Discussions on Formal Sentencing Hearing - Jodi Arias #10

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Beccaboo

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:gaah: :gaah: :gaah:

And honestly, I would NOT be surprised IF this takes more than 1 day ... this is how it rolls in JSS's courtroom !

:seeya:

If the DT can figure out how, they will make it take the week :gaah:
 

GigiG

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We might want to consider what "average" actually means. Most people on this forum would score higher than that, some substantially higher. Most people on this forum write better than Jodi does, because they aren't trying to use words or grammar constructions that are over their heads. So, lets not overestimate Jodi. Let's not overestimate her especially because those IQ tests (I don't know this for sure) are probably multiple choice. This does note reflect active knowledge. Jodi's knowledge is very passive. She can mimic word and grammar usage, but she rarely gets it quite right when she goes for high falutin'; however, this kind of usage is generally good enough to make choices on a multiple choice exam. Where Jodi excels is in manipulation. This takes a certain kind of brain: I mentioned yesterday that folks on the autism spectrum—even very high achievers—can't manipulate people with communication. She make get IQ points for this ability, I don't know.

Other than manipulation, Jodi would not be assessed very highly in terms of raw brains, IMO. She gives herself away when she messes up, e.g., Green-witch, or not realizing how much blood a wound to a given body part would produce (head wounds are very bloody, in my experience, and those were probably the least bloody strikes she made at Travis).

New flash for Jodi: a person of "college material" generally exceeds IQ 110.
Another news flash for Jodi: IQ is scored on a "bell curve". In other words, there is not an equal number of individuals at each score. "Normal" is 70% of the population. 15% are above "normal", 15% below. But there is also a margin for error, and retakes of the test will result in different scores. Most of the 15% above "normal" will be just over 115, if the test uses 115 for the norm (some use 119). The 15% above normal are also spread out to >145: the demographic as the numbers spread out get fewer and fewer.

For a nice clear, easy to read, description of IQ and bell curves, see http://www.i3mindware.com/what-is-an-iq-test-and-iq-score

Juan Martinez is light years ahead of Jodi in brains. He would score much higher on an IQ test. If we had his numbers for comparison, Jodi would look, very, very ordinary, I feel sure. Note how elevated JM's vocabulary is on the fly. And note how he communicates tactically and strategically, and he rarely uses a filler such as ummm, and all the information he has at his command. Plus, he's bilingual, I believe. These skills are extraordinary: they require raw talent, hard work, and hanging out with other folks who are very brainy. My guess is, he'd be up in the <.8% category.

Also, I believe JM and Demarte were strategically selective in how they referred to Jodi's scores. Demarte highlighted verbal abiiities, on purpose, IMO, because they could&#8212;in the minds of a juror&#8212;enhance the image of Jodi as someone who manipulates language, lies easily, mis-communicates purposefully, etc. Trap for Jodi. Note: we didn't hear about Jodi's math, logic, or reasoning skills (not to mention artistic skills). And the DT wouldn't dream of impugning Demarte's accuracy on the verbal scores: Jodi imagines she's genius in this regard. BOOM!

Throughout this trial, Juan Martinez has continually amused and amazed me. He's obviously highly intelligent, but there's so much more going on with him. His ability to think on the fly, remember things without referring to notes, the calculated way he phrases questions, his use of sarcasm to make a point; I could go on and on.

But when you consider that he, too, grew up in less than ideal conditions, he's even more amazing. I read (somewhere) that he was the youngest of 9 children from a Mexican immigrant family. He realized early on that in order to succeed he would need to learn English. He then went on to get his education and embark on a career in law.

Jodi might be able to parse words in a way that makes things "sound" good, but her lack of education is evident when you start analyzing what she's actually saying. Juan Martinez, for whom English is a second language, runs verbal circles around her. Her smirking and acting as if she's superior to him just underscores how much smarter than her he truly is.
 

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Yes your life did matter Travis, mostly for your family and friends, but also to a multitude of people you had never met.








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OMG, here come the cover-ups for Cougarluscious. LMAO. Hope it's okay to post since it was from twitter.








