DE DE - Bear, WhtFem 16-25, UP7097, pregnant, in laundry bag, Mar'67

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by CarlK90245, May 14, 2010.

  1. doecast

    doecast On Time Out

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hey everyone. I'm looking on doing a podcase and featuring this case. I've been researching and going through the thread. I know this is going to spark a lot of debate - but if there is one thing I need to know or one question I need to ask...what is it?
     


  2. Sweetluv

    Sweetluv Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Sadly enough, I dont think anyone reported her missing.
    But someone disposed of her body.....someone knows something!
     
  3. Sweetluv

    Sweetluv Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I think this poor woman was apart of the foster care system or runaway....no one looking for her...sad.
    But she was pregnant...did the father not know ...or is he the one who dumped her body?
    To leave her naked and placed on a construction pile...
    She needed medical care, which leads me to think someone was scared of doing so because of the abortion attempt. Ugh!!
     
    renee_ellis and Suglo like this.
  4. Bagpus

    Bagpus Active Member

    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Can the foetus be DNA tested?
     
    SurrealisticSlumbers likes this.
  5. Sweetluv

    Sweetluv Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    Trophy Points:
    93
    So they had a maternal DNA link to either Virgina or West Virginia and Tennessee. However, when interviewed, she was not recognized. Maybe she was given up for adoption and pregnancy covered up.
    Someone left her naked and dumped...and did not seek medical treatment for her.
    She is now buried in a DE potters field. Sad she has been without a name since 1967!
     
    renee_ellis, madamx and Alleykins like this.
  6. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    8,118
    Likes Received:
    4,034
    Trophy Points:
    113

    A "maternal link" means only that they had a mitochondrial DNA match, indicating that she and the match are related by a continuous chain of female ancestors. That could mean that they share mothers or 10th great grandmothers. So unless that mitochondrial match was connected by a common mother or maternal grandmother, it is unlikely that they knew each other.
     
    Snoopster, Al Ka, MadMcGoo and 11 others like this.
  7. Sweetluv

    Sweetluv Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Thank you Carl for clarification!
    I live in Delaware so this case is close to my core.
     
  8. Sweetluv

    Sweetluv Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Carl...I know at one point, you were in touch with Hal Brown.
    Do you know if a sample was taken from the fetus....maybe a DNA connection to the father?
     
  9. Susikatze

    Susikatze Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Accurate and well explained. Imho MtDNA is useless for UID identification unless you know who to compare them to. Best example, I share the same mtDNA haplogroup with Merovingian Queen Arnegonde, who died 1400 years ago. Is she closely related to me? Nope. She is not even a direct ancestress. Our last common female ancestress could have lived 10.000 years ago.

    It is just the oldest DNA research technique that is around, id say about 15-20 years. Most famous case that was solved through it was the Romanoff Czar family. But the ones who made the ID knew who to compare them to and had a suspicion.

    For a completely unknown UID it is useless. You need a full autosomal test.

     
    Friday Fan, Al Ka, bettyboop and 6 others like this.
  10. ntt1

    ntt1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    2,128
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Indeed. It could be a useful tool in conjunction with FGG though, as explained in a recent ISHI blog post from a DDP volunteer: Mama's Baby, Papa's Maybe: How Misattributed Parentage and Other Challenges Can Complicate Your Investigative Genetic Genealogy Case - ISHI News
     
    Al Ka, taramarie and Susikatze like this.
  11. Susikatze

    Susikatze Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Agree. It can rule out all lines that are not direct maternal.
     
    victoriarobinson642 likes this.
  12. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    8,118
    Likes Received:
    4,034
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, I do not know. I do know they got her DNA from a sample of her heart tissue that had been kept in cold-storage for nearly 50 years. But I don't know if they kept anything from the fetus. I don't even know if the fetus had been removed prior to her death.
     
    Snoopster, Al Ka, renee_ellis and 3 others like this.
  13. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    8,118
    Likes Received:
    4,034
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The X chromosome is more useful for analyzing maternal ancestry in FGG, because if two persons have a matching X chromosome, they can not be related by a chain of two or more consecutive male ancestors.

    The reason is as follows:
    A male is XY, and a female is XX.
    A father passes his X chromosome to his daughters, and his Y chromosome to his sons.
    A mother passes one of her two X chromosomes to her child, regardless of gender.

    In the case of Grandmother >>> Father >>> Daughter, the daughter will get one of the paternal grandmother's X chromosomes that passes by way of the father.
    In the case of Grandmother >>> Father >>> Son, the son will get the father's Y, and one of the mother's X chromosomes. The X passed from Grandmother to father cannot pass to the son.

    So an X chromosome cannot pass through two or more consecutive males in the line of descendancy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    Snoopster, Al Ka, renee_ellis and 4 others like this.
  14. Susikatze

    Susikatze Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Also from my understanding, there was no fetus present anymore. Otherwise they would not have gotten the idea of "botched abortion". But you can tell that there was a recent pregnancy from the size and structure of the uterus. It keeps that way for several weeks after a miscarriage/abortion, even at an earlier stage of pregnancy.

    There is an interesting case from 20 years ago about a young woman in Germany who was found in her burnt apartment. It was soon clear she had met with foul play because her tonguebone was broken (indicates strangulation) and someone had poured gasoline over her before she was set aflame.
    Her uterus was intact, there was no fetus present, but shape and structure indicated a pregnancy of 10 weeks. They found minuscule amounts of fetal DNA in the remains of chorionic vili that were still buried in the uterine wall.
    They found out the woman had undergone an abortion 2 weeks prior to her death and they checked all acquaintances of her. They found a man who denied having had a relationship with her. His DNA was a match to the fetal DNA and he was identified as a short affair the woman had. She did not want to continue the relationship due to his abusive nature and he killed her.

    Long story short, if they preserved uterine tissue, it may be possible to isolate fetal DNA, even if there is no fetus left.
     
  15. Springrain

    Springrain Who was the 1980 Ventura County Jane Doe?

    Messages:
    2,851
    Likes Received:
    4,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm lost - if there was an unsuccessful botched abortion attempt, wouldn't the fetus still be there, unless it had been posthumously removed? Or was it a successful abortion that she just died from? I'm confused about this aspect.
     
    MadMcGoo and Sweetluv like this.
  16. Susikatze

    Susikatze Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Trophy Points:
    93
    It is not clear from what is published.
    There is no mention of the fetus anywhere. They would have done an autopsy on it as well if it was there. I mean, 3-4 months of pregnancy is substantial enough.
    Maybe Carl has more information?
     
  17. Susikatze

    Susikatze Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I think that old post clarifies it. The fetus was present and removed and autopsied. But apparently not preserved as evidence as her heart tissue was (or maybe it was but got lost).
     
  18. Melt71

    Melt71 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    4,391
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @othram was there any interest in genetic genealogy on LE’s part, even if they may not have been interested in engaging yr company?
     
    Friday Fan, MadMcGoo, annemc2 and 2 others like this.
  19. ntt1

    ntt1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    2,128
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I think at this point I'd be very surprised if many of these high profile longtime cold cases have not engaged with genetic genealogy yet (though maybe this is a bit naive). It's been around long enough, with enough successes, for the agencies to know what it is. We just won't hear about it until they are solved.
     
  20. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,605
    Likes Received:
    7,581
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This case was one of the first forensic genetic genealogy cases I recall. Only the relatives investigators found and contacted had no idea who she was. And they never disclosed how close the relationship was, only that it was maternal.

    What I wonder is if they go in every once in a while and check for closer matches than they had before.
     
    renee_ellis, MadMcGoo and Sweetluv like this.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice