DNA Clears Ramsey Family!

Not sure if this is an acceptable thing to write, but I am just totally shocked by all the people who are absolutely convinced that the parents were involved in the brutal death of their child, and got away with it. I wonder if any or many of those who absolutely believe the parents attacked their child had problems with their own parents or family members, and therefore assume a parent would be capable of doing all the things they've laid on the Ramseys. They didn't just kill the child, they fractured her skull, they choked her with a garrott, they sexually abused her, and so on and on and on.

I for one, was never even struck by either of my parents, though my mom and I had plenty of verbal arguments! Nor, were any of my friends abused by their parents. Come to think of it, my mom did slap me with a dish towel a few times, but I always got away. She would chase me around the dining room table. Too funny.

But, anyway, it would take complete and absolute proof for me to believe a parent, especially a mother who seemed to be very devoted to her daughter could murder her own child in the ways that I have read that have been described here. I don't see a shred of proof for any of these theories, but a lot of wild imaginations! It's as though they want the parents to be guilty, and refuse to look at it in any other way. I am so shocked by what I've read, that I'm beginning to believe even if they do find a killer and he's proven to be guilty, they'll never believe it. They'll still believe the parents did it.

Btw, I mean no disrespect. We all have our own feelings, and are entitled to them, it's just my own interpretation of some of the stuff I've been reading here. I know not everybody feels that way.


No my parents never abused me.

Statistics are very clear on who is the likely killer of a child, and it is not an intruder. Overwhelmingly, children are killed and yes, sexually abused by their own family members. While cases like that of Samantha Runnion, Carlia Brucia, etc. get wall to wall coverage, they are the except to the rule. In the same way, women who are killed are usually killed by someone they know, a husband or boyfriend, not a random criminal. The stats are very clear on this, the probabilities overwhelmingly lie with family members.

of course that doesn't mean the family/husband/wife is always guilty, but your post reads to me like the idea of a parent being able to abuse their child is something that would 'only' be contemplated by someone who came from an abusive background and that just isn't true. There are hundreds, probably thousands of cases of parents doing unthinkable things to their children....and a handful of intruder murders.

Again, its possible the Ramsey's are unlucky...Patsy Ramsey in my opinion was mentally unstable whether she killed her daughter or not. But, usually I find when any theory depends on everythinb being the exception to the rule...cops wrong, crime scene ruined, witch hunt and so on, what I am listening to is a defense of a guilty person.
 
You need to study up on this case. I know that because you mentioned Grand Jury among other things. You don't know why the Grand Jury didn't indict. Well those of us that follow this case with dilligence know. As I said about others that come out of the woodwork when something happens in this case, go do your homework, then come back and try to present an "informed" opinion. All the fluff is just a waste of time.

I've studied all that I need to, thank you very much. I posted on several internet forums when the case was hot. Back in the 90's and I did so for about 3-4 years regularly, so I'm not a novice. I simply don't believe that the parents are guilty, nor do I think that the so called evidence that people have come up with on the internet has ever been proved. You have theories, but no proof. Goodbye for now. Have a nice day! :)
 
I've studied all that I need to, thank you very much. I posted on several internet forums when the case was hot. Back in the 90's and I did so for about 3-4 years regularly, so I'm not a novice. I simply don't believe that the parents are guilty, nor do I think that the so called evidence that people have come up with on the internet has ever been proved. You have theories, but no proof. Goodbye for now. Have a nice day! :)

Well I'm sorry I jumped on you. I'm just in a foul mood today and this whole thing makes me sick. I'll let you decide....should I delete that post? I have no problem doing that.
 
Not sure if this is an acceptable thing to write, but I am just totally shocked by all the people who are absolutely convinced that the parents were involved in the brutal death of their child, and got away with it. I wonder if any or many of those who absolutely believe the parents attacked their child had problems with their own parents or family members, and therefore assume a parent would be capable of doing all the things they've laid on the Ramseys. They didn't just kill the child, they fractured her skull, they choked her with a garrott, they sexually abused her, and so on and on and on.

