Discussion in 'Deaths of Male College Students/The River Killers' started by christine2448, Jun 27, 2009.
Was there ghb found in his autopsy? I get the feeling this death could have likely been accidental.
Below is the most recent article I've been able to find. "No signs of foul play"--so difficult for me to know what to believe because that seems to be what BPD states in nearly all cases of young college-age men found dead without obvious signs of having suffered a violent attack. That said, I agree that this case does have fewer similarities to many of the other cases in which the victims were found in a body of water after leaving a bar. I'm glad that the investigation was still ongoing as of April 14th. MOO.
Wentworth community remembers 19-year-old Max Carbone - The Huntington News
Detectives from the Boston Police Department, or BPD, currently believe the circumstances of his death show no signs of foul play, though their investigation is still ongoing.
Yea it's pretty hard to tell with law enforcement these days. There may very well have been foul play involved in Max Carbone's death, who knows, but if the investigation is still ongoing, then it's possible that the BPD could actually be putting in a thorough effort this time. This would give me all the more reason to believe that if this is a homicide case, that it is most likely unrelated to the modus operandi being discussed in this forum. Because if there's one thing we know, it's that police do not seem to go near any case related to this pheonomenon.
Just read back through a lot of the posts about the Smiley Face Killers and I do think some of the cases are definitely related and some are not.
The one thing I read which I tend to agree with is there could be a traveling group as part of their job that could be involved in some of the killings. A traveling theatre group could be one such group that may have had a small set of their employees that came up with their plan to add sick excitement to their lives as they get stuck in certain large cities for maybe weeks at a time.
They may have started to do this with just joking around about it and as time went on and their lives became very boring in their off-time being stuck in major cities where bar hopping was about their only entertainment. Almost like it was just a sick fantasy at first as they may have joked about wanting to kill certain young college kids out having a good time while they were a little older and resented the young kids being silly at the bars. Once they actually committed their first murder and got away with it, then they decided they needed a "sign" or something to be left at the scene to get credit for the killings as they did them in different cities wherever their tour group would be stuck at. Thus, the smiley face spray painted signs became their "thing".
It would explain some of the same sort of killings happening in different major cities. A tour group of some sort like a Dinner Theatre acting group or an outdoor theatre acting group like Shakepeare in the Park was mentioned somewhere I had read. Especially if an acting tour group was performing any sort of play that involved acting out a murder. The "murder" theme of what they were doing may have played a part in how it developed into real life murder.
For the cases that we suspect are really linked to the SFK it would be interesting to see if we can find out if any sort of touring group of performers was in that city at the time of the first day of disappearance. That may be one thing to pursue.
Of course it would not account for all the cases because most of us agree not all are related and I am pretty sure there would be some copy cat killers too where they painted the smiley face to throw off LE to think it was tied to the "other real smiley face" group.
And of course some are real accidents too so it makes it difficult to tie in which cases could be attributed to the main group that really did become a serial killer group of about 4-5 people. They have probably swore to secrecy within their group and that would explain why no leaks or admissions came out from the real group of SFKs.
And I suspect as the killings became more news worthy these original SFK group probably agreed to stop altogether because they knew they had been very close to getting caught.
When listening to the stories of the couple survivors who feel they were targeted but survived and ended up near water , there is enough detail provided that they seem very genuine to me and I think they really did encounter the SFKs and are lucky to be alive.
Those are my thoughts so far about this case and I do hope some of the unsolved cases can someday be solved.
Interesting theory. It got me thinking. Instead of multiple killers belonging to a single travelling group, and acting together, might there be individual killers linked by an Internet fantasy website on the dark web? That would explain why similar deaths occur throughout the country. Some may even travel to college communities further from home on their days off from work to lure victims to their deaths, or do so while travelling for work or on vacation. They could share their fantasies and experiences with each other online, which would account for the similarities in the deaths. Just a thought.
I noticed that a lot have the same square faces. For what's it worth.
This got me thinking about Brady Oestrike , he met his known victims through craigslist in 2014. LE does not believe he had any other victims, but I think his MO suggests he has done this before. A map found in his basement was marked with pins. Do the points on the map match up with any other crimes?
Here are some other possible connections that I have been pondering:
Brady Oestrike purchased a home within 2 miles of the workplace of Todd Geib while he was employed there. Working for the power company, he could have been working in the orchard/lake area which is very private, but also crisscrossed with power lines that go right along lake Ovidhall. This could explain how he knew about the lake, although he wasn't from the area. Brady kept his vicitims in a dog crate which would explain why there are no signs of biding or restraints. Oestrike had prescription medications in the crime scene photos, could he be the source of the antidepressants? Maybe they would not be prescribed at the same time, but usually patients try more than one medication before they find one that works. This could explain why he had 2. Utility workers sometimes carry orange marking spray paint. Seeing a utility truck pulled off the road in any location near power lines doesn't look suspicious.
Any thoughts or does anyone know of evidence that could rule him out or ?
I don't think the Craigslist killer had one victim...I agree with you there, but I don't know if there is proof any of the people used Craigslist for services that we know of or if that info is available to link some of the cases...I know in other cases they would be completely unrelated most likely however it did make me think of a couple other "Craigslist killer" cases and that might be something completely different to look at...there might be some connection that way or the case with Glieb may have just been good timing and may have been wrongly categorized on one killers part...I don't know.
