Did the 'Real Killer' just commit suicide?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by scandi, May 15, 2004.

  1. scandi

    scandi New Member

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    Hi,

    Never been here before, but I have always held Jon Bennet in my heart. I have also always wondered why the heck LE has never been able to pin a tail on the true killer, with political exceptions of course.

    Tonight while checking out groceries, I glanced at a fresh new tabloid cover graced by her beautiful picture, and as I read these words about the real killer having just committed suicide, my jaw must have dropped. From behind a fog of thought I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?

    It made me again wonder, with all of the exposure of the case, is there still hope to find out what really happened to this innocent and unsuspecting little girl? Ya Ya, the crime scene was contaminated, and there were some bad eggs in high places of leadership. One brave investigator went out on a limb against them after much study and having much savy, but we still don't really know what happened!

    Who really killed Jon Bennet?




    Scandi
     
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  3. Blazeboy3

    Blazeboy3 Inactive

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    Interesting thought...what is up with the thought you had "I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?" WOW I'm interested in your reply/response since you stated above you've "Never been here before" ...THANKS! :eek: :eek: :blushing:
     
  4. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    Watch out for those voices behind the fog, lest they tell you to kill, like they told Patsy.
     
  5. Blazeboy3

    Blazeboy3 Inactive

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    Hee Hee ... makes me want to watch "KILL BILL" again... LOL
     
  6. Blazeboy3

    Blazeboy3 Inactive

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    Interesting thought...what is up with the thought you had "I heard a voice saying, 'Miss, is this yours too?" I was thinking the minute I got home I better hop over to your site to see what this was all about! No thread? It isn't 'da bomb?" WOW I'm interested in your reply/response since you stated above you've "Never been here before" ...THANKS! :D
     
  7. scandi

    scandi New Member

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    Oh, well I think the 'fog' has been taken a bit too far. What I meant was that the case has always been in the back of my mind. I have never posted on this forum, but when I saw the front page of this tabloid tonight, the verbage about the 'real killer who has now committed suicide' took me off guard. I kept looking at the tabloid, thinking, I wonder if this is really true, when I heard my checker ask me a question, which brought me back to reality! And the next thought that crossed my mind was that hey, the second I get home I'm gonna check out the JBR site to see what this is all about. I was sure there'd be a long thread about it by the time I got home!

    That's all. I've never read much about the case, but have watched many specials about it, so am somewhat familiar with the case. And I can't really add anything to your discussion as I havn't studied this case like I have Laci's, where I am familiar with almost every link on the case. :D

    But I must say you guys are pretty sharp there - stealth posters to the enth degree! ;) Ya Ya :croc:


    Scandi


    PS: Did Patsy really mention a 'fog'?
     
  8. RiverRat

    RiverRat Patsy Ramsey to the Left

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    Thank you for caring enough to pop over to this forum - perhaps you can help spread the news to the Laci forum that yet another scam is underway in this case. I know that there are others concerned - especially when you remember the fact that one of Scott's defense tactics includes a "Mystery Woman." That PLOY was born right here in the heart of JonBenet's legacy - I knew at the time that it was leading the way for future criminals to get Reasonable Doubt thrown in the case when there was no evidence of it before.

    IMO - this latest headline is part of a settlement deal reached between the NE and the Rams. After Victoriously changing the way news is reported by having a Shake-Down Artist keep the press tied up in civil litigation, John Ramsey is now running for political office in Michigan.

    As you will notice - this "killer" is only brought to yu by the fine folks at the National Enquirer. Look for DA Mary Keenan to jump on this bandwagon while the Governor of Colorado sits on our request to have her removed from office.

    Please help share the word as one day Laci's family may be hearing word of a Surprise Dead Suspect.

    RR
     
  9. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    and the National Enquirer---the National Enquirer only does what profits them. They have a lot of resources to throw on a story----and once in a while they get it right. The NE likes to think of themselves as one notch above the rest of them, in getting to the truth. I am surprised they came right out and called Michael Helgoth (aka boots) a killer. Those are pretty strong words, even for a tabloid. They might have more......including the teaser they put in that they can place Helgoth at the house on one occasion.

    Boots has been discussed for many years now off and on, because of the stun gun and hi-tec boots obvious is he crime scene photos. Some of you may not like Lou Smit, but he has a history of solving tough crimes, and Boots is on his list of someone to be checked out further. If the perp is dead, it would explain why there hasn't been a confession....why there hasn't been any leaks from the perp in telling someone else. The timing of his death is interesting---maybe ol' Hunter was able to smoke the perp out afterall, with his bluffing. There are questions as to if Boots actually committed suicide---if not, he could have been the weak link, that might blab, and someone wanted him out of the picture.
     
  10. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    But what about the DNA that doesn't match?
     
  11. scandi

    scandi New Member

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    Good Morning!

    Well it is obvious that I need to read up on particulars in the case before I can discuss it. :waitasec:

    I did start reading threads here last night, and when I read that there were black fibres on Jon Bennet that matched the sweater John was wearing, I wondered why this wouldn't be a major clue.

    And then I read a thought that if her brother did this, it would be easy to understand how the P's would rally to do a major coverup to protect him. But what is hard for me to believe is how all of this coverup could be correctly programmed and carried out by her P's starting from the night of the crime itself without something giving them away. The crime had to be an accident, right? So the plan for the coverup, which I then would believe both would be involved in, would have to be an after the fact decision, formulated right there in that home that night. Je ne sait! ;) Maybe John wiped her off with the black sweater? Probably a standard thought among many.

    So I'm gonna read today. Darn, Court TV had a show on her recently and now I wish I would have watched it!

    See, if I only knew the bare basics of Laci's case and went to the forum to read and learn the facts as they are, it would be hard to find where to start. So many threads are so specific about particular viewpoints and written with the slant of the poster.




    Scandi
     
  12. Britt

    Britt New Member

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    Yeah, what about that?

    For the umpteenth time:

    Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said detectives took DNA samples from the person in 1997 and learned it does not match DNA found at the Ramsey crime scene.

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/01aboot.html

    Without coming up with an accomplice whose DNA DOES match, the Helgoth speculation goes nowhere.
     
  13. Ivy

    Ivy Inactive

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    But JonBenet's parents did give themselves away, not only in some of their staging efforts, but in their lies. For starters, (1) several professional document examiners are absolutely convinced Patsy penned the note (check Shylock's posts for a link to Patsy's handwriting exemplars), (2) the note contains pet phrases used by the Ramsey family, and (3) even though John and Patsy claim otherwise, Burke's voice can be heard on the 911 tape.

    John and Patsy made other goofs too, including placing a small strip of tape over JonBenet's mouth to try to make it appear as if the killer had done it to keep her quiet. It was obvious to investigators that the tape had been placed there postmortem. The strip of tape, which was too small to keep any living person's mouth shut, showed no indication that JonBenet had tried to work it off. There was no saliva on it, nor any tooth marks.

    imo
     
  14. vicktor

    vicktor New Member

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    Hi, Scandi

    Regarding the black fibers, this idea originated from a question that was posed to John at some point in their interviews. It makes reference to a black shirt that John was wearing the night of the 25th. John answered No, and I believe told the interviewer that he didn't think they had such fibers. The fibers were never brought up by anyone in LE again. (LE can play good cop/ bad cop, tell the suspect they know everything, or that someone else has confessed, or may pose untruthful questions in an attempt to get info.)

    There are a lot of people that make good suspects. Using common sense and the evidence at hand will help point to the person most likely responsible.
    It includes: unsourced blue fibers and brown fibers on JB, unsourced animal hair on JB's hands. A ransom note.

    The person who most likely did it was Gary Oliva, IMO. He was a man in his mid-30's who picked up mail at a church around the corner from the Ramseys. He was unemployed, had served time for an assault on a 7 year old girl, had tried to choke his mother with a telephone cord in anger, had mental problems, was described by a friend as weird, and becoming more sinister.

    He ------ was found to have a stun when stopped by the BPD 2 years later.
    ----------called his friend 3 days after the crime and confessed that he had hurt a child, while sobbing.
    ----------Has handwriting that is remarkably similar to the RN. Some of his letter combinations found within words are identical to similar combinations found in the RN. In samples of his writings he misspelled words with double consonants 5 times.
    ----------had a fascination with JB, visited her 1 year memorial, and said that she revealed herself to him upon death.