I for one, was never even struck by either of my parents, though my mom and I had plenty of verbal arguments! Nor, were any of my friends abused by their parents. Come to think of it, my mom did slap me with a dish towel a few times, but I always got away. She would chase me around the dining room table. Too funny.

But, anyway, it would take complete and absolute proof for me to believe a parent, especially a mother who seemed to be very devoted to her daughter could murder her own child in the ways that I have read that have been described here. I don't see a shred of proof for any of these theories, but a lot of wild imaginations! It's as though they want the parents to be guilty, and refuse to look at it in any other way. I am so shocked by what I've read, that I'm beginning to believe even if they do find a killer and he's proven to be guilty, they'll never believe it. They'll still believe the parents did it.

Btw, I mean no disrespect. We all have our own feelings, and are entitled to them, it's just my own interpretation of some of the stuff I've been reading here. I know not everybody feels that way.

I was never abused either. I just look at the facts and the evidence...that's why I think that Patsy is guilty. I don't believe that she harmed her intentionally...I think that it was in a fit of rage. She panicked...and thought that JB was dead...and then her survival mode kicked in.
 
I will try again...

John Mark Karr admitted committing the crime. They had a perfect right to bring him in, but he was releasd very quickly

They may have had a right to bring him in, but it was damn flimsy reasoning, and we taxpayers paid the expense for them to fly him to the US from Thailand first class with a movie flight! What a capital waste! :furious:And now he's free to roam the US to troll for children.:mad:
 
I will try again...

John Mark Karr admitted committing the crime. They had a perfect right to bring him in, but he was released very quickly

I never thought the Ramseys had anything to do with this crime. Some of the theories that the media and other posters have come up with sounded pretty far out, IMO. I have always thought an intruder or neighbor got into the house. It seemed very like the Danielle Van Dam case in San Diego. In that case, the prosecution and defense both knew Westerfield was guilty as he was told by the prosecution before he went on trial that they wouldn't seek the death penalty if he would take them to the place where the child was left. Westerfield agreed! But, before they left, someone found Danielle Van Damme, so they proceeded with the trial. In any case, the parents were persecuted so badly on the witness stand by the defense, that it was just terrible.

Westerfield was a neighbor and friend. He broke into the house while the parents were sleeping and took the child. He seemed innocent, had a good job as an engineer, and people thought him a friendly neighbor. (though later, after the trial there was released some background of minor pedophilia discovered.) The fact that Danielle's DNA was on the van did not make a difference. According to the defense, she climbed on the van during a play period.

Intruders, even known intruders can get in and kill. I think the kidnap note was to throw the police off track. I don't think the intruder had any intention of kidnapping Jon Benet. I think he disguised his handwriting. I also think he got in while the Ramseys were out. He waited and it was then that he passed the time writing the note on Patsy's note pad with her pen. And it worked.

As I recall this was the first murder case, the police were assigned to, and they made many mistakes, which I'm sure Mr. Ramsey's friend realized. That's why he advised him to called in a lawyer.

I've heard lots of theories about the Ramseys, but IMO, they all seem pretty far out. It's would be very unusual for a parent to just kill a child when there's was no background of drugs, violence, poverty, alcoholism, or mental disease, etc. There was nothing in the Ramsey's background to indicate that either of them would do such a thing. I don't believe it. In any case, Patsy is dead. Why keep harping on it when she cannot defend herself any longer.

BUT That would mean ATFER he killed her he went through all the trouble to place the 3 pages on the stairs. That doesn't make any sense. He certainly didn't place it there before taking her to the basement.

It was staging....lots & lots of staging....look at the duct tape for example.

If this truly was an intruder he would have been very experienced to have developed such a complicated & sophisticated ritual. He wouldn't simply stop and he wouldn't "care" for her body after death. It makes no sense.

