Doctor's Appt & Seizures Revisit w/new 2010.11.12 Dateline info

(moved from the Dateline thread):

ALL very diabolical on Terri's part. My goodness. I'm definitely seeing something here I wish I hadn't.
PSA: regarding the reformatting of the quotes on this post, I published my corrections prematurely a few times and that was why it was confusing at one point to those of you that saw it and alerted. Sorry about that debs.
So, if this is still inaccurate can some one please let me know by way of a friendly alert? gracias
 
BeanE there is also a news article, where Terri's mom talks about the Dr. appt. that, I believe is a little different than Terri's email explanation and JF's explanation. I know you could pull it up in a nano second. It would be good to have that one on here also, thanks.

Sorry, I don't recall Terri's mom ever saying anything about doctor, appointment, or seizures, so I don't have any good keywords to use to search.

If you can recall something the article said, an uncommon word or phrase, the timeframe, something else mentioned in the article, something like that, I'll give it a shot.
 
Sorry, I don't recall Terri's mom ever saying anything about doctor, appointment, or seizures, so I don't have any good keywords to use to search.

If you can recall something the article said, an uncommon word or phrase, the timeframe, something else mentioned in the article, something like that, I'll give it a shot.

It was way in the beginning, her mother also talked about Kyron not being adventurous and not going far from the house. Also about J being at a boy scout camping trip. I believe she gave the interview, early on the 5th.
Sorry Bean, found the article I was thinking of, Terri's mom did not mention the Dr's appt.
 
Me too!!!! That is the one thing I wish we knew for certain! It would definitely answer a lot of questions.

Not necessarily, imo. Personally, I think she probably did set up an appt. for the 11th. No harm in doing that, and it just lends more credibility to the alibi. I remember way back when her FB was still up, I looked a little bit into a bunch of people who posted to her within the first few days, especially the men, and I concluded that one of them might be a local pediatrician. Or at least shared a name with one. I DON'T KNOW IF FOR A FACT, but for me, the idea that she may have been in immediate contact with the pede has always made the dr. appt. even more suspicious. I wish I knew if that were true. At the time, we weren't allowed to sleuth any FB folks (maybe we still aren't!), and now I can't remember the guys name or even what he posted. I should add that the post itself wasn't odd. Nothing like "so sad, wonder if this had anything to do with those seizures you were the only parent loving enough to notice" :innocent:
 
Moulton doubts Kyron wandered off on his own. It's just not in his character, she said.

"He's a little bit dreamy. He's a sweet kid. He gets distracted. He's your typical second-grader," she said.

But he's no Huckleberry Finn.

"He's not real adventurous," she said. "He's a little timid. But if a friend wanted to go outside and look at something, he would follow the friend. He has a friend who he regularly gets in trouble with in the classroom because he talks too much."

Moulton said Kyron will not even venture far from his home in a wooded area.

"He won't get out of sight of the house," she said. "He's pretty insecure about that. So I can't see him wandering off."

....

Terri also has a 16-year-old son from a former marriage who has lived with her mom and dad for the past few months in Roseburg. The teen's father also lives in the area and the two are on a Boy Scout camping trip this weekend.

It will be difficult to give him the news, Moulton said.

Could this be the article? I didn't see anything about a doctor though.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
 
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

According to sources, investigators believe Terri Horman was vague about which Friday she was referring to when she gave notified the school of her stepson's anticipated absence, and only after he was missing did she clarify that the doctor's appointment was on June 11, the Friday after the science fair.

.... The boy's mother, Kim Holm, said her son knew about Kyron Horman's appointment, too.

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said.
 
It was way in the beginning, her mother also talked about Kyron not being adventurous and not going far from the house. Also about J being at a boy scout camping trip. I believe she gave the interview, early on the 5th.
Sorry Bean, found the article I was thinking of, Terri's mom did not mention the Dr's appt.

Is this the article you're thinking of, Jo? I don't see anything about the appt. (but I just skimmed it). She does say he's "dreamy" and "gets distracted" -- but like a normal 7 yo. Maybe she disagreed with TH's diagnosis.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...arol+moulton"+dreamy&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
 
Could Terri make Dr's appointments for Kyron?
I don't think that would be a problem. Steps can often do anything that a parent can including sign forms and give authorizations as long as no one has a problem with it.
I can't imagine that Kaine or Desiree would have stood in the way of that happening.