    Everything that is known about Gary Oliva fits what happened and who commited the crime. Except the DNA. Other than a negligible amount of his DNA that might have been under her nails, IMO the DNA isn't his, isn't the killer's.
     
  15. Shylock

    Shylock Former Member

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    That's the nice thing about all the Ramsey myths and lies; eventually they go full circle and cancel each other out.

    The Ramseys say the killer left behind his DNA - Suspect Helgoth's DNA doesn't match.

    The Ramseys say the killer left a Hi-Tech boot print - Suspect Helgoth's boots don't match the print.
     
  16. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    The newspapers are full of false statements attributed to the BPD. Because Beckner says it doesn't match doesn't mean it was even tested. They do obtain blood and tissue samples at autopsy---Helgoth wasn't on their radar screen---so why would they have compared the samples then? How long do they keep the samples? If they had been destroyed what was Beckner going to say when asked the question? If Helgoth was involved, there could have been more than one, and the DNA could be from someone else.
     
  17. sissi

    sissi Former Member

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    Yep yep..all true,but there is a feel there is something here. Maybe not Helgoth,many believe he was murdered, he may have been a witness or in some way knew the one who did murder Jonbenet. Who knows,even though ya guys think ya do,no one really does, except the one who murdered,or perhaps the person that contracted for it? hmm..
    JMO today..it'll change tomorrow
     
  18. Spade

    Spade Inactive

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    IMO you are misleading Scandi with this post:

    "Regarding the black fibers, this idea originated from a question that was posed to John at some point in their interviews. It makes reference to a black shirt that John was wearing the night of the 25th. John answered No, and I believe told the interviewer that he didn't think they had such fibers. The fibers were never brought up by anyone in LE again. (LE can play good cop/ bad cop, tell the suspect they know everything, or that someone else has confessed, or may pose untruthful questions in an attempt to get info.)"

    This is the interview excerpt where the fibers came up:

