Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[travelgal]

Are we still dicussing the possibility of a fight on weekend June 7/8th and June 15th?

I am starting to think there was a possibility of a fight on Memorial Day.
But we have no ping records to work with.

You are probably correct, ibyoungr. Dysfunctional families generally do have arguments on holidays and other special occassions! :crazy:

 

[cecybeans]

At some point in time, CA discovered those pictures of KC partying and they had a blow up (according to AH). I'd assume they could be the "no clothes party" pics that were taken on Memorial Day weekend (Memorial Day 2008 was 5-26 and the party was 5-24 IIRC). She may have said she needed to "work" that weekend. Any time after she downloaded those pics into her photobucket could have given rise to that, so that might have been some time the last week of May, first week of June. We might be looking at an accumulation of spats here that may or may not have culminated in a huge fight at the end on June 15.

I would think CA had some resentment over the vacation thing for several reasons. One, she had mentioned to the people at work they were going to all three spend some quality girl time together during her vacation - sounds to me like a BS story KC told her mother to get her off her back - and it turned out she did nothing but watch Caylee alone it seems. Add to that she got snubbed on her birthday. I would imagine that the dropping Caylee off in the afternoon at CA's work phenomenon picked up around before and after that time as well. And somewhere in here, or even earlier, is the check situation with SP. It all sounds like several small squalls that could have led to a perfect storm.

It also sounds like yelling and bickering was pretty much de rigeur in that household. CA said to her coworkers KC was yelling at her dad even more than she was lately. It doesn't sound like very many days passed without something highly unpleasant going on.

If all these culminated in one or more big fights, then it would show me that KC may have done something out of immediate spite in the heat of passion. But if these arguments were simply typical - or were not as large as we suppose, then it shows perhaps that KC was more methodical and premeditated and did not act out of a sudden response. It would be helpful to know if their behavior toward each other was unusual or simply common SOP.

 

[beach]

Thanks for bringing that up, EU.

That actually happened the week prior, IIRC. Cindy headed up to Mt. Dora Friday PM after work 5/30 and returned home Saturday PM 5/31, IIRC. I'm afraid I don't have the time of her return, and the EPass records don't go back that far.

You know I think you are the master sleuther so I'm confused...
After reading your post I listened for the 3rd time today to the first part of CA's 8/1 interview and she doesn't say anything about going to Mt. Dora on 5/30-5/31. She confirms the 6/7-6/8 visit and the Father's Day visit 6/15.

however, I only listened to the first 20 min, so maybe she changed her story in the latter part of the interview.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'd be more than happy to help out with the weather info (if ya still need it) etc. Though I am sure I must have missed something along the way because I'm not grasping the relevence of a fight between Casey and Cindy in May.. (are ya'll thinking this is when "THE fight" took place? or is it in addition to the fight? are ya'll thinking May is when Casey bailed from the house and started her sleep-overs?) I'm hoping some kind soul might help me..

 

[BondJamesBond]

Soooo....

If I'm keepin' score...

We've pretty well drilled into the following:

6/7, 6/15, and I think we can take 5/24 out due to weather.​

...that leaves...

5/25, 5/26, then, 5/31*, 6/1, and 6/8, and 6/14

*5/31 Cindy was in Mt. Dora for some portion of the day...so...perhaps from her cell records her return time might be established and make this one easy to rule in vs. out?​

Could treat it like a toss up...pick a day...post that you'll work on it...then bring it back here when you're done....just a thought...FWIW.

ETA: I know IBY has been slavin' away on some...so...maybe a few of these are already done. What say ye' IBY?

 

[BondJamesBond]

You know I think you are the master sleuther so I'm confused...
After reading your post I listened for the 3rd time today to the first part of CA's 8/1 interview and she doesn't say anything about going to Mt. Dora on 5/30-5/31. She confirms the 6/7-6/8 visit and the Father's Day visit 6/15.

however, I only listened to the first 20 min, so maybe she changed her story in the latter part of the interview.

Thanks, beach. :wave: I've been workin' on Tony's cell pings offline and they've been a real challenge...so...let me go check the summary from BeanE I was referencing...be right back...

ETA: FWIW, Here's the summary post I have been referencing. I should have checked the case calendar...but quite frankly...I'm toast. Please consider givin' BeanE a shout if you think somethin' isn't quite right. Just to see if the source info is coming from different interviews...you know...the truth tends to repeat itself...so...I'm sure it'll all line up

 

[LCoastMom]

Brini, I'm thinking the marital battles and money situation were the family focus that drained George and Cindy and made it easier for Casey to get away with things.

I even think Cindy turned her head the other way to secure Casey as an ally against George. Cindy wanted the kids on her side. Remember when Cindy told George to STOP being a detective and NOT to check up on Casey?

After Cindy wrote to her mother and told her that she and George were staying together for the sake of the house, Cindy turned to her attention to "fixing" Casey. JMO

This makes a lot of sense, Cindy worked a stressful, full time job. Cared full time for Caylee, the rest of her energy was spent on George, letting KC slide.

If a huge bone of contention for Cindy was Geo's employment troubles, he had done a lot recently to remedy this. He was working regularly yet KC and Lee had continued their efforts to undermine him. This was something Cindy never should have allowed or encouraged, whatever his shortcomings he was still their father.

One of Cindy's coworkers has never heard of problems in the house except the problem of Geo and KC fighting! KC's behaviors were escalating, Geo was pushing back. Did Cindy wait too long to put her foot down with KC?

I think he struck a "nerve", & if he was referring specifically to June 15th, & CA knew it was another day,(maybe June9th), as they were all fixated on that date for awhile, she could now attack & nail him.

And, never forget, "Lying is not a Crime" The Word according to Cindy A.

CA knew it was another day or Cindy knows it is something that was only witnessed by two people and they aren't talking.

Could this fight be what KC was referring to in the jail vid when Cindy starts to ask her a question and KC cuts her off by saying "I haven't said anything". For a long time I thought this was being blown out of proportion. Looking back the expression on KC's face now makes me feel, KC has the upper hand in whatever she was talking about and she was letting Cindy know at that time her secret was safe.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I'd be more than happy to help out with the weather info (if ya still need it) etc. Though I am sure I must have missed something along the way because I'm not grasping the relevence of a fight between Casey and Cindy in May.. (are ya'll thinking this is when "THE fight" took place? or is it in addition to the fight? are ya'll thinking May is when Casey bailed from the house and started her sleep-overs?) I'm hoping some kind soul might help me..

Thanks, OLG. Nice of you to offer Just finished the weather info above, but, you might wanna 2x check me...

Yes - you've essentially captured it. Not so much that Casey bailed in May...but, trying to establish a clearer picture of when the fights may have occurred so as to determine what they might have been about and if perhaps the first fight was the bigger of the two.

One reason for trying to nail this better is that it helps support/detract from pre-meditation or the degree of it. For example...if THE bigger fight was the first one...then things just kept escalating and Casey may have started planning/plotting vs. the bigger fight being the second one...and things taking more of a crime-of-passion turn, IYKWIM.

We've taken a detailed look @ 6/15. Devon turned us on to what looked like a terrific indication that the big fight was 6/7 owing to Casey showing up @ Ricardo's w/ Caylee @ 11PM. But, after we sleuthed it out (esp. w/ Muzikman pointing out the EPass records had G&C not getting home from the beach until AFTER Casey had left the house that afternoon)...well...6/7 not so much.

Some nice focus on neighbor Jean C's accounts of 2 incidents...both on weekends...both on days when she was doing outdoor activities that would've required nice weather.

...hope that helps.

FWIW...I think I started this thread suggesting the latter fight might've been Sunday, 6/15 ~9:30PM. Now...based on Jean's account I'd hafta say it either happened @ 9AM that morning as Casey and Cindy were in the driveway about to go their separate ways...or Saturday 6/14. Also not to say that there wasn't one Sunday night...no idea...just sayin' that it wouldn't be one to line up w/ Jean's account.

...also forgot to mention the brief OT trip to see Hopespring Side Story contributing to the overall delinquency of the thread :bang:

 

[LCoastMom]

Wait... wait... wait... Hold up a minute here.
Seriously, you've got to ask yourself why the Sam Hill didn't LE hook that car up on the night of the 15th and seize it then? They left it in the A's custody for 24+ hrs? This is what annoys me more so than what GA did/didn't do!!

Ruby calm down!! LE's first priority was finding Caylee alive! They had no reason to immediately believe any harm had come to her and in those first 24 hours they did an amazing job proving everything KC said to be a lie.

It appears time wise they spent almost 3 hours, three separate times interviewing KC. They were all over town chasing down addresses she gave them for the invisi-nanny! There was a uniform officer at the house full time after the 3rd phone call. No one did anything to that car after LE was called.

Cindy and Yuri had this same argument after Cindy told the press the car sat for 2 days (a lie). LE was running in 13 directions looking for Caylee. The car was taken into custody shortly after KC.

 

[ibyoungr]

Saturday, May 24th Rainy day in the Anthony neighborhood
12:51AM-12:53PM Cloudy
1:53PM-2:20PM Rain=>Heavy T-Storms=>Light Rain
Casey goes to a party with Amy and Troy. First time she meets Tony.

Tony Lazarro interview July 22nd with Det. Edwards http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0923/17540075.pdf
Went to Daniel Howards Bday party at Chris Kokkinos’ place, where Tony’s his company was DJ’ing. Casey brought along 2 friends Amy Huzienga and Troy Brown. This is the night that Tony and Casey met. The first met on Facebook, because it stated she was a Valenica Student and she was hot. During the week of May 19th – 24th, Tony called Casey and she could not meet up with him because she was waiting for the kids to fall asleep. He wanted her to meet his friend Clint House and his girlfriend Maria. Tony stated “she couldn’t because she was with the nanny and her kids.”

Amy Huzienga July 23rd interview
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0925/17555307.pdf
“..obviously was going other places when she said she was at work.” “... party where Amy, Casey and Troy first meet Tony. Before the party, they were at Buffalo Wings in Waterford. The party was at the Villages on Science Drive. She states Tony was not DJ’ing. They were playing beer pong. Amy left after 45 minutes.”
Amy texts Casey
Your car is safe. Have fun. He is totally the hottest guy there. Sorry I'm such a bum! Darn sex I don’t remember making me tired!

Casey texts Amy
There is lots of good man meat here.
Casey texts Amy
Home! Bed!


Ric Morales interview July 25th with Det Edwards
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0925/17555348.pdf Page 7
“24th you were in Tampa?” Ric states “uh-hum…”

Sunday, May 25th Nice day no rain…
Casey wakes up at the Anthony home. Anything But Clothes Party at UCF area Caylee is at home with Grandma for the day per her audio interview Caylee was with them every Sunday in May./B]
10:51 AM Casey texts Amy
"So the cops came around 115 and broke up the party. How bittersweet."
Amy replies in text
"That sucks! I got home and fell asleep before I even figured out what was on Adult Swim. I was actually very tired. Have fun at least?"
10:56 AM Casey texts Amy
"It was a lot of fun. I'm glad I finally got to see Tony. He’s a really sweet guy. And we kicked butt at beer pong. 3 and 0. Did you have fun? I know you were exhausted."
Amy texts Casey
"Oh, yeah. That’s why I left when I did I was having fun but wanted to go before that stopped."
10:59 PM Casey texts Amy
Always a good idea. I'm still sleepy. 7 hours of great sleep!
Amy texts Casey
"I’m totally ready for today!"
11:01 AM Casey texts Amy
"Me too!"
Amy texts Casey
So I think I have a great idea for this tape thing. I just have to go to Walmart or someplace to get a cheap tank top and skirt. That way I can tape up and cut it off and make a door for myself. I realized I will have to pee at some point!"
1:21 PM Casey texts Amy
Ha ha that’s a great idea.
2:46 PM Casey texts Amy
"You will officially see the American flag in all its glory tonight."
Amy texts Casey
Nice! I'm going to go to Target to get the tank top. On sale for 6. Want to go with me? Or I can go there first.
2:50 PM Casey texts Amy
You going right after work?
Amy texts Casey
Unless I am getting you first
Amy texts Casey
Oh. And I have every intention of making out with a guy tonight. It’s my goal.
2:57 PM Casey texts Amy
You will make out with someone tonight! Done deal.

They continued some insignifcant texting until 6:49 PM.

Amy Huzienga July 23rd interview
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0925/17555307.pdf
“Didn’t know who hosted party.. run-in with a guy named Brandon..claimed she had a miscarriage. Very emotional. Amy and Troy went with Casey to the party in Casey’s car. Missing for an hour and a half.”After the case broke… Amy testifies in this interview on July 23rd… OSCO page 1058 Cindy discovered later that Casey was not working on May 25th but instead at the ABC party. Amy says that Cindy pretty much printed it off from a computer, in her face and said, “You’re at work? Huh? And that Cindy had been watching Caylee and Casey had said she was at work.. and it was the going out, the partying. The detective confuses Amy and asked if she (Caylee) was with the mom(he means Casey –Amy means Cindy) at the no clothes party. Amy said yes.. he said Caylee was? Amy meant, I know that was the night that picture was taken and she(Cindy) had been watching Caylee that night. Pretty much was like, “You’re at work, huh?

Monday, May 26th lovely nice day...
Cindy remembers BBQ in the backyard and that Caylee was there. Casey tells Amy she went into work at 6 Am and got off at noon. She tells Amy she is going out of town next week.

Cindy’s Aug 1st audio interview:
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Sideba...o_recordings_released_by_law_enforcement.html
Cindy was off Memorial Day. Caylee was home with her that Monday. Memorial Day.. Lee came over and they had a cookout that day before George went to work. Casey and Caylee must have been there. She is not with Ric and not with Tony.

 

[ibyoungr]

You know I think you are the master sleuther so I'm confused...
After reading your post I listened for the 3rd time today to the first part of CA's 8/1 interview and she doesn't say anything about going to Mt. Dora on 5/30-5/31. She confirms the 6/7-6/8 visit and the Father's Day visit 6/15.

however, I only listened to the first 20 min, so maybe she changed her story in the latter part of the interview.

At the 28:29 minute mark.. she irons out the two weekends. E Pass records have her going to the beach on June 7th with George.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I am also thinking June 1st, a Sunday a fight was even more likely than Memorial day or weekend.
June 1st, Cindy did not have to go anywhere.
It was the beginning of her vacation. She wanted Caylee.
Casey is annoyed. She has to find a way to look like she is working while her mom is around all the time.

More to come....

You really bring up a good point, Cindy being off of work all week must have really thrown a wrench in Casey's schuedule (schuedule of hanging out at the house all day and texting).... :boohoo:

 

[LCoastMom]

Thanks, OLG. Nice of you to offer Just finished the weather info above, but, you might wanna 2x check me...

Yes - you've essentially captured it. Not so much that Casey bailed in May...but, trying to establish a clearer picture of when the fights may have occurred so as to determine what they might have been about and if perhaps the first fight was the bigger of the two.

One reason for trying to nail this better is that it helps support/detract from premeditation or the degree of it. For example...if THE bigger fight was the first one...then things just kept escalating and Casey may have started planning/plotting vs. the bigger fight being the second one...and things taking more of a crime-of-passion turn, IYKWIM.

We've taken a detailed look @ 6/15. Devon turned us on to what looked like a terrific indication that the big fight was 6/7 owing to Casey showing up @ Ricardo's w/ Caylee @ 11PM. But, after we sleuth-ed it out (esp. w/ Muzikman pointing out the EPass records had G&C not getting home from the beach until AFTER Casey had left the house that afternoon)...well...6/7 not so much.

Some nice focus on neighbor Jean C's accounts of 2 incidents...both on weekends...both on days when she was doing outdoor activities that would've required nice weather.

...hope that helps.

FWIW...I think I started this thread suggesting the latter fight might've been Sunday, 6/15 ~9:30PM. Now...based on Jean's account I'd hafta say it either happened @ 9AM that morning as Casey and Cindy were in the driveway about to go their separate ways...or Saturday 6/14. Also not to say that there wasn't one Sunday night...no idea...just sayin' that it doesn't line up w/ Jean's account.

FWIW, just because Jean C didn't hear the fights at night, doesn't really give any incite as to whether they happened. Jean C was outside for both fights he witnessed. It's possible, even likely he wouldn't have heard fights happening when he was inside his house.

I think you've done an incredible job off of interviews, phone pings and now E pass. Don't discount your own findings off of someone else's memories that were 3 mos old and really only nailed the time to May or June, during the day!

 

[BondJamesBond]

FWIW, just because Jean C didn't hear the fights at night, doesn't really give any incite as to whether they happened. Jean C was outside for both fights he witnessed. It's possible, even likely he wouldn't have heard fights happening when he was inside his house.

I think you've done an incredible job off of interviews, phone pings and now E pass. Don't discount your own findings off of someone else's memories that were 3 mos old and really only nailed the time to May or June, during the day!

Thanks, MMB. Somewhere back in the deep dark recesses of the thread...someone was kind enough to bring a link of Jean's account over. I tried to be objective 'bout it and say that maybe the events she witnessed were just examples that tell us tensions between Casey & Cindy were on the rise at that time. As you suggest...we shouldn't read too much into it. I'm kinda thinking there's room for both...(fights Jean did and didn't witness) IOW, if there was a 6/15 ~9:30PM fight...then there should be at least 2 more for us to sleuth out.

 

[Marina2]

The "Diary of Days" blog of KC's, imo, relates directly to a fight with CA. It came four days after CA's infamous "My Caylee is Missing" post. The first words in KC's response to CA are:

"On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken."

I think when KC thought of the horror of what she did to Caylee (the worst of worst days) she consoled herself and justified her actions by remembering the words spoken. The words spoken were from CA's mouth and she knows they pushed KC over the edge.

There may be doubt as to when the fight occurred but to me there is no doubt that it was a fight, particularly what CA said during the fight, that unleashed a demon in KC. I'm sure there were several fights between KC and CA in this time frame but one in particular included some very ugly verbage from CA.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I have been doing a lot of looking at the calendar, pings and the thing that sticks out to me is the boyfriend change. Ricardo was more than willing to have Caylee stay over, apparently Tony was not. Casey turns almost manic when a guy is in the picture, the amount of time talking to, talking about the guy in her life, it seems to be her ONLY focus. It almost looks to be obsessive. Not that I am inserting a mental disorder into the mix, but the behavior is unreal, especially given the fact that she has a two year old to take care of ! There must be a little extra info from Tony that we haven't seen...I think he told Casey that she was free to spend the night, but Caylee wasn't. I wonder if Caylee's death had more to do with Tony than her problems with Cindy.

 

[Pink Panther]

I'm afraid that I disagree with you Searchfortruth...I don't believe that KC was particularly "enamoured" with TL. He was just the "next one"...She seemed to be quite capable of trolling from one guy to the next and securing herself "doubles" (like Will) as required. I think it was her freedom to troll that was most important to her and as Caylee got older and her (KC's) expectations expanded, this became more and more difficult for her...I don't believe for a second that she was "in love" with anyone but herself!

MOO

 

[gardenhart]

At the 28:29 minute mark.. she irons out the two weekends. E Pass records have her going to the beach on June 7th with George.

Not to quibble, but the e-pass would only show that someone went in that direction that day, right? Not whether George and Cindy were both in the car or exactly where they went?

 

[RubyB]

Ruby calm down!! LE's first priority was finding Caylee alive! They had no reason to immediately believe any harm had come to her and in those first 24 hours they did an amazing job proving everything KC said to be a lie.

It appears time wise they spent almost 3 hours, three separate times interviewing KC. They were all over town chasing down addresses she gave them for the invisi-nanny! There was a uniform officer at the house full time after the 3rd phone call. No one did anything to that car after LE was called.

Cindy and Yuri had this same argument after Cindy told the press the car sat for 2 days (a lie). LE was running in 13 directions looking for Caylee. The car was taken into custody shortly after KC.

MMBB,
LOL I'm not gonna have a coronary or anything, I was just reacting to Ripley's assertion that GA should be jailed for driving the "death car/crime scene" home as opposed to immediately notifying LE. My point being that LE didn't immediately recognize the evidential importance of the car, so why should GA be expected to?
But we're off topic, and we've been put on notice, so we should probably knock it off. Another day, another thread.

 

[NocturnalLady]

The "Diary of Days" blog of KC's, imo, relates directly to a fight with CA. It came four days after CA's infamous "My Caylee is Missing" post. The first words in KC's response to CA are:

"On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken."

I think when KC thought of the horror of what she did to Caylee (the worst of worst days) she consoled herself and justified her actions by remembering the words spoken. The words spoken were from CA's mouth and she knows they pushed KC over the edge.

There may be doubt as to when the fight occurred but to me there is no doubt that it was a fight, particularly what CA said during the fight, that unleashed a demon in KC. I'm sure there were several fights between KC and CA in this time frame but one in particular included some very ugly verbage from CA.

I had exactly the same thought when I read that in the diary entry.