Deception

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Jayelles, Apr 12, 2007.

  1. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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  3. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I wonder if John Ramsey's constant smirk, and licking of the lips, means anything? Of course, I don't need a link for me to know that HE is a liar. And what about the shaking of the head up and down (yes), when asked if he killed his daughter? When he meant to shake it from side to side (no)... That sure seems like a deception sign to me. Do you know of a website where the Ramsey's body language is analyzed???
     
  4. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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  5. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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    5/6 years ago I made some posts about "the lying face". I'd watched a documentary about a method of lie detection which involved studying micro-movements of certain facial muscles around the eyebrows and mouth. These are so fleeting that they are practically imperceptible in real time and so the interrogators must record them and play them back a frame at a time. The psychologist who did this research was called Paul Ekman and he called them micro-expressions. It was fascinating because they showed clips of people being interviewed and there was nothing obvious about their expressions, yet when the video was replayed in slow motion - there were the micro-expressions - a completely different expression so fleeting that you'd miss it in a blink and yet it was there.


    In the programme, they put the method to the test on the programme and got the psychologists to find out which of three people had taken money. However, the test was set up to trip the psychologist up because two people were lying and not one as was expected.

    My memory is a bit hazy on the details of the interviews, but the guinea pigs didn't fool the test - the psychologist accurately reported that it seemed that two of the interviewees were being deceptive.


    More...


    http://www.gladwell.com/2002/2002_08_05_a_face.htm

    Here's another website and if you follow the BBC link on it, you can take an online test to see how good you are at spotting fake smiles. I surprised myself and scored 16/20.

    http://www.lifetrainingonline.com/bl...etect-lies.htm
     
  6. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Yeah, they made a mistake with the "Sir". But the rest of it is right on...

    From the link that you posted:


    1. Throughout the interview with John Ramsey, he keeps smiling. It wasn't a genuine, I'm- happy-smile. It wasn't a nervous smile. It was a strange, deceptive smile. It was inappropriate in timing -- almost as if the smile is expressing his true feelings -- that he is so happy 48 Hours is doing this show because they are pointing the finger away from him. It's like he is so thrilled with it, he can't contain it. I find John Ramsey making this smile throughout the majority of his interview. It bothers me more than a little. There is no logical explanation for it.

      An innocent man would not be joyous thinking about finding the killer of their daughter. He would more than likely be mad at the whole scenario, tired of being treated so badly by the media that there would be hints of anger - a truly felt emotion -- that would not flee in time upon reflection. There would be a desire to get resolve -- to find the true killer - because it would be haunting to know that killer is still out there potentially killing other children. None of these emotions would make a true victim of such a heinous crime smile. So, when I don't see any normal expressions -- and I see expressions that are out of place -- I'm on alert.
    This is the way that I feel about it too. A deceptive smile...
     
  7. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    it's the same way on the youtube video he and Patsy are on..his smile is a 'we got away with it...don't worry' kind of smile.
     
  8. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Are you talking about the video of him smiling, while Patsy is crying on his shoulder? He says a few words to her...I expect that they are..."Patsy, honey..why are you crying? You should be happy like I am, that we got away with it". But, its a tribute video, and there is music in the background, so you can't hear what he is saying. But, that would be MY guess.
     
  9. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    If you want to study body language and eye movements in liars...children make great subjects.

    When I catch my nephew in a lie, his eyes go up, down, side to side. He looks away or stares down at his feet. It's too funny at times and I have to turn away or stifle a laugh.
     
  10. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    yes,that's the one.he looks like a sneaky lil devil in it,imo.
     
  11. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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    I was really interested in one article which I read. I differentiated between straight recall of facts and the cognitive process which would be involved if you had to work something out (we call these Knowledge and Understanding v Problem Solving in Scotland). The eyes move to different places when the two different processes are used.

    We tried it out on Tootsie at the weekend. Ask her a sum and the eyes roll upwards, ask her what she had for lunch and the eyes roll upwards - this is what she does when she's remembering a fact. But when we gave her a riddle-me-re, her eyes moved to the right. It worked every time. My Hubby is a bit of a sceptic when it comes to psychology but he was suitably impressed with this.