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ElleElle

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The other reason why I find this case so fascinating was the release of the autopsy photos and countless photos of TA/JA, JA, and even nude JA, which I believe what got her a cult-ish following. If JA wasn't good looking; (which I don't think she is, except I do think she was better as a brunette), none of this would be a circus.
IMO, this is not an average case.
 

Bluewater_Girl

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I guess in all the cases I've followed (and there have been a lot over the years), I've never before seen interest in the thoughts and feelings of the killer. Interest in the cases, yes. Interest in the various players in the case, yes. Interest in the family and the victim(s), yes. Interest in the circus surrounding the big cases, yes.

But this is the first time I've seen such intense focus on the killer, specifically wondering what she's feeling, thinking, how she perceives things, what her opinion might be, and I find that an interesting phenomenon from a sociological standpoint. There's also energy on waiting or hoping the killer will feel something specific (as defined by whoever is wishing it), will feel remorse, will see her own circumstances in the way that her spectators want her to see them. Usually the killer is just seen sort of as a blob -- a monster who did something evil and took one or more lives -- and what the killer thinks or what their opinion might be is not considered much, if at all. This changes somewhat if the killer is someone who was famous before their criminal case.

To me, as someone who looks at & studies sociological aspects to criminal cases, this is an indication of how important Arias really is to a base of case followers and it's an indication she (an otherwise fairly uninteresting killer) has managed to capture a high level of attention and get under people's skin who have never met her and never will. It's something new and different, and it's interesting to work out if it's the killer who is somehow different or something else entirely.

This is it's own circus within the larger circus and it's a subject I find interesting. I question it because I'm trying to understand what's underneath it, as it's an area of study I'm pursuing.

My honest critique (IMO): Well, if that is the case, that is okay. I do have concerns regarding your posts. This is an area of study you're pursuing? Is it academic, or a hobby? I have some friends that have doctorates in sociology that would cringe at your choice of verbiage. If your intent is to study why people have such strongly negative feelings regarding Jodi Arias, why do you post your assertions in such a condescending way ("we" spend many waking moments hating her, and "we" obsess over what she's thinking or feeling)? It certainly does not encourage anyone reading your posts to explain their feelings on this subject. I know this isn't projection, and I will stop now, because I don't want a TO.......
 

krkrjx

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I guess in all the cases I've followed (and there have been a lot over the years), I've never before seen interest in the thoughts and feelings of the killer. Interest in the cases, yes. Interest in the various players in the case, yes. Interest in the family and the victim(s), yes. Interest in the circus surrounding the big cases, yes.

But this is the first time I've seen such intense focus on the killer, specifically wondering what she's feeling, thinking, how she perceives things, what her opinion might be, and I find that an interesting phenomenon from a sociological standpoint. There's also energy on waiting or hoping the killer will feel something specific (as defined by whoever is wishing it), will feel remorse, will see her own circumstances in the way that her spectators want her to see them. Usually the killer is just seen sort of as a blob -- a monster who did something evil and took one or more lives -- and what the killer thinks or what their opinion might be is not considered much, if at all. This changes somewhat if the killer is someone who was famous before their criminal case.

To me, as someone who looks at & studies sociological aspects to criminal cases, this is an indication of how important Arias really is to a base of case followers and it's an indication she (an otherwise fairly uninteresting killer) has managed to capture a high level of attention and get under people's skin who have never met her and never will. It's something new and different, and it's interesting to work out if it's the killer who is somehow different or something else entirely.

This is it's own circus within the larger circus and it's a subject I find interesting. I question it because I'm trying to understand what's underneath it, as it's an area of study I'm pursuing.

Thanks for that response. So, your interest in the case (and also in those who continue following it) is scholarly. I will admit I thought you were being critical of those of us who have an interest in getting inside Arias's mind.

My interest in the Arias case is in large part an interest in the judicial system and how it works or, in some cases, doesn't work. I thought there were many issues that were on their own miscarriages of justice in this case and yet the trial ended well--justice was served. That is no mean feat and I have many emotions about the whole circus that range from anger to amazement, disbelief and, finally, relief that a killer goes away to pay for her crime. I will probably lose interest after that--unless something ugly rears its head again and she is allowed further near-miscarriages of justice.

