Did JA get ambushed by Dr. Rickenbach?

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by ndrew, Jun 8, 2011.

  1. ndrew

    ndrew Member

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    Just watched the testimony of the FBI scientist Dr. Rickenbach and felt JA was surprised at the testimony - just did not seem like it went the way JA was expecting it to. Did any one else get this impression. I noticed that after the Dr. left the courtroom JA was right behind him and then the new male attorney with JB's office was right behind JA. What happened with this testimony?

    I think JA was expecting Dr. R. to come across a little more confident in his findings. It is not like JA not to be prepared , but something happened . Do we have a copy of Dr. R.'s report or was one never released. Do you think Dr. R. changed his testimony?
     
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  3. MaryB

    MaryB New Member

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    Not at all.

    The whole point was to show that there WERE levels of chloroform in the trunk when in a normal environment there shouldn't have been. I don't think the chemistry guy was as well spoken as Vass, but the point came across. Even trace amounts are unusual since chloroform dissipates so quickly thus there must have been a boatload of chloroform in that trunk to even show up in his tests.

    Jose would like to think of it as a win, but I don't even think he understands that the LOW levels, in and of itself, was a huge blow to the defense. These tests were two completely different tests with different variables. Ignorance is bliss. I really question if he actually passed the bar. How can he not know how to spell iron or magnesium. I wonder if he paid someone to take the test for him?????? He has the hardest time understanding the most basic things.
     
  4. Jetaime

    Jetaime New Member

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    I don't know about all that, but IMO he wasn't a great witness for the state. There were a few things Dr. R said that was damning to the defense, but I'm worried the jurors won't note the difference between: Dr R checking for choloroform levels, and Dr V's testimony to *normal* chloroform levels in a typical decomposonal state. Though each study may have composed of different results, they were testing for two different things. I hope the jurors were able to follow along. Also, I think Dr. R was very confident in his findings. He answered as truthful as he can given the lapse of time between the sampling & his testing. He didn't have a dog in this fight, so to speak....and he stated as much. All in all, I don't think he helped the SA much {{{IMO}}}}---- if I were a juror.
     
  5. MissJames

    MissJames a yellowflutterby changed my life : )

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    But will the jury get it?
     
  6. okiedokietoo

    okiedokietoo New Member

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    I thought the whole testimony was off until the end of JB's cross and JA's redirect. I was still on Dr. Vass. I was comparing Dr. Rickenbach's testimony to Dr. Vass' testimony. JB was asking questions that made it sound as if the two Doctors tested the same things and the same way, more or less. I got caught up in JB's deceptive word play. Bless the poor Jurors but thank goodness JA straightened it all out in his redirect.
     
  7. MaryB

    MaryB New Member

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    Not sure if you got a chance to watch Ashton's re-direct, but, BAM, he got it out there that chloroform shouldn't have even come up in any tests considering the box was unsealed and that chloroform dissipates rather quickly. Plus the fact that the variables were completely different.
     
  8. MaryB

    MaryB New Member

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    I think so.

    The re-direct straightened everything out and left the last impression. There are quite a few smarties on that jury who probably picked up Jose's trickery as well. And you have to remember that closing argument pretty much sums up everything the jury may have missed.
     
  9. katydid23

    katydid23 Verified Juanette

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    I just hope the jury stuck with the testimony long enough to catch the final redirect.
     
  10. MaryB

    MaryB New Member

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    I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal and I'm a big worrier. Just wait until the computer forensics guy comes in with the chloroform searches. In fact, the computer forensics guy thinks Casey deleted the chloroform searches the day Casey was interviewed by Melich which shows consciousness of guilt. You have to read this article:

    http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/06/06/caylee-anthony-case-consciousness-of-guilt/
     
  11. okiedokietoo

    okiedokietoo New Member

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    Wasn't that cool how JA took control! For a moment, when JB was asking questions, I thought I had gone mad. I was listening to the trial, watching it and doing paperwork. Maybe my multi-tasking should only be two things......which really means, no multi-tasking.
     