Other unrelated thoughts.
If the seizure story was part of a master plan, then I suspect Terri did talk to the doctor or a representative speaking for the doctor because otherwise it would be too easy to invalidate. I mean what is the point of a master plan that is not carefully orchestrated? takes the master out of master plan. Why pull off the 'perfect crime" so to speak and leave an end like this so impeachable? I think the actual appt itself was probably authentic.

If it was a concocted story, then I suspect it had nothing to do with his disappearance and was created for other reasons; reasons that would not need formal validation. By that I mean perhaps she was trying to create the illusion to Kaine that she was critical to Kyron's care and that might aid in keeping their marriage on track;as it is documented that she was seemingly trying to do that or make others believe she was at any rate.
kaine wouldn't actually check up on anything like phone calls and by that time she would have had Kyron in to see the doctor and would proceed from there.

I do find it odd that the doctor would make this type of guess, but then again it could have been taken out of context. Dr could have said, could be seizures, could be nothing, could be this that or the other, but we won't know until we check him out. TH quoted seizures because it is more dramatic, or because it caught her attention the most imo.
 
Other unrelated thoughts.


If it was a concocted story, then I suspect it had nothing to do with his disappearance and was created for other reasons; reasons that would not need formal validation. By that I mean perhaps she was trying to create the illusion to Kaine that she was critical to Kyron's care and that might aid in keeping their marriage on track;as it is documented that she was seemingly trying to do that or make others believe she was at any rate.
kaine wouldn't actually check up on anything like phone calls and by that time she would have had Kyron in to see the doctor and would proceed from there.

.
To clarify my own words, I mean that if the conversation with the Dr is made up AND she is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, then, imo, one has nothing to do with the other, because it doesn't lend itself to a well executed crime.
 
I think the key here is I'm sure that Kaine would have signed permission for the doctor to provide information to LE about any potential doctor appointment. My thought is that Terri might have made an appointment for vaccinations, or maybe yearly check, but expounded upon that in her email to make it sound more serious?

That is what makes this all so frustrating not having any facts about so many things.

My opinion is this goes to her state of mind once again. Was she acting rationally in anything she did in those last weeks?
 
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

According to sources, investigators believe Terri Horman was vague about which Friday she was referring to when she gave notified the school of her stepson's anticipated absence, and only after he was missing did she clarify that the doctor's appointment was on June 11, the Friday after the science fair.

.... The boy's mother, Kim Holm, said her son knew about Kyron Horman's appointment, too.

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said.

That has always sounded to me like the child heard the teacher say that about the doctor's appt, and that's how he knew about it.
 
That has always sounded to me like the child heard the teacher say that about the doctor's appt, and that's how he knew about it.

I am also inclined to think the child heard the teacher say this. I am also inclined to think he heard it in response to the chaperon asking where Kyron might be, at the start of the tour to the classrooms, not after. IMO Kyron never went into his class and started a tour. Otherwise Terri would not have been the last known, named, person to have seen Kyron.
 
Mini seizures are correctly termed complex partial seizures. In my professional opinion, TH either lied or she contact an unbelievably incompetent pediatrician about Kyron’s partial seizures.

Below is information that pediatricians follow when pediatric patients are experiencing partial seizures. Because the etiologies can be LIFE THREATENING PROBLEMS, no competent pediatrician would tell any parent to bring the child into the office in a week or so. Notice that one cause of non-febrile seizures is MENINGITIS. No competent pediatrician would blow off Kyron’s supposed symptoms when it could infect his ENTIRE school and community and maybe even the pediatrician and his/her own family. The etiology could also be drug/toxin overdose which could result in immediate death if not immediately assessed and treated.

New Onset Non-Febrile Seizure


Etiologies include:

Infectious- meningitis/encephalitis, abscess, shigellosis, parasite

Idiopathic

Metabolic- hypo/hypernatremia, hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia, inborn errors

Drugs/toxins- a very long list!!