Arias is not the only killer who held my attention for years, nor is she the only one I believe to be Evil Incarnate. Casey Anthony is a similar specimen. Both killers are so emotionally stunted that they probably do not feel emotional pain the way the rest of us do, yet I want some kind of assurance that they are hurting as much as they should be. I guess that's why I want to know what they are thinking, feeling, even their dreams and (hopefully) nightmares. It's about understanding the diabolical mind and what makes them tick. It really doesn't have a lot to do with interest in them as people--not for me, anyway. Plus, fascination with the macabre is as old as time and Arias is macabre if she is anything!
 

RickshawFan

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OMG, here come the cover-ups for Cougarluscious. LMAO. Hope it's okay to post since it was from twitter.

View attachment 72992

Bwahahaha! Methinks the Tweeter doth protest too much! He's actually highlighting the truth by spelling out details. He's a "florid liar"! (Where have we heard that before?)

I'll bet LE has gone after MDLR and there' an investigation, she's feeling the heat, and has asked her minions to cover for her. LMAO.
 

pferrin

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Been thinking about why i became so addicted to this case ..the crime was horrific. The perpetrator is NOT very fascinating to me. The victim and his family are true victim. And the Prosecutor is priceless.

I stayed bored with defense team and am still bored with that side of the courtroom.
Prosecutor Martinez keep me interested in justice for Travis.
 

RickshawFan

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My honest critique (IMO): Well, if that is the case, that is okay. I do have concerns regarding your posts. This is an area of study you're pursuing? Is it academic, or a hobby? I have some friends that have doctorates in sociology that would cringe at your choice of verbiage. If your intent is to study why people have such strongly negative feelings regarding Jodi Arias, why do you post your assertions in such a condescending way ("we" spend many waking moments hating her, and "we" obsess over what she's thinking or feeling)? It certainly does not encourage anyone reading your posts to explain their feelings on this subject. I know this isn't projection, and I will stop now, because I don't want a TO.......

Thank you so much for coming out and saying this, Bluewater Girl.

Just to complement what you are saying: Being judgmental is a symptom of poor critical thinking skills and it is personal. Being judgmental is not at all the same as making judgments about bias, veracity, or sloppiness, and supporting one's judgments with relevant examples.
 

Madeleine74

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Yes I have a dual interest and a case usually falls into one bucket or the other: Crime cases when the facts of the case are those that seek to prove "who done it" (meaning the defendant has not admitted doing the crime) or a "slam dunk case" that has a crazy circus atmosphere around it and the real drama is actually happening as much or more outside the courtroom (which is how the Arias case has gone).

Arias herself isn't very interesting to me. I find her terribly dull to listen to for more than 3 minutes and I have no patience for the made-up stories and lies. The various games she and her attorneys play is just more soy filler because in the end she was always going to spend life in prison so whatever else she or the attorneys did was a waste of time. But Arias appears to have a certain lure, something that scares, excites and incites and that is interesting. The reaction to Arias is more compelling than the murderess herself (IMO), which is rare.

The reaction to simple open ended questions like, "why care about Arias or her feelings on matters" is also interesting.
 

AngelWings444

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I'm most interested in case facts and how they are prosecuted, so that's generally where my attention goes. Motive is interesting as that's part of the crime. Since I'm not a mind reader I can never know what anyone is thinking or feeling, most especially the defendant as they sit there in the courtroom or in their jail cell, and most of the time they're a blank slate onto which people enjoy assigning thoughts and feelings or when they do open their mouths it's usually some form of "I'm the real victim here," or "The state/county/cops/judge/DA are all out to get me & it's a conspiracy;" "I'm innocent, innocent I say!" or "babbleBabbleCrazyBabble" or "the deceased was a horrible person and here's why..." and/or a bunch of lies in addition. Seen that episode many times...rerun!
It really seems like you are most interested on trying to interpret other members thoughts and "feelings" on the killer, taking a contrary, condescending tone, and blowing their posts WAY out of proportion. IMO-you really shouldn't take what others say so seriously and to heart. This is a forum, people vent, type their thoughts, not what they would actually do or how they actually feel in real life. Just because someone posts here and expresses opinions on JA, doesn't mean it consumes their every day life. I don't understand what "case facts" you are stating here. The trial is done and over with. She is a convicted killer. Case facts have nothing to do with what others say or type here right now. We are finally on to sentencing, hopefully. What will you do with all your free time come tomorrow? Will you still stop in to continue to tell others they should move on or when/how often to post? Yet, here you are, still posting. Nothing to do with case facts or the prosecution of the case. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