  12. Jetaime

    Jetaime New Member

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    Yes, and I noted that. :) I just hope the jurors did, also. The percentage was so low compared to Dr A Vass, who isn't a chemist simply testing for chloroform. While I and (and I'm sure you/most of you) know this, does the jury realize this isn't just 'junk science', and that these are two totally different studies??? Only 2 jurors worry me... and one is all it takes. Someone please revive me! :sick:
     
  13. katydid23

    katydid23 Verified Juanette

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    WOW. Just WOW. Now I cannot wait until the forensics guy testifies. Wow.
    If he can paint the picture of Casey 'erasing' her entire FoxFire History with Yuri sitting in the next room, at 4;30 in the morning....wow.
     
  14. Just Jayla

    Just Jayla New Member

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    If they're not already, Quantico ought to think about a small body farm there-The part of the base where FBI is located is a huge wooded area surrounded by acres and acres of training fields and forest.
    Then, maybe the FBI can catch up with these "non-forensic, just a researcher" types down in Tennessee. I put way more stock into Dr. Vass's results, and I think that's where the comparison is naturally drawn, between FBI and Dr. Vass's methods and results, as you and I both made the comparison.
     
  15. Zoe Bogart

    Zoe Bogart Let's not ask for the Moon, we have the Stars

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    I would think Casey and Lee were far more techno-savvy than Cindy or George, especially since Cindy herself claimed she didn't know that much about computers, and needed Lee's help setting up her MySpace account, although Lee said he didn't help her.

    We know George knew how to get scammed online but any dummy can do that, so that doesn't really tell us his computer skill.

    I'm basing my thoughts on the younger generation having far less trouble and a lot more computer knowledge than the 50+ generation. Can't tell you how long it took me to gain my skills (I'm one of the older crowd) but since computers and word processors are easier to use than typewriters in correcting errors, I was willing to learn. I amaze myself at what I can do with computers, including making repairs.

    That being said, Casey was just 22 in 2008, obviously had computer classes in school, so I would think she could move around the inner-workings with lightning speed. Yuri could have been three feet away and not realized she was destroying (or trying to) precious evidence, thinking she was trying to "help" get him all the facts needed.

    I would expect the computer to have simple searches for ZFG, Casey's imaginary friends, and so forth after Casey went joy riding with LE - searches by George or Cindy.

    Interesting they would have an "owner' account plus a "casey" account on that computer, with Casey using "owner" and the others using "casey" but I guess we all set our computers differently. The owner account was locked via password and the casey account was open to the family.

    As said above, the computer forensic information should be interesting, ve-rrrr-y interrrr-esting. I'm looking forward to it. :D

    I missed Dr. Rickenbach's testimony, I need to catch up. One thing I noticed, though, I'm not very scientific, but most everything I've heard so far has been explained in simple enough terms for me to grasp, I'm hoping the jurors are understanding, too. My biggest gripe is Jose (surprise, surprise) and how he tries to confuse and/or is confused himself. He may start off fine and get the answers he wants, then he keeps going and I get lost, get a headache, and have the beginnings of a nervous breakdown. He goes too far and I'm sure he loses many people along the way. Thankfully JA is allowed to get up and help us make sense of it again.
     
  16. ami

    ami New Member

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    No, I don't think it was an ambush. JA knew what he was going to say to start with, which is why he was so careful to ask first how the samples were packaged and if that was the standard way Rickenbach usually received samples. JA got the info out via questioning that Richenbach didn't expect any chloroform at all considering the packaging, but did indeed find some.

    The guy was simply not the excited, excitable, enthusiastic sort that Dr. Vass is. He's dry, he's boring, he's there with no purpose other than to carefully report the peaks he saw on his output in relation to the control. I got the sense that he had very little interest in the case itself. So that carefulness made it very easy for JB to use to his advantage by skewing every question as "compared to the control" (the control being a liquid dilution of chloroform in solution, undissipated). Yes, compared to liquid chloroform in solution, the dry carpet sample that was sent exposed to air had very little chloroform. Which of course is totally expected and it would be nearly physically impossible to have any other result.

