MORNING? What a convenient time to be moving stuff in a basement—while your sister is getting murdered! Also, about the underwear called out in the report I mentioned in a previous post, I've read recently about a case where the killer had pulled someone's underwear down to make it look like a rape but there wasn't a rape. There was no DNA, no proof of any contact. If her underwear had been pulled down by a woman killer, that would be an attempt to distract the police into thinking it was a sex crime from a man.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I sometimes feel like Conway makes more sense than JH. Her response about carrying a hammer with her under the seat of her car because she thought that's how her sister died? Did the police tell her that? Seriously, the creepiest part of the series.

The reason I highlight Conway again is because her only alibi was sorting basement stuff at her grandmother's house and the only person who can vouch for her now is dead? But more importantly, WHO DOES THIS AT 8 IN THE MORNING? What a convenient time to be moving stuff in a basement—while your sister is getting murdered! Also, about the underwear called out in the report I mentioned in a previous post, I've read recently about a case where the killer had pulled someone's underwear down to make it look like a rape but there wasn't a rape. There was no DNA, no proof of any contact. If her underwear had been pulled down by a woman killer, that would be an attempt to distract the police into thinking it was a sex crime from a man.

I think the underwear got pulled down in the struggle, or moving the deceased. I don't think this Perp was particularly bright. Rage; they used whatever was handy to kill the Victim, in my amateur opinion.

It's a matter of time....they are going down. Tick tock loser. Keep looking over your shoulder. Lot's of eyeballs on this one. Loser.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Manwel]

I think the underwear got pulled down in the struggle, or moving the deceased. I don't think this Perp was particularly bright. Rage; they used whatever was handy to kill the Victim, in my amateur opinion.

It's a matter of time....they are going down. Tick tock loser. Keep looking over your shoulder. Lot's of eyeballs on this one. Loser.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I'd want to know from LE how common it is with "victim dragging" for close-fitting clothing like underwear to be pulled off the body. It needs to catch upon something and work its way off more than a loose-fitting pant.

Also, if we're discussing cushions being used to hide the body because of the killer's shame or guilt, you would think that would include pushing her clothing back up. They didn't take the time to do that, so how apologetic did this killer really feel to leave her exposed like that?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'd want to know from LE how common it is with "victim dragging" for close-fitting clothing like underwear to be pulled off the body. It needs to catch upon something and work its way off more than a loose-fitting pant.

Also, if we're discussing cushions being used to hide the body because of the killer's shame or guilt, you would think that would include pushing her clothing back up. They didn't take the time to do that, so how apologetic did this killer really feel to leave her exposed like that?

They might have been in a hurry, and this was a hasty covering up without positioning or pant pulling up. The pants coming down could have occurred in the struggle, or as I suggested in dragging her.
I stand by my original amateur speculation.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Manwel]

They might have been in a hurry, and this was a hasty covering up without positioning or pant pulling up. The pants coming down could have occurred in the struggle, or as I suggested in dragging her.
I stand by my original amateur speculation.

Amateur opinion and speculation

They took the time to go acquire a number of cushions as well as a giant wooden pallet from around the back of the house and side in order to cover up what they did, something that took at least two or more trips to bring over based on Madison actually performing the work, including pulling the victim's body across the grass. That being said, it took maybe 3-5 minutes. Not terribly long. Still, that's time spent at the scene. To me that counters the argument that they were in a hurry.

The investigator in the series specifically calls it "guilt" and says it's a form of shame to cover up their actions; the investigator actually told Madison it wasn't the killer trying to "clean up." I'm reporting what was said in the series by a professional. But what I am countering is the idea that they were overly attentive about making her look more neat or shielded. If they really felt guilt and shame, pulling up her pants would be part of it. They didn't, so that doesn't tell me they were extremely overcome with guilt.

 

[OverTheRhine]

I got the impression the detectives were absolutely screwing with Madison about the cigarette, male hamburg dna, and cell phone being turned off because all 3 pointed to Madison himself and they knew he was 'secretly' filming/recording them. The way the detective was like "you got one out of me" so casually. I get the feeling they do not have the best relationship and the PD was just getting tired of him trying trying to record them and squeeze evidence/information out of them.