I follow this trial, because I want to follow it. The crime was so horrific and the killers actions afterwards were so out there, nothing would have ever been believed if it were on a movie screen. Yet, it was real life (not to me but the case players.) There were so many things that happened in this super duper secret trial, which were beyond the wildest of imagination. It's understandable why people follow this case. I don't understand why anyone would question it. And, who cares why anyone follows it, especially here at WS? It really seems like others following this case affects you personally. Sometimes, when others are affecting you, especially if just following a case on a public forum bothers you so much, it may be a good time to step back. I'm concerned about the amount of energy you put into what others might think and feel about the killer.

The Alexanders have been put through hell and back by this evil monster. The lies, murder, testimony, characters, acts by counsel and mitigation specialist are nothing that has been seen in prior cases. Not too difficult to understand why people have followed this case. In addition to all of the above and more, you have a man who was slaughtered, nearly decapitated, and a killer who didn't even skip a beat from the very first phone call. This is not normal and truly fascinating. People who came to her defense, writing fake pedo letters, smuggling stuff out of jail, etc...the list goes on and on. This case has been one of a kind, to those who have followed it from the beginning. Truly bizarre and unique.

It seems abnormal to ask anyone why they follow any case and question their motives in doing so. This is a crime forum, people are following all kinds of cases. Oh, and people may actually be following to see the case to the end, when this killer is finally sentenced. Something that should have happened years ago.

Personally, I can't wait for tomorrow. I want to see the killer sentenced and like other cases I have followed, will check in and chime in when I see fit and my schedule allows. None of that should concern any other member on this forum.
 

elementary

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I'm most interested in case facts and how they are prosecuted, so that's generally where my attention goes. Motive is interesting as that's part of the crime. Since I'm not a mind reader I can never know what anyone is thinking or feeling, most especially the defendant as they sit there in the courtroom or in their jail cell, and most of the time they're a blank slate onto which people enjoy assigning thoughts and feelings or when they do open their mouths it's usually some form of "I'm the real victim here," or "The state/county/cops/judge/DA are all out to get me & it's a conspiracy;" "I'm innocent, innocent I say!" or "babbleBabbleCrazyBabble" or "the deceased was a horrible person and here's why..." and/or a bunch of lies in addition. Seen that episode many times...rerun!

Case facts, how someone's prosecuted IMO, gets old really fast. The law is the law. Perhaps it would help to take a course in human behaviour and psychology apart from ascribing projection to everything, in my view, pretty simplistic, concrete thinking.
 

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Bwahahaha! Methinks the Tweeter doth protest too much! He's actually highlighting the truth by spelling out details. He's a "florid liar"! (Where have we heard that before?)

I'll bet LE has gone after MDLR and there' an investigation, she's feeling the heat, and has asked her minions to cover for her. LMAO.


Originally it was posted on the JAII site by her I guess.
 

Madeleine74

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I think what gets blown out of proportion are reactions to my posts when they do not attack anyone, are not personal, are not emotional, and only discuss issues being discussed by others already about the case or the players in the case. My posts are just as valid as anyone else's. My opinion remains that Arias is nothing special, is not the boogeyman, is as disordered as many others in prison, and free society will be safe from her, which is Juan's goal. I'm at peace she got convicted of first degree murder and I don't think she'll ever be free. The circus that has sprung up around the case is something to behold, you'd have to admit.

It will be great once she's sentenced and taken away where she can begin her slide into obscurity.
 