    It's like driving while in a completely drunk, full-on alcohol blackout and getting pulled over for a blood alcohol test. Your results come up as 0.25%. A cop is interviewed about your condition and says, "I was shocked at how high his blood alcohol level was! He was extremely drunk, one of the drunkest drivers I've ever seen!" Next, an alcohol chemist is interviewed and asked if 0.25% seems like a strong dilution of alcohol. The alcohol chemist says, "Actually, when compared to a bottle of grain alcohol which is 100% alcohol, the driver's blood only contained 2.5 tenths of a percent alcohol, making it significantly lower than the grain alcohol control." Was the cop wrong? No - the driver was incredibly drunk. Was the alcohol chemist wrong? No - the driver's blood had a small amount of alcohol compared to a bottle of grain alcohol. Did their results match? Yes. So neither were wrong - they were each expressing their results in the context they were most comfortable with.

    I feel the same about Dr. Vass and dry FBI guy.
     
  17. BD1

    BD1 New Member

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    Am I correct that Dr R was testing the carpet samples, while Dr V was testing the headspace air in a sealed container of a carpet sample?
     
  18. Katana

    Katana New Member

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    The thing with the FBI chemist is that he was compliant with Jose's questioning of how low the results were and stressed it was not the most chloroform he's seen in 20 years. All the while, this guy knows his experience is with liquid chloroform which is comparing apples to oranges. He's a smart guy and he knew what is was doing. He was working for Jose. He refused to quantify yet he had no issues labeling the results as "low." That is quantifying the results! Furthermore, he doesn't expand on the fact that residual chloroform would be expected to be low. The stuff is highly volatile and quickly evaporates in the air yet, JA had to ask the question before he would offer that info up. He purposely did not add that little tid bit with his testimony of "LOW." The fact that he detected any chloroform on that liner was unusual which is why he doesn't have a history for this manner of testing. Can the minuscule amount of chloroform in laundry detergent be detected outside of it's liquid state, dried and on carpet fibers? I'm thinking no and this chemist was not willing to explain the uniqueness in this case.
     
  19. ndrew

    ndrew Member

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    Thank you - you stated my thoughts better than I did. Just came away with the feeling that JA had to try get more information in on his re-direct. Don't get me wrong I think JA is the smartest man I know and hope he got across to the jury what some of you have explained to me. I will go re-watch the testimony keeping in mind the information others posted and maybe I will get a different opinion.
     
  20. Just Jayla

    Just Jayla New Member

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    BBM-This is the only point I where I disagree with you. I don't believe he is working for Jose....I believe he's working for ths US Government, and that is what makes all the difference. When in doubt, it's probably politically motivated or intended to cover one's collective heiny, or your typical G.I. Hubris.
    I vote hubris here.
    The FBI labs, though I am of the opinion they are amongst the best in the world, are not without reproach or negative commentary. They have to hold strong to their results because if they allow any room for question, such as why their results are so vastly different from Dr. Vass's, it can undermine the confidence that the public places in Quantico. Matters not whether ORNL is funded by them or the data presented to them...their own results did not demonstrate the accuracy and innovation that some hick-hole from Tennessee did (before y'all go there, TN is my birth state of which I am proud-I am demonstrating the fed's thought process, not my own).
    Not saying this guy even thought it through to that degree-he has been trained for years to hold the bureau in highest regards and report that which the bureau "standards" allow him to report.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ac0415511

    The FBI takes issue with the Daubert standard?
    “If you are the first or have only a couple of labs out
    there using a new application or technique...you
    risk the judge not understanding it or not allowing it because
    nobody else has done it.”

    Does "nobody else" basically mean "the FBI?"

    Interesting read, and I just detect a bit of inflexibility by this agent, is all I'm sayin'....no gubment conspiracy theories here!
     
  21. Katana

    Katana New Member

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    This makes a lot of sense. I got the feeling Dr Rickenbach was directly competing with Dr Vass' findings.
     

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