What both ideas might in common is the dark web as a way groups share information to replicate crime scenes to make it look connected...and maybe actually connect them with evidence...and have people/groups working togeather in several places throughout the country. The groups may actually be geogrphically close enough to one another to help one another moving evidence out of juristictions and even having the crimes themselves take place over multiple jurisdictions since they (in most cases) seem to take place over a significant time period.
The John and Michael Carr connections to Berkowitz are fascinating. I forget exactly how they died, but both Carr brothers were murdered/died suspicious deaths.
I believe in the multiple shooter theory. Maury Terry's book has some pretty interesting points. I'll have to revisit it soon and post some quotes on the matter.
I also think the killers had knowledge of and used the underground tunnel system.
I made a name so I could post on this wall. I am 29 and have gone to college and graduated and was faced with many different situations that could have resulted in the devastation like the men here. I also had friends that were very wild and I noticed some of their habits as well. I believe there are SEVERAL things at play here that end up in somebody dieing in the river.
I believe that ALL of these deaths ARE the result of foul play.
The drugs in the system is the dead give away that this is foul play. The guys ending up in rivers are trying to make new friends that have and are willing to do the drugs with them. Although the people with the drugs tend to be ANTI establishment or rebellious to a point that the person ending up dead in the river is lacking experience in the new friend's group underground drug inhibited lifestyle. A lot of the victims seem to be down low homosexuals according to the underground lifestyle group and are being killed by groups of friends that have homosexuals in their friend group and are not down low or closeted. That seems to be the significance of the smiley face because they really do not care that a person who wanted to hide their real self to them wound up dead and the homosexuals who did not hide their real self did not end up dead. Go figure.
The group that murders by throwing people in the river claim to be humble and will humble (kill) their victims if they do not approve of their lifestyle and are not conforming into their group as expected while the person being murdered is said to be too proud of themselves and often times looked down upon for not admitting their homosexual tendencies. It's like a group of homosexuals shaming a straight person for wanting to do drugs and be friends with them. I totally believe the Shakespeare in the Park stuff because one of my friends got put in a ICU by male cheerleaders at a McDonalds because he called them faggots. Not something you would expect from a group of male cheerleaders. And that is primarily the reason for the deaths. It's totally unexpected that somebody would want to kill a person who has done well in school is good looking and is said to have a bright future. But the people doing the murdering know the world isn't a perfect place and chances are people like them will end up ******* their life up one way or another. I also believe that this only happens in low to lower middle class people. Because they are often mixing with people who come from unstable and bad backgrounds more than the upper or privileged class of people. It's a crime of opportunity in my eyes.
I also believe there is a serial killer who is traveling for work. I believe he does short stints and is relatively homeless but drives a vehicle that has a navigation system. The navigation system is a great way to find the bodies of water he plans to dump his victims in. I also believe he checks into a hotel on the river and exercises up and down the walk path before he does his crime to familiarize himself with the river and gauge how heavily trafficked the walk path is. I have ventured across country and have checked into hotels on rivers and bodies of water and have parked my vehicle in a park next to the lake to save myself from paying city parking. While on my jog around the walk path I saw a black dude doing the same thing... Jogging the walk path. And when I came back to my vehicle in the dark park by the water I also saw a black dude in a BMW X5 parked RIGHT NEXT TO ME. The friggin parking lot at this park was HUGE but he wanted to park right next to me obviously for potential robbery or abduction. He didn't leave his vehicle and I jumped in mine locked the doors and left.
Do what you're suppose to do and you wont be killed. End up messing around with the wrong group of people thinking you're going by undetected is not true. Especially in groups of younger people. You will be profiled and exploited by a group of people you're letting your guard down for so you can become friends. Chances are they don't want to be your friend so get your drugs and leave. Don't get your drugs and immediately think these are your new friends. They will not like that about you and will always see you in a different light than the group of people you met them through. Street smarts in college goes a long way when you're doing drugs with your friends. It's also something most of the victims do not have. I do not agree with it but its a reality that ALL of these dead people have overlooked.
I also grew up around a lake that has a lake path around the entire lake. My friends have told stories how they have walked miles on the lake path hammered drunk to get back home. I have seen them covered in mud and everything from a long trek on a narrow lake path at night. They never fell in the water and there is no history of anybody falling into the water even though it has been traveled many times by drunks choosing to walk home rather than drive.
It could also be like a uber driver driving from city to city driving for uber. He could easily say "we're going to pick up another party before we drop you off OK?" And then some how the driver takes him to a location where a person or several people he thinks will be jumping in the car open the door and pull him out and take him to their location or they transfer the victim to a van where they take him to their location. The uber driver probably drives a SUV or BMW like I said and makes enough money to check into a hotel at night but is coming and going from heavily populated areas like universities and college towns.
Body Found Along American River Bike Trail, Police Say
Alex Holden, missing son of 2 Greene County judges, found deceased
I posted a similar theory but using one as a taxi driver...in Boston back in the late 90s there was a man going into bars and buying girls drinks and spiking them with ghb and later posing as a cab driver offering to drive them home and then assaulting them.
This is what I think is most likely explanation for the geographic spread currently.. The first "smiley face" comes up in 1997. The "world wide web" was growing at the same time.