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It really seems like you are most interested on trying to interpret other members thoughts and "feelings" on the killer, taking a contrary, condescending tone, and blowing their posts WAY out of proportion. IMO-you really shouldn't take what others say so seriously and to heart. This is a forum, people vent, type their thoughts, not what they would actually do or how they actually feel in real life. Just because someone posts here and expresses opinions on JA, doesn't mean it consumes their every day life. I don't understand what "case facts" you are stating here. The trial is done and over with. She is a convicted killer. Case facts have nothing to do with what others say or type here right now. We are finally on to sentencing, hopefully. What will you do with all your free time come tomorrow? Will you still stop in to continue to tell others they should move on or when/how often to post? Yet, here you are, still posting. Nothing to do with case facts or the prosecution of the case. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

I follow this trial, because I want to follow it. The crime was so horrific and the killers actions afterwards were so out there, nothing would have ever been believed if it were on a movie screen. Yet, it was real life (not to me but the case players.) There were so many things that happened in this super duper secret trial, which were beyond the wildest of imagination. It's understandable why people follow this case. I don't understand why anyone would question it. And, who cares why anyone follows it, especially here at WS? It really seems like others following this case affects you personally. Sometimes, when others are affecting you, especially if just following a case on a public forum bothers you so much, it may be a good time to step back. I'm concerned about the amount of energy you put into what others might think and feel about the killer.

The Alexanders have been put through hell and back by this evil monster. The lies, murder, testimony, characters, acts by counsel and mitigation specialist are nothing that has been seen in prior cases. Not too difficult to understand why people have followed this case. In addition to all of the above and more, you have a man who was slaughtered, nearly decapitated, and a killer who didn't even skip a beat from the very first phone call. This is not normal and truly fascinating. People who came to her defense, writing fake pedo letters, smuggling stuff out of jail, etc...the list goes on and on. This case has been one of a kind, to those who have followed it from the beginning. Truly bizarre and unique.

It seems abnormal to ask anyone why they follow any case and question their motives in doing so. This is a crime forum, people are following all kinds of cases. Oh, and people may actually be following to see the case to the end, when this killer is finally sentenced. Something that should have happened years ago.

Personally, I can't wait for tomorrow. I want to see the killer sentenced and like other cases I have followed, will check in and chime in when I see fit and my schedule allows. None of that should concern any other member on this forum.



Great post, and to the point.
 

Madeleine74

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Case facts, how someone's prosecuted IMO, gets old really fast. The law is the law. Perhaps it would help to take a course in human behaviour and psychology apart from ascribing projection to everything, in my view, pretty simplistic, concrete thinking.

LOL my minor was in psychology. I've taken more than one course in human behavior.

Case facts are the bread and butter to every crime case. Discerning the truth is the whole point of a trial, it's what the jury is tasked with doing, it's what Mr. Juanderful fights hard to uncover, and understanding what the issues are in a case makes all the difference. No spectator going into this trial thought that someone other than Arias did the killing. There was no mystery there; she did it and admitted it. So the basic facts were already known to some extent. The surprises were all the circus sideacts employed to try and distract from the core of the case and the level of craziness that exploded through various media and the effect Arias has on people not part of the case.

BTW, the question was never "why follow this trial or case," it was "why care about Arias' feelings and opinions?"
 

AngelWings444

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I think what gets blown out of proportion are reactions to my posts when they do not attack anyone, are not personal, are not emotional, and only discuss issues being discussed by others already about the case or the players in the case. My posts are just as valid as anyone else's. My opinion remains that Arias is nothing special, is not the boogeyman, is as disordered as many others in prison, and free society will be safe from her, which is Juan's goal. I'm at peace she got convicted of first degree murder and I don't think she'll ever be free. The circus that has sprung up around the case is something to behold, you'd have to admit.

It will be great once she's sentenced and taken away where she can begin her slide into obscurity.
Your posts are just as valid as anyone else's posts here and you have the right to post your thoughts/opinions on the CASE. IMO-where you lose people is telling them how to post, when, and why. Continually questioning WHY others follow this case is simply not cool. Again, JMO. Everyone has the right to follow any case they choose to at WS and not have to "answer" to anyone as to their reasonings. You question why people follow this case, yet, here you are. Just because someone follows this case, doesn't mean they have put the killer on a pedestal, nor do they think she is the "boogeyman." If people stuck to their views/thoughts on the killer/case and left out their views on other members here at WS and their personal reasons for following a case, or posting years later, we would all be better off. (I know, totally run on sentences..ha) I'm here to see this case through. I don't care who is here with me at the end, when they post, how long they post, their reasonings for postings, or anything personal about any other member here. The case it about the killer and Travis Alexander, not WS members and how often they post, when they post, well...you get the idea.
 
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