 

[Stephen2016]

I don't understand the pallet being used to cover up blood on the ground . Why nobody could see if from a distance I would think ? I'm stuck on thinking the reason the body was covered was so someone could establish an alibi by trying to make sure the Body wasn't seen until a certain amount of time. Maybe that's why they covered the blood just in case someone came by and noticed it.

 

[sunshineray]

Some things I just noticed upon rewatching specific clips from Episode 3 where they do walkthroughs with Conway, the investigator, ask Ali what she remembers coming to the house, and also the autopsy report:

1. Madison refers to Barb's phone that was dropped by the door and found, which wasn't mentioned by Conway or Ali.

2. The keys and purse are near each other, coffee cup is maybe a yard away by walkway when Madison recreates the scene with investigator, so not all clustered right in the same spot. Somehow I find it strange that the phone is first dropped at the door but she's still holding onto that coffee cup?

3. There is a photo shown of the porch and the dog statue, which is positioned in the dirt near the walkway, not on the porch. The photo shows metal patio furniture by the door. In the photo, the statue looks whole, but Ali says it was toppled to the side and broken. I cannot tell if the photo is a family photo of the house or something the police took at the time. Despite patio furniture and a drainpipe attached to house, nothing else was disturbed by the porch except the toppled statue? This is weird to me.

4. The autopsy report (if you freeze the frame) says there was a bruise around her right eye, a bruise on her forehead, and then the back of the head is where the majority of the violence was, including a skull fracture, a large laceration that was triangular in shape, and then some smaller lacerations that had circular bruises around them. It's not visible on the screen but Madison also reads off that she had a broken arm and a broken rib and internal damage of some kind (I don't recall the scientific terms used). There were also defensive wounds on both hands.

5. I also managed to freeze frame a paragraph of the crime scene report on the screen and it says the body was found supine (on her back) but the same paragraph on the screen says Ali and Conway rolled her over, so she was face-down when they found her. There's also part of the paragraph cut off that says something about "The body also was found with the panties and p...prior to my arrival." I wonder if this says that the panties and pajama pants were down prior to arrival of examiner? If they were both down, that says a lot more about perception of the crime. I can imagine a body being dragged and pulling the pajama pants down, but not the underwear. The underwear would have been purposefully pulled down.

6. The same paragraph above I freeze-framed also mentions dirt on the left knee of the pajama bottoms. Surprisingly, no mention of dirt in other locations that would be consistent with either rolling around on the ground, getting pushed down, etc. I'm surprised it's just one callout of the one knee.

7. The same autopsy paragraph also mentions "numerous puncture wounds on the head, throat, and back of neck." This paragraph is the observation of the body at the scene, not an autopsy. The autopsy report would have more detail about whether these punctures were deep penetrations of the throat or superficial abrasions. The autopsy report I freeze-framed does mention "superficial abrasions" on her neck that are not called lacerations, which are worse.

1 and 2 make it sound like BH was maybe coming out her front door, phone drops, coffee cup, then purse and keys...maybe someone was outside waiting by the door and hit her as soon as she walked over threshold? The broken arm, rib and internal injuries as well as the bruises by her eye and forehead all could have come from falling on top of that statue, especially if her assailant threw their body weigh on her hard. Maybe the "defensive wounds" were in defense of falling? Even the "dirt" on the left knee could have been from a forceful fall by the statue.

That large laceration in a triangular shape is interesting. Been trying to think of what object was used to hit or punch that would leave a triangular shaped wound that at the least goes beneath the skin...maybe a ring?

I think being dragged could certainly pull down pajamas and the underwear too if it were lightweight but they could have been found up and lowered a bit by first responders?

Thank you so much for gathering that info and posting it. It raises many questions and confirms this was a crime filled with anger against the victim.

 

[sunshineray]

They took the time to go acquire a number of cushions as well as a giant wooden pallet from around the back of the house and side in order to cover up what they did, something that took at least two or more trips to bring over based on Madison actually performing the work, including pulling the victim's body across the grass. That being said, it took maybe 3-5 minutes. Not terribly long. Still, that's time spent at the scene. To me that counters the argument that they were in a hurry.

