Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[JMO8778]

thx,sounds like he's wondering why she was buried with it,and how important it was to her.

 

[Ames]

thx,sounds like he's wondering why she was buried with it,and how important it was to her.

Yeah, why would he ask about a stuffed animal that had nothing to do with the crime. Why waste time talking about that, if he didn't have a reason?

 

[Albert18]

They just exhumed "The Big Bopper" and his body was said to be in very good condition. He was buried in 1959.

I like the idea about the windowsill. I don't think there are any pictures that show it very good though.

I would like to see them do a modern forensic analysis of the head injury and then a complete competent grilling of Dr. Meyer. Get his thoughts and observations down on paper before it is too late.

 

[rashomon]

If Patsy did it, why should John risk his reputation and liberty assisting Patsy cover up the crime, and if it was John why should Patsy risk her liberty aiding and abetting John?

What was the other option the Ramseys had? If they told the truth, the family's reputation would have been ruined too. One of them would go to prison and they would be socially ostracized, even if the other parent had nothing to do with it. Burke would have to live with the horrible truth that one of his parents had killed his little sister. And everyone else would know it too.
Imo the Ramseys thought they had nothing to lose with trying to stage a scene, and everything to gain. Sadly, it worked.

 

[Ames]

They just exhumed "The Big Bopper" and his body was said to be in very good condition. He was buried in 1959.

<snipped>
I would like to see them do a modern forensic analysis of the head injury and then a complete competent grilling of Dr. Meyer. Get his thoughts and observations down on paper before it is too late.

REALLY? They exhumed the "Big Bopper"?? WOW...why? Well, if HIS body was in very good condition after being buried in 1959, THEN JB should be exhumed....she has only been gone for ten years.

ME TOO!!

 

[Ames]

What was the other option the Ramseys had? If they told the truth, the family's reputation would have been ruined too. One of them would go to prison and they would be socially ostracized, even if the other parent had nothing to do with it. Burke would have to live with the horrible truth that one of his parents had killed his little sister. And everyone else would know it too.
Imo the Ramseys thought they had nothing to lose with trying to stage a scene, and everything to gain. Sadly, it worked.

Yes it did...unfortunately. I don't see how they lived with themselves after that. Do you?

 

[JMO8778]

REALLY? They exhumed the "Big Bopper"?? WOW...why? Well, if HIS body was in very good condition after being buried in 1959, THEN JB should be exhumed....she has only been gone for ten years.

ME TOO!!

that's what I was thinking..wouldn't embalming fluids preserve the body to some extent?
The whole case has so many unanswered questions that I think the body will be exhumed eventually,even if it's not very soon.

 

[Ames]

that's what I was thinking..wouldn't embalming fluids preserve the body to some extent?
The whole case has so many unanswered questions that I think the body will be exhumed eventually,even if it's not very soon.

Yep, it would. My cousin was shot to death by her husband, and after ten years, he came up for parole. Well, he kept saying that she had committed suicide (and if you knew the facts of this case, you would KNOW that it wasn't true....she was shot in a hotel room, there was gun powder on a hotel towel used to muffle the shot (would someone committing suicide do that? I think NOT. Also, she was shot in the left side of her head, she was right handed. Anyway, the judge saw through it), and so the parents were going to have her body exhumed. There wasn't a need to,though. She had been dead for ten years too, though. JR needs to give permission for JB body to be exhumed...he will not do it though, because he is afraid of what they might find.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, it would. My cousin was shot to death by her husband, and after ten years, he came up for parole. Well, he kept saying that she had committed suicide (and if you knew the facts of this case, you would KNOW that it wasn't true....she was shot in a hotel room, there was gun powder on a hotel towel used to muffle the shot (would someone committing suicide do that? I think NOT. Also, she was shot in the left side of her head, she was right handed. Anyway, the judge saw through it), and so the parents were going to have her body exhumed. There wasn't a need to,though. She had been dead for ten years too, though. JR needs to give permission for JB body to be exhumed...he will not do it though, because he is afraid of what they might find.

right,any parent unafraid would be happy to do it to find out the truth,once and for all.
It may not be until 50 yrs from now,but I do think she'll be exhumed at some point in time,to try and find out more answers.it may not be until all the attorneys and family pass away,that all the roadblocks will be out of the way and that can happen.or maybe the great or great- great grandkids of the R's will want some answers in the future.I don't think it's improbable.It may be very likely.

 

[JMO8778]

They just exhumed "The Big Bopper" and his body was said to be in very good condition. He was buried in 1959.

I like the idea about the windowsill. I don't think there are any pictures that show it very good though.

I would like to see them do a modern forensic analysis of the head injury and then a complete competent grilling of Dr. Meyer. Get his thoughts and observations down on paper before it is too late.

good idea.
my thought on the sill is that it may be a corner like the side of the sink is and could cause that type of injury.

 

[Ames]

good idea.
my thought on the sill is that it may be a corner like the side of the sink is and could cause that type of injury.

I must have missed the post about the window sill. So, you are thinking that a window sill may have caused JB's head injury? Which window? And how?

 

[Ames]

probably so,as her BP started dropping.
Another thought comes to mind on the head injury...PR asked about blood on the curtains..does anyone know if there are any photos of the curtains in her room? And what kind of windowsill was behind them,and how far off the floor? My thought is that maybe she was thrown into the windowsill,but the curtains softened the blow a bit,so...no laceration ocurred,but the sill itself caused the crack in her skull,or maybe the edge of it did.

I wonder if LE ever luminoled her room?It might have been a good idea.

Nevermind...I found it...

Very good question.

Okay, I found this picture of a window and window sill in JB's room, the sill IS low enough for Patsy to have thrown her against it, and cause her headwound....

http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbed.jpg

 

[JMO8778]

Nevermind...I found it...

Very good question.

Okay, I found this picture of a window and window sill in JB's room, the sill IS low enough for Patsy to have thrown her against it, and cause her headwound....

http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbed.jpg

thx !! perhaps she was thrown across the other bed then???

 

[Ames]

thx !! perhaps she was thrown across the other bed then???

She could have been. There looks like there are curtains with tie backs, over the head of both of JB's bed. Could that be the curtains that PR was referring to, when she said that she didn't see any blood on them?

http://www.acandyrose.com/002jonbenetbed.jpg

JB's bed doesn't even looked slept in. Whats with the pillow at the foot of the bed, and also the sweater? If I lay clothes on my bed, or my daughter's...I remove them before we get into the bed.

 

[UKGuy]

What was the other option the Ramseys had? If they told the truth, the family's reputation would have been ruined too. One of them would go to prison and they would be socially ostracized, even if the other parent had nothing to do with it. Burke would have to live with the horrible truth that one of his parents had killed his little sister. And everyone else would know it too.
Imo the Ramseys thought they had nothing to lose with trying to stage a scene, and everything to gain. Sadly, it worked.

rashomon.

Ah you make my point for me:

Imo the Ramseys thought they had nothing to lose with trying to stage a scene, and everything to gain.

They colluded together, their reputation was gone the minute JonBenet was killed, but if one parent was not involved in the death of JonBenet, then he/she stood to loose not only their reputation but potentially their liberty, with no guarantee of success.

We know JonBenet was denied medical assistance, so if it was an accident which does not carry the death penalty, why would the parents cover up?

It does not add up.

.

 

[JMO8778]

The only thing that makes sense to me about that is either 1- they both conspired together to kill her,reason unknown,or 2- one killed her,(accident or no),and the other had to cover for the spouse that did it due to abuse committed by him/herself,or something else the person had on him/her.
no.2 , due to abuse,seems the most likely to me.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon.

Ah you make my point for me:

They colluded together, their reputation was gone the minute JonBenet was killed, but if one parent was not involved in the death of JonBenet, then he/she stood to loose not only their reputation but potentially their liberty, with no guarantee of success.

We know JonBenet was denied medical assistance, so if it was an accident which does not carry the death penalty, why would the parents cover up?

It does not add up.

I think it does add up, because Patsy Ramsey could never have lived with the public knowing that she had killed her child in rage. The issue was not so much about having to go to prison - clever lawyers would have put up an excellent defense for her and she probably would have gotten a mild sentence.
It's what comes afterward. Who would want to have contact with Patsy after that? Infanticide comitted by a parent is deply shocking to people, even if it was 'only' done in a rage.
Her social live would have been over. Wherever she went, people would be whispering behind her back. "See that woman over there? That's Patsy Ramsey. Can you imagine, she KILLED her little daughter in a rage ..."
Moving away where no one knew he wouldn't have worked either, for John Ramsey as a multimillionaire was a farily prominent figure - people would have found out in no time what had happened.
It would have been hell for Burke too. Bullying by classmates, etc.

Patsy could never have lived with all that. I think she begged John to help her in the cover-up, and he gave in. Self-interest on his part also played a role imo. For his image as a successful businessman with the perfect family was at stake too. He did not want to be regarded as the CEO married to a 'monster' wife who killed their child.

The chance to get away was slim but they took the risk.

But there also exists the other possibility which JMO8778 pointed out:

one killed her,(accident or no),and the other had to cover for the spouse that did it due to abuse committed by him/herself,or something else the person had on him/her.
no.2 , due to abuse,seems the most likely to me.

Possible explanation imo.