    Well, apparently, if a person is lying, they must apply the second process. So, first of all, it's essential to establish a person's "baseline" behaviour - Tootsie will roll her eyes up if she's going to tell the truth and she'll look to the right if she's working something out - inclusing a lie (sussed!). Therefore, interrogators who are trained in reading body language will start off by asking certain questions to establish a person's baseline.

    What about the Ramsey interviews?

    JR 1997
    The detectives started off asking him to describe events from the time when they left the Whites

    PR 1997
    Lots of short response, factual questions about which school she went to and what was the name of the last book she read.

    JR 1998
    Interview starts with Lou Smit discussing the police position with regard to the investigation (Smit is supportive of the police). LS asks John about their non-co-operation. It's more of a discussion. Smit points out why they have to clear the Ramseys (because if they ever arrest an intruder, the intruder's defence will be that the Ramseys did it).

    PR 1998
    Tom Haney asks PR about medication and then asks Patsy to start off my telling him whatever she can about Jonbenet's death.

    JR 2000
    M Kane starts off by asking John Ramsey how active he's been in the investigation since the last interview.

    PR 2000
    Kane started off by asking Patsy about the Ramsey's own investigation of the murder. It would be pretty difficult to analyse this interview of Patsy's because Lin Wood interrupts so frequently that the "train" of the interview is buried under a mountain of Lin Wood's objections/points of information and comments.

    In Summary - the only interview which *could* be applying body language analysis is Patsy's 1997 interview.

    NOTE: In many of the above interviews, the investigators point out to the Ramseys that any intruder's defence is going to be that the parents did it and that this is why it is crucial for the police to throoughly investigate the Ramseys and to have the answers to many questions on record so that they can be prepared to interrogate any intruder. Although they claim to understand this, Lin Wood counters it by saying that his clients will be prepared to answer any questions IF and WHEN an intruder is arrested. How can this be a desire to aid the investigation whilst memories are fresh? This is precisely why the Ramseys are viewed in such a negative light by so many people.

    Thankfully, this wouldn't happen in the UK where police have the autonomy to charge someone with obstruction of justice if they refuse to be interviewed by police.
     
  12. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I agree. Some of the posters that posted messages on youtube, thought so too. Did you read some of the comments? I would like to knock that stupid grin off of his face. And there is thread on FFJ that is dedicated to him sticking out his tongue a million times, during a televised interview. They call him "lizard lips" over there (FFJ).
     
  13. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Yeah, like THAT'S ever going to happen. In ten a half years, they haven't arrested an intruder, because an intruder did not do it. IMO
     
  14. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    rofl,yes,and did you notice that no one's ever favorited their interviews and such?I think that says a lot about public opinion of them.I left some lovely(not) reviews myself,altho I don't think on that particular one.
    have you ever seen some of the reviews of DOI?it's pretty much the same way.I can't believe they wrote that nonsense and then expected the public to just swallow it whole.JR practically calls Melinda's finance a liar(IMO) when he describes going over to them and telling them JB was found dead.
     
  15. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    LOL, I will have to go onto youtube and read your "lovely" Ramsey reviews. I believe that the majority of the public, believe that the Ramsey's killed their daughter. I know that some people say..."OH NO...the Ramsey's would NEVER kill their own chld...thats just impossible". Well, lets take a look at the Preacher's wife...I believe that her name is Mary. I cannot remember where it happened, but her trial just started. The meek and mild mannered wife of a pastor, shot and killed HIM. Nobody would have EVER THOUGHT that she would have done such a thing. Its an evil world that we live in, people kill their children and/or their spouses EVERY SINGLE DAY.
     
  16. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Y'all have to go to FFJ and read SkankySue's comments about BORG.

    She says that we are saying Burke suffers from "Autopsy"!

    Bwaaahaahaa!
     
  17. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    LOL...I think that they meant autism. That's TOO funny. I read that a couple of days ago on ffj.
     
  18. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    yes,you mentioned that awhile back..I'd forgotten about that.I was married in SC,and we go on vacation there at least once a yr.
     
  19. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Let me guess...Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head.
     
  20. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Bill O'Reilly's friend Tonya Reiman would do it if we all asked him really nicely.
     
  21. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    Yes ! MB is my fav though.Charleston is nice too.
     

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