The investigator in the series specifically calls it "guilt" and says it's a form of shame to cover up their actions; the investigator actually told Madison it wasn't the killer trying to "clean up." I'm reporting what was said in the series by a professional. But what I am countering is the idea that they were overly attentive about making her look more neat or shielded. If they really felt guilt and shame, pulling up her pants would be part of it. They didn't, so that doesn't tell me they were extremely overcome with guilt.

The poster who compiled the info wrote this...

"There's also part of the paragraph cut off that says something about "The body also was found with the panties and p...prior to my arrival." I wonder if this says that the panties and pajama pants were down prior to arrival of examiner?"

From what was posted it's not a given that the panties and pajamas were down.

 

[Satch]

I got the impression the detectives were absolutely screwing with Madison about the cigarette, male hamburg dna, and cell phone being turned off because all 3 pointed to Madison himself and they knew he was 'secretly' filming/recording them. The way the detective was like "you got one out of me" so casually. I get the feeling they do not have the best relationship and the PD was just getting tired of him trying trying to record them and squeeze evidence/information out of them.

Possible,

Thing is though, who else does Madison go to for answers and evidence? I love him for doing all this work! He is amazing!

Satch

 

[Satch]

I sometimes feel like Conway makes more sense than JH. Her response about carrying a hammer with her under the seat of her car because she thought that's how her sister died? Did the police tell her that? Seriously, the creepiest part of the series.

Yea,

That was creepy. Conway, "Who doesn't have a hammer? I carry a hammer in my car since my sister died." Than doesn't she say, "I wouldn't be good at using a knife, but I would be good at using a hammer."

Satch

 

[Stephen2016]

Was Ali chronically late for school ? Or was that an unusual circumstance that particular day?

I don't really expect an answer but it's a thought.

Ali signed herself in tardy. The person said she spoke to the mother on the phone discussing the court date and the time. Time of 2:00 I guess. But anyways how often was Ali late for school so that the mother's voice would be recognized by this administrator. In the documentary it almost sounds like the administrator and Barbara were good friends ?

Good enough to recognize her voice ?

 

[sunshineray]

Was Ali chronically late for school ? Or was that an unusual circumstance that particular day?

I don't really expect an answer but it's a thought.

Ali signed herself in tardy. The person said she spoke to the mother on the phone discussing the court date and the time. Time of 2:00 I guess. But anyways how often was Ali late for school so that the mother's voice would be recognized by this administrator. In the documentary it almost sounds like the administrator and Barbara were good friends ?

Good enough to recognize her voice ?

Who knows, maybe they knew each other through the gifting tables? They seemed to be a pretty widespread occurance in that town

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yea,

That was creepy. Conway, "Who doesn't have a hammer? I carry a hammer in my car since my sister died." Than doesn't she say, "I wouldn't be good at using a knife, but I would be good at using a hammer."

Satch

A very unfortunate thing to say given the circumstances.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

I got the impression the detectives were absolutely screwing with Madison about the cigarette, male hamburg dna, and cell phone being turned off because all 3 pointed to Madison himself and they knew he was 'secretly' filming/recording them. The way the detective was like "you got one out of me" so casually. I get the feeling they do not have the best relationship and the PD was just getting tired of him trying trying to record them and squeeze evidence/information out of them.

This is always such a challenging dynamic. LE need to protect information that potentially only the Perp knows. While it seems as if they are being "difficult", it is necessary when the District Attorney assesses the case for trial. Informing the jury that a Perp was the only one who knew certain facts about the case is very powerful during trial.

A strong and cooperative bond between family and Law Enforcement can make all the difference in a case.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Manwel]

The poster who compiled the info wrote this...

"There's also part of the paragraph cut off that says something about "The body also was found with the panties and p...prior to my arrival." I wonder if this says that the panties and pajama pants were down prior to arrival of examiner?"

From what was posted it's not a given that the panties and pajamas were down.