There are many of pieces of this puzzle and IMO most point directly to a RDI, my money is still on Pasty.
 
In reality, what you've got is an unknown male who somehow managed to leave DNA trace of himself at a crime scene. One of the traces was left in a very conspicuous place.

MAYBE. Maybe.


The DA is on the record as IDI.

That's the problem, Holdon. She has been since she started on this case. Her bias is clear. And you don't have to take my word for it.


Start here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,379981,00.html

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Besides, the article quickly and understandably evades the circumstances of the DNA at the beginning, and instead lofts this "DNA science" as if its something ambiguous, thats free to be construed any way you want.

What do you mean 'maybe' an unknown male left their DNA at the crime scene? Can you elaborate on that? The way I read it, an unknown male left DNA in TWO DIFFERENT FORMS in TWO DIFFERENT PLACES on the victim!! Hello??
 
The way I read it, an unknown male left DNA in TWO DIFFERENT FORMS in TWO DIFFERENT PLACES on the victim!! Hello??
Allegedly. Lacy's "new" DNA results have yet to be independently verified by a second, unrelated lab. Considering her track record with regards to evidence, tests/scrutiny should also be performed to ensure there wasn't any form of tampering or unethical behavior in achieving this DNA result.
 
I was never abused either. I just look at the facts and the evidence...that's why I think that Patsy is guilty. I don't believe that she harmed her intentionally...I think that it was in a fit of rage. She panicked...and thought that JB was dead...and then her survival mode kicked in.


Well unfortunately, I was and I do not believe any proven evidence shows that the Ramseys knew of or participated in any crime against their little daughter, be it abuse or the murder.

I do believe Patsy's maternal instinct would have kicked in if she had seen or known who murdered her child. However she was given no chance to protect the child that meant the world to her. All of us like to think we are perfectly safe inside our own homes however that is not true no matter where someone may live or how much money they have or don't have.

And it would be no accident if she struck out in a rage for that would be an intentional act but imo none of the Ramseys struck this little girl, it was obvious they were totally devoted to her.



imoo
 
Odd that someone committed a crime such as this and had not previously been in the system or has been in the system since to have DNA to compare it to.:confused:

Here's a scary, scary fact: the perpetrator's DNA may be in the system--in the form of a swab sitting in an envelope in a prosecutor or warden's office.

There is an enormous backlog for DNA testing in this country. Conservative estimates are that there are approximately 1-2 million samples of DNA from felons that have not yet been processed. In some states, the backlog is running 5-7 years behind; this is very, very bad news for the victims of crimes that have statute of limitations of less than the backlog time. There are a bunch of rapes where the statute of limitations ran out before the DNA evidence was processed. They know for a fact who committed the rape but since the clock ran out, he walks away free.

It's enough to make me sick and it is infuriating for law enforcement.

Labs try to do some prioritisation in processing DNA evidence--they try to move urgent cases up to the head of the line. But that is nearly impossible to decide. For instance, which is more urgent? DNA from a murder that took place recently? Or DNA from a man who has been sitting in prison for 18+ years saying he's innocent?

In at least one state, Illinois, DNA swabs are only taken as the prisoner is leaving prison. And Illinois has one of the longest backlogs in the nation.

All they can say at this point is that the DNA doesn't match any of the 5 million samples in CODIS. There's (conservatively) another 1-2 million samples from convicted felons that are waiting to be processed to be entered into CODIS. And then there's (very, very conservatively speaking) another 10 million samples from crime scenes that have not yet been processed (keep in mind that most crime scenes yield more than one sample of possible DNA).

The problem comes down to money. DNA testing is not like sticking something in a Xerox machine to make a copy; it requires a high level of training and skill to do properly. The technicians who do it probably do love their work but just like you and me, they also have to pay the bills. They do not and most of them cannot work for free.