But the theory that both Ramseys colluded in the abuse of JB and then actually conspired to kill her is the least likely imo.
I can't imagine Patsy would have taken JB to the doctor so many times (JB was also treated for vaginitis) if she herself had been abusing her, or knew she was being abused by John. It doesn't add up.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it does add up, because Patsy Ramsey could never have lived with the public knowing that she had killed her child in rage. The issue was not so much about having to go to prison - clever lawyers would have put up an excellent defense for her and she probably would have gotten a mild sentence.
It's what comes afterward. Who would want to have contact with Patsy after that? Infanticide comitted by a parent is deply shocking to people, even if it was 'only' done in a rage.
Her social live would have been over. Wherever she went, people would be whispering behind her back. "See that woman over there? That's Patsy Ramsey. Can you imagine, she KILLED her little daughter in a rage ..."
Moving away where no one knew he wouldn't have worked either, for John Ramsey as a multimillionaire was a farily prominent figure - people would have found out in no time what had happened.
It would have been hell for Burke too. Bullying by classmates, etc.

Patsy could never have lived with all that. I think she begged John to help her in the cover-up, and he gave in. Self-interest on his part also played a role imo. For his image as a successful businessman with the perfect family was at stake too. He did not want to be regarded as the CEO married to a 'monster' wife who killed their child.

The chance to get away was slim but they took the risk.

But there also exists the other possibility which JMO8778 pointed out:


Possible explanation imo.


But the theory that both Ramseys colluded in the abuse of JB and then actually conspired to kill her is the least likely imo.
I can't imagine Patsy would have taken JB to the doctor so many times (JB was also treated for vaginitis) if she herself had been abusing her, or knew she was being abused by John. It doesn't add up.

rashomon,

It doesn't add up.

You bet it does'nt, the least likely theory may be the correct one, personally it adds up for me, Patsy would have no problem taking JonBenet to the doctor, then asking for a particular medication, as far as I know, JonBenet never had an internal examination, she was considered too young for such a procedure.

Why should Patsy asking John for assistance in covering up JonBenet's death, not be considered the least likely, after all what has John to gain from colluding with his wife who has just admitted killed his treasured daughter, he certainly has everything to loose if discovered, and the odds were against them since it was a domestic homicide?

Saving reputations is a fallacious argument since their reputation was gone the minute JonBenet was discovered inside their house, and they knew it was going to happen in advance, thats why friends were invited around to deflect attention etc. They knew that night that friends and family would look at them differently once JonBenet's death became public knowledge, how else could it be?

.

 

[UKGuy]

The only thing that makes sense to me about that is either 1- they both conspired together to kill her,reason unknown,or 2- one killed her,(accident or no),and the other had to cover for the spouse that did it due to abuse committed by him/herself,or something else the person had on him/her.
no.2 , due to abuse,seems the most likely to me.

JMO8778,

Those are the two most viable theories imo.

Sexual abuse offers a rationale in both these cases, since if both colluded to varying degrees, then both have a motive for her death and subsequent cover up.

In the second case where only one parent is involved in the death of JonBenet, the argument from blackmail is simply a variation on the first case where both parents have knowledge of JonBenet's sexual abuse.

In the second case the argument from self interest in assisting in the cover up, because this person is responsible for prior abuse, unknown to the person who killed JonBenet, is possible but imo weak, since with JonBenet silent her abuser can blame anyone else, so why engage in extremely risky behaviour e.g. addding your own forensic evidence to a homicide case, when your own prior involvement cannot never be proven?

So the most consistent explanation is if both parents colluded in the sexual abuse of JonBenet, giving them both strong motives for assisting each other in any subsequent cover up!

.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

You bet it does'nt, the least likely theory may be the correct one, personally it adds up for me, Patsy would have no problem taking JonBenet to the doctor, then asking for a particular medication, as far as I know, JonBenet never had an internal examination, she was considered too young for such a procedure..

UkGuy,

it is true that Dr. Beuf did not perform an internal examination, but some visits to the doctor were because of JB's vaginitis. Which parent who was the child's abuser would take her to the doctor because of vaginitis? Patsy could not know if Dr. Beuf was going to do an internal exam or not. Internal exams on children that young are probably only done under anaesthesia, so suppose Dr. Beuf (in case he suspected something) had referred Patsy to a clinic where such an exam would be done on JB?
And how could Patsy know JonBenet would not tell to the doctor the truth? All this leads me to believe that Patsy did not know about the chronic abuse. If it was chronic abuse at all, that is. The experts were divided on that.

Why should Patsy asking John for assistance in covering up JonBenet's death, not be considered the least likely, after all what has John to gain from colluding with his wife who has just admitted killed his treasured daughter, he certainly has everything to loose if discovered, and the odds were against them since it was a domestic homicide?

what John had to gain (in case the staging should work) was to preserve the public image of the family.
It is true that the odds were against them, but staging a scene was the ONLY chance the Ramseys had if they wanted to get away with it. And they took that only chance.

Saving reputations is a fallacious argument since their reputation was gone the minute JonBenet was discovered inside their house, and they knew it was going to happen in advance, thats why friends were invited around to deflect attention etc. They knew that night that friends and family would look at them differently once JonBenet's death became public knowledge, how else could it be?

But if the 'kidnapping gone wrong' story had been swallowed by LE, they could have 'saved face' in public. And saving face was all that mattered to the Ramseys here.