No, it's not confirmed. But based on the paragraph I froze on my screen, the paragraph description of the body at the crime scene identified multiple items of clothing on the body ("pajama bottoms," shirt, "fleece top," "panties" as designated in paragraph) and then in a new sentence began the statement about "the body was also found with the panties and p... prior to my arrival." Based on the paragraph's existing use of "pajama bottoms" and "panties" to identify her clothing, the "panties and p..." continuation of the sentence _suggests_ "pajamas bottoms" is the next word in the sentence. As for what a crime scene analyst would document in this paragraph about "prior to arrival," it would be changes to the body at the scene. If the pants and underwear were down when she was found, and Ali and Conway pulled them up as a sister and daughter would do out of "decency," then the crime scene analyst would document "The body was also found with the panties and pajama bottoms down prior to my arrival."

Or, alternatively, it could say "panties and pajama bottoms up prior to my arrival" just to go on record about the placement when she was found. We don't know if it says up or down. Simply that the person documenting it took time to start a sentence about how panties were found at the scene. That sounds significant, and more likely to indicate something amiss with the body than confirming something normal about the body. Since the paragraph didn't make any other comments about the other clothing items that would confirm normal placement, such as "fleece shirt and undershirt fully clothed the torso," you can deduce that the detail about the panties is something note-worthy.

Also, something I'm curious about thinking about this now: Was she not wearing a coat that morning? If she was found with just a fleece top/shirt/pajamas and shoes on, then she either was extremely comfortable with the weather temperature that morning and didn't wear a coat, or the coat was already off when she was attacked.

 

[sunshineray]

No, it's not confirmed. But based on the paragraph I froze on my screen, the paragraph description of the body at the crime scene identified multiple items of clothing on the body ("pajama bottoms," shirt, "fleece top," "panties" as designated in paragraph) and then in a new sentence began the statement about "the body was also found with the panties and p... prior to my arrival." Based on the paragraph's existing use of "pajama bottoms" and "panties" to identify her clothing, the "panties and p..." continuation of the sentence _suggests_ "pajamas bottoms" is the next word in the sentence. As for what a crime scene analyst would document in this paragraph about "prior to arrival," it would be changes to the body at the scene. If the pants and underwear were down when she was found, and Ali and Conway pulled them up as a sister and daughter would do out of "decency," then the crime scene analyst would document "The body was also found with the panties and pajama bottoms down prior to my arrival."

Or, alternatively, it could say "panties and pajama bottoms up prior to my arrival" just to go on record about the placement when she was found. We don't know if it says up or down. Simply that the person documenting it took time to start a sentence about how panties were found at the scene. That sounds significant, and more likely to indicate something amiss with the body than confirming something normal about the body. Since the paragraph didn't make any other comments about the other clothing items that would confirm normal placement, such as "fleece shirt and undershirt fully clothed the torso," you can deduce that the detail about the panties is something note-worthy.

Also, something I'm curious about thinking about this now: Was she not wearing a coat that morning? If she was found with just a fleece top/shirt/pajamas and shoes on, then she either was extremely comfortable with the weather temperature that morning and didn't wear a coat, or the coat was already off when she was attacked.

I would agree. We can't know for sure, by what's visible in the documentary if BH's pajama bottoms and panties were up or down upon the arrival of the crime scene analyst.

There were quite a lot of details not discussed in the documentary series. I wonder if the private investigators have gotten further along proving events now that they have the files. I hope this family can get the answers they deserve. It's been too long to not have any closure.

 

[Manwel]

I would agree. We can't know for sure, by what's visible in the documentary if BH's pajama bottoms and panties were up or down upon the arrival of the crime scene analyst.

There were quite a lot of details not discussed in the documentary series. I wonder if the private investigators have gotten further along proving events now that they have the files. I hope this family can get the answers they deserve. It's been too long to not have any closure.

I will say Madison has been active on Twitter and Facebook, in fact he recently created a public figure profile on Facebook to manage updates and accept tips and such. He has commented that there are inconsistencies due to what is public information and information that has been kept from the public, most likely to support their investigation. So it's true, I don't think any viewer knows the full story of her murder, I imagine there is a lot more and this was just the major framing story he wanted to tell. Something tells me there's a whole list of suspects associated with the gifting tables.