    21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
    22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
    23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
    24 source is the collared black shirt that you
    25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
    0058
    1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
    2 A. ********. I don't believe that.
    3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
    4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
    5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
    6 disgrace --
    7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
    8 think you are. That's disgusting.
    9 MR. WOOD: I think you --
    10 MR. LEVIN: I am not.
    11 MR. WOOD: Yes, you are.
    12 MR. LEVIN: And the follow-up
    13 question would be --
    14 MR. WOOD: Posing the question in
    15 light of what I said to you yesterday is
    16 nothing more than an attempt to make a
    17 record that unfairly, unjustly, and in a
    18 disgusting fashion points what you might
    19 consider to be some finger of blame at this
    20 man regarding his daughter, and you ought to
    21 be ashamed of yourself for doing it, Bruce.
    22 You knew we weren't going to
    23 answer the question. Why don't you just
    24 give us the report, and we'll put it out
    25 there for someone to look at and tell us
    0059
    1 what it says and see how fair and accurate
    2 you have been.
    3 I know why you said what you said
    4 yesterday about Patsy and the fibers and John
    5 and the fibers. And you know why you did
    6 it, Bruce. Because you want this somehow to
    7 get out and then people will read that and
    8 be prejudiced even further against this
    9 family.
    10 I just don't know why you want to
    11 do it, but I can't stop you.
    12 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, if you
    13 would like to, I would challenge you to find
    14 any article anywhere that I have been quoted
    15 as giving an opinion or any statement to the
    16 press concerning this case.
    17 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
    18 quoted. You don't have to be quoted.
    19 MR. LEVIN: Or any piece of
    20 evidence that I have released.
    21 MR. WOOD: You don't have to be
    22 quoted. You do not have to be quoted.
    23 MR. LEVIN: This is a murder
    24 investigation, and I am trying to get an
    25 explanation, which can be an innocent
    0060
    1 explanation.
    2 MR. WOOD: It could be, but you
    3 pose your question as if it's not not.
    4 That's what's unfair. Why don't you let us
    5 see the report so we can know exactly what's
    6 going on, exactly what other fibers were
    7 found in that area so that you don't
    8 unfairly cast an aspersion through innuendo
    9 or suggestion toward this man and his
    10 daughter.
    11 It seems to me that you should
    12 look over and go look, Mr. Wood, we want
    13 your client's help, we will give you the
    14 test results if it will help get this
    15 answered, if it is so important, we'll tell
    16 you whether there was another fiber or fibers
    17 found that we doen't know where they came
    18 from and maybe he can help you with that
    19 information, but that is not what you are
    20 doing. You are focusing on what you believe
    21 is one specific area. And you are doing it
    22 in a way that I think is just unfair.
    23 Let me just answer your question
    24 about you being quoted. Look, John and
    25 Patsy Ramsey sat around for three years and
    0061
    1 did not go public with this case, even
    2 though your people were talking to tabloids
    3 and writing books and appearing on
    4 television. Linda Arndt, Steve Thomas, Alex
    5 Hunter.
    6 You want to go through the litany
    7 of how your people have publicly prosecuted
    8 and persecuted this family, and now they
    9 decided enough is enough and they tried to
    10 go out with me, yes, sir, and them and try
    11 to refute some of the absolute lies that
    12 have been told about them. Do you have a
    13 problem with that?
    14 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood.
    15 MR. WOOD: Because your people
    16 have been saying it. I am not calling your
    17 name. I don't know who it is linked to.
    18 I don't know who gave the ransom note to
    19 Vanity Fair. I'm not suggesting it is you.
    20 But don't sit here and tell me that because
    21 Bruce Levin hasn't been quoted that this
    22 investigation from the Boulder Police
    23 Department and the district attorney's office
    24 is a lily white when it comes to talking
    25 about this case in the media because that is
    0062
    1 false, and you know it.
    2 MR. LEVIN: Now, Mr. Wood, if I
    3 can just respond very briefly, and I want
    4 Mr. Ramsey to listen to this because it's
    5 important, the suggestion is that I am
    6 suggesting that the only explanation for that
    7 question is sinister. I am a part of a
    8 team conducting an investigation into your
    9 daughter's death, and an innocent explanation
    10 that would help us further that investigation
    11 is very welcome. I am not looking for a
    12 sinister answer or innocent answer.

    EVERYONE who is interested in the truth should read the Atlanta interviews. The fiber evidence is very well documented by LE in both Patsy and John's interviews.
     
  19. halycon

    halycon New Member

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    I wouldn't put it past the Ramseys and Lin Wood to have brokered a deal with the tabloids for positive BS stories, in lieu of shakedown money. We'll never know but it makes total sense to me.
     
  20. lisafremont

    lisafremont An open mind shouldn't mean an empty one!

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    And what you cannot dismiss is the biggest clue of all and that is the bogus "ransom" letter. You don't have to be an expert to see the similarities between it and Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. And it contained things that only the Ramseys would know. Therefore, IMO, it is a fact that Patsy Ramsey wrote that letter.

    Why would Patsy write it to cover up for an intruder? No. She wrote it to cover up for someone in her family. It's quite obvious to me.

    JMO
     
  21. Britt

    Britt New Member

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    Exactly, Lisa.

    And you don't have to be an expert in psychology to notice the Ramseys' bizarre and evasive behavior, e.g. making flight arrangements to get out of town right after "finding" their dead daughter (their version of the OJ "slow-speed chase"), avoiding police while making a public relations appearance on CNN, playing games from behind their lawyers, refusing to cooperate with police, trying to control police interviews, refusing FBI polygraphs while performing their own PR polygraph stunt with hired help several years after the crime, etc etc etc.

    Ramsey-defenders' efforts to justify that behavior (not to mention the contradictory statements, the lies and the chronic amnesia) are laughable. Anyone with any common sense sees that behavior for exactly what it was/is -- obstructing the investigation and evading law enforcement. People with nothing to hide don't do that.

    I gotta wonder how Ramsey-defenders would characterize the behavior if the suspect were Helgoth or Linda Pugh or some other non-Ramsey.
     

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