The lab equipment for testing the samples is quite expensive. Hugely expensive. It can't just be slapped into any old room, either--it must be run within a certain range of temperature and humidity (kinda like computers only much more sensitive). The surroundings have to be cleaner than the surgical suite in a hospital, so the air circulation system has to be specially designed for the building and it has to be maintained religiously. And every janitor has to be paid as well.

Just the protective clothing for lab techs who do DNA work is expensive. A full disposable outfit is cheaper than a re-useable outfit but even the disposables are about $6/outfit. That doesn't sound like much until you consider that the technician should change outfits between each case. If the technician handles 15 cases a day (not an unreasonable case load), that's $90/day or $450/week. Times 52 weeks a year and that's $23,400. At least they don't have to pay health insurance, workman's comp and FICA for the outfits.

DNA is an incredibly powerful tool. It's easy to see it revolutionising crime investigations... if we, as a society, decide that it is worth paying for.

Frankly, that decision has not yet been made. We're making a half-hearted effort, getting great results but it's still only a half-hearted effort.
 
It's the fact that this touch DNA matches the DNA in her underwear.

The odds of that are astronomical.

Absolutely and what is even more astronomical this test was not available when the fingernails and the crotch of her panties revealed this same male DNA profile. So it is obvious that skin cells were not used in order to obtain the results back then so the DNA must be another type of DNA such as possibly, blood, saliva etc.

Now fast forward to the new testing........Uh umm...the same male DNA profile again that matches the same male DNA profile done years ago.:eek:

imoo
 
If this is a real suspect, there should be that same exact dna match in many, many locations of the crime scene... her nails, underpants, bottoms & TOP... the rope.... they should all show that same result....

According to the AP, the only item that has been tested since low count number DNA testing is the longjohns that have made the news.

I imagine the longjohns were sent in because they were a fairly high probability item.

Ironically, the lab didn't even need to use LCN DNA testing--they got enough DNA from the scraping that they could run the regular test (which means they got 50 or more cells as opposed to the 1-5 cells necessary for LCN DNA).

Now that they've gotten a very suspicious result from one single piece of evidence, it all depends on whether the Boulder PD wants to pay for any other pieces of evidence to be tested.

It all gets down to money--how much money are they willing to spend on testing in this case? How much money do they have to spend? They can't spend more money than they have, obviously.

The number of cells they got makes it less likely that they were the results of secondary transfer. Not totally impossible but highly improbable.
 
LOL - this is coming from the same woman that brought John Mark Karr to the table, so please think twice before falling for another Ram Scam!!! Mary Keenan Lacy is notorious for going out of her way to support criminals and is on her way out of office in a few months, so this nonsense is nothing more than her Going Away gift to the remaining Ramseys as Karr was for Patsy.

Agreed 100%, no make that 200%!!!! :clap:

:clap::clap::clap: Same here.
 
Well unfortunately, I was and I do not believe any proven evidence shows that the Ramseys knew of or participated in any crime against their little daughter, be it abuse or the murder.

I do believe Patsy's maternal instinct would have kicked in if she had seen or known who murdered her child. However she was given no chance to protect the child that meant the world to her. All of us like to think we are perfectly safe inside our own homes however that is not true no matter where someone may live or how much money they have or don't have.

And it would be no accident if she struck out in a rage for that would be an intentional act but imo none of the Ramseys struck this little girl, it was obvious they were totally devoted to her.



imoo
I am so SO sorry to hear that you were abused. Even though I wasn't..I know people that have been. How anybody could harm a child is beyond me.

I believe that JB wet the bed just one too many times. Patsy, by her OWN admission...had wine to drink at the White's party. I believe that this fact...combined with tiredness from the days festivities, stress from trying to pack for a trip that she says that she didn't want to go on....had alot to do with it. I believe that she snapped....never intentionally meaning to harm JB. I think that she was shoved, or fell onto the side of the tub, or toilet...and this is what caused the head wound. Contrary to some peoples belief, the skull of a child is NOT has hard as an adults. I have been on websites that state that children have SEVERLY fractured their skulls from falling from a BIKE!!! That tells me that it wouldn't take an enormous amount of force to fracture a 6 year old's skull. I just believe that it was an accident...turned coverup...to save her butt. There is actually a show on tv called "SNAPPED"...about people that all of the sudden, one day...just snap and harm or kill a family member...or someone else. They never had any problems before....never hit, never abused, never killed, nothing....just one day...they SNAP...and lose it. This...imo..is what happened to Patsy Ramsey, on the night that her daughter was killed.
 
Obviously we are not all going to agree on this one. I confess I haven't followed this case closely, and pretty much lost interest after the Karr fiasco and Patsy's death.

But I believe in the intruder theory for several reasons.

1. I believe that what Lou Smit provided about the window, the suitcase, the grate, the lack of footprints due to no snow in the area, etc......is all credible.

2. I don't believe Patsy or John or anyone else in the family fits the profile of most who kill their kids. There is no poverty, history of mental illness, substance abuse, prior criminal behavior, affairs, prior child abuse, etc. that usually accompany killing one's own kid.

3. Most parents who kill their children kill ALL of them. Think Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Diane Downs, and countless and nameless men who murder all their kids to get back at the mother.

4. I'm not a big believer in conspiracy theories. Mary Lacy may be inept as shown during the Karr fiasco, but I don't think she would intentionally color the evidence to either protect or indict the Ramseys.

5. The note, while very weird, was not conclusively proven to be written by Patsy. I would like to see several conclusions by handwriting analysts. My step-dau. and my natural dau. are the same age, and I cannot tell their handwriting apart, and they weren't even raised together in the same town!

6. This new DNA evidence appears credible to me. I understand it is MALE DNA. This shoots down one of my former theories that the perp was a jealous pagent mom!

7. JBR's statement to someone about getting a special visit from Santa is intriguing.

8. My instinct tells me that the perp is an older man with ED who is unable to ejaculate, but still has fantasies. Or perhaps he wanted to "get even" with the Rs over some perceived injustice. Or maybe he is/was a closet pedophile. Or maybe he hung out at the pageants. Who knows? In any event, not all sex offenders rape their victims. I have personal knowledge of this. Some just enjoy looking and touching.

The reason this case has never been brought to trial is that there is simply not sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Ramseys are or are not guilty. It's a stalemate. If it was indeed Patsy, well for certain there will never be a trial. Unfortunately the Keystone Kops bungled the case from the very moment 911 was called.

I believe in the intruder theory for all the reasons I have listed above. However the one sticking point for me is the ransom note. I have always felt that it was written by a woman (not necessarily Patsy). Most men aren't that verbose. And the odd amount of the demand - odd to say the least. The only other explanation is that it was an attempt to frame Patsy by a very cunning intruder who knew the family and had a grudge of some sort.

I sincerely hope there is proof positive and that the DNA can be linked to a specific individual. Realistically though, I'm doubtful that will ever happen. This case may compete with the Black Dahlia murder as the most mysterious unsolved crime of the century.

IF Patsy did this, then she has already had her Judgment Day, and there is nothing more that can be done to her or to anyone else in the family. But IF there is still a brutal killer out there, I'm hopeful that modern science will finally be able to bring this monster to justice.
 
I imagine the longjohns were sent in because they were a fairly high probability item.

Ironically, the lab didn't even need to use LCN DNA testing--they got enough DNA from the scraping that they could run the regular test (which means they got 50 or more cells as opposed to the 1-5 cells necessary for LCN DNA).


Correct, they sent the longjohns because they knew that JB had been redressed and if the killer were not wearing gloves when redressing her, there was a hig probability to get the skin cells.

Then the new DNA matches the underwear DNA!
 
Yeah, I get that....

what I don't get is how we know this is NOT dna the child picked up herself & transferred to her OWN body.

If this is a real suspect, there should be that same exact dna match in many, many locations of the crime scene... her nails, underpants, bottoms & TOP... the rope.... they should all show that same result....

they must have all been touched when the suspect had removed his gloves to do the attack. You don't remove your gloves ONLY to pull up the pants.

EXACTLY!!! The same DNA being on her panties and long johns proves absolutely nothing. Let's not forget that this same DNA was too "degraded" YEARS ago. And now....it miraculously becomes UNdegrated? What's with that? Yep, lets have that rope, the paintbrush, TOP, and blanket that she was covered with tested TOO!
 
Correct, they sent the longjohns because they knew that JB had been redressed and if the killer were not wearing gloves when redressing her, there was a hig probability to get the skin cells.

Then the new DNA matches the underwear DNA!

So, I guess that he used gloves for EVERYTHING...except for redressing her. This new "evidence" doesn't prove a thing. NOW...if the same cells are found on the Sharpie pen, the RN paper, her top, the rope, the paintbrush, the blanket that she was wrapped in (like a "papoose"...John's words, not mine....what sort of killer, wraps his victim papoose style...only a parent would do that...it was also described as "lovingly wrapped") THEN...we will have ourselves an intruder. If you haven't already, I suggest that you read John and Patsy's interviews...on www.acandyrose.com and see for yourself the inconsistancies in BOTH of their stories, and read just how JB was wrapped "lovingly".
 
I am so SO sorry to hear that you were abused. Even though I wasn't..I know people that have been. How anybody could harm a child is beyond me.

I believe that JB wet the bed just one too many times. Patsy, by her OWN admission...had wine to drink at the White's party. I believe that this fact...combined with tiredness from the days festivities, stress from trying to pack for a trip that she says that she didn't want to go on....had alot to do with it. I believe that she snapped....never intentionally meaning to harm JB. I think that she was shoved, or fell onto the side of the tub, or toilet...and this is what caused the head wound. Contrary to some peoples belief, the skull of a child is NOT has hard as an adults. I have been on websites that state that children have SEVERELY fractured their skulls from falling from a BIKE!!! That tells me that it wouldn't take an enormous amount of force to fracture a 6 year old's skull. I just believe that it was an accident...turned coverup...to save her butt. There is actually a show on tv called "SNAPPED"...about people that all of the sudden, one day...just snap and harm or kill a family member...or someone else. They never had any problems before....never hit, never abused, never killed, nothing....just one day...they SNAP...and lose it. This...imo..is what happened to Patsy Ramsey, on the night that her daughter was killed.

TY.

I do respect your opinion to believe as you seem fit but imo, I do not believe that was the case. There is nothing in Patsy's history that shows she was a violent woman or abusive to her children. If anything I think she most likely overly doted on them.

I doubt a fall from a bike could cause the horrific skull injury that JB suffered. Imo it took a lot of strength and power to wield that kind of blow.

I have always thought "Snapped" is such an inappropriate name for that particular show. Many of the murderers on there were cold blooded and premeditated their crimes. I don't particularly buy into the "snapped" defense. To me it is just used to try and wiggle out of responsibility and accountability in the justice system.

imo
 
So, I guess that he used gloves for EVERYTHING...except for redressing her. This new "evidence" doesn't prove a thing. NOW...if the same cells are found on the Sharpie pen, the RN paper, her top, the rope, the paintbrush, the blanket that she was wrapped in (like a "papoose"...John's words, not mine....what sort of killer, wraps his victim papoose style...only a parent would do that...it was also described as "lovingly wrapped") THEN...we will have ourselves an intruder. If you haven't already, I suggest that you read John and Patsy's interviews...on www.acandyrose.com and see for yourself the inconsistancies in BOTH of their stories, and read just how JB was wrapped "lovingly".

IMO it's possible he did not wear gloves when he began to molest her, he'd been waiting to do this too long....then he puts the clothing on. Sex predators sometimes do think they "love" their victims and I do not find it odd that they would wrap her up like that.
 

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