Congenital structural abnormalities- neurofibromatosis, malformation, atrophy

Anoxia

Trauma- subdural hematoma, epidural hematoma, concussion, shaken baby syndrome

Vascular- stroke (embolic/thrombotic), collagen vascular disease
Tumor


Laboratory tests should be ordered based on individual clinical circumstances that include suggestive historic or clinical findings such as vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, or failure to return to baseline alertness. Laboratory evaluation may include electrolytes, glucose, calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus; urine drug screen; CBC.

A lumbar puncture is of limited value in the initial evaluation of children with simple afebrile seizures, UNLESS there is concern about meningitis or encephalitis. Consider a CT scan/MRI if the exam or seizure is focal.



An EEG is recommended as a part of the neurodiagnostic evaluation. It aids in predicting the risk of recurrence and helps classify the seizure type.

The risk of recurrence after a first unprovoked seizure is higher (>50%) for remote symptomatic cases (e.g. prior insults such as static encephalopathy, head trauma, intracranial bleed) or with Todd's paresis. Status epilepticus as a first seizure does NOT increase the seizure recurrence risk.

http://clinicaldepartments.musc.edu/pediatrics/divisions/emergencymedicine/residentmanual/seizures/

I can pull up hundreds of references showing the etiology of non-febrile seizures. They all state the same thing. They all show that the etiology could be something very deadly and even contagious. NO half-way competent physician would disregard and delay assessment of a child with such symptoms.
 
Hi pensfan, generalized seizures can come in the form of absence or petit mal seizures. This is what I think they are describing. My son had them and they are not alarming, just odd.

remember,she doesn't know if they are seizures, she is just seeing some unusual activity that she reports to the doctor. Doctor probably said bring him in, but most likely would not send her to ER or anything. If the whole story is to be believed, the doc would check him out, suggest some additional diagnostic tests and take it from there. IMO, this is not an ER type situation unless it is extremely acute and the child seems to be in distress.

Sounds to me as though they were just evaluating the situation. Seizures are a funny thing and it souonds like the behavior was just off enough to warrant more investigation.

ETA: IMO, complex partials could be more disturbing and I agree with you that they could be more of an urgent matter. But that doesn't seem like what she is describing, to me.


ETA: here is some quick info for you.
Generalized seizures involve larger areas of the brain, often both hemispheres (sides), from the onset. They are further divided into many subtypes. The more common include:
[snip other types of generalized seizures]
Absence (petit mal): Loss of consciousness only occurs, without associated motor symptoms. Usually there is no aura, or warning. The loss of consciousness is brief; the patient may appear to be involved with the environment and briefly stop what they are doing, stare for 5 to 10 seconds, and then continue their activity. No memory of the event exits. Subtle motor movements may accompany the alteration in consciousness.

http://www.neurologychannel.com/seizures/types.shtml


More good info for you and my favorite website :) :
http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/about/types/types/
 
Thanks for the info, but I practiced at Seizure's Palace for approx 30 years. :)


There is no way to diagnose what type of seizures Ky was having without the doc going through a complete history of the problem and a physical exam. Physical exams cannot be performed over the telephone. If Terri describe seizure activity (and she told friends that she did according to news articles), a competent pediatrician would have wanted to make an immediate assessment. No competent physician would have given Kyron this diagnosis over the phone.

We are left with two options. Either Terri didn't describe seizure activity to Ky's pediatrician (she lied) or the physician is not practicing standard of care for his/her specialty.
 
"the doc thinks he might be having seizures" doesn't sound like a diagnosis. Sounds more like a "these things can indicate seizures but I can't tell over the phone so let's just get him in here at such and such a date."
 
Thanks for the info, but I practiced at Seizure's Palace for approx 30 years. :)


There is no way to diagnose what type of seizures Ky was having without the doc going through a complete history of the problem and a physical exam. Physical exams cannot be performed over the telephone. If Terri describe seizure activity (and she told friends that she did according to news articles), a competent pediatrician would have wanted to make an immediate assessment. No competent physician would have given Kyron this diagnosis over the phone.

We are left with two options. Either Terri didn't describe seizure activity to Ky's pediatrician (she lied) or the physician is not practicing standard of care for his/her specialty.
We are in agreement on several things.

But I have only live in Seizures Palace for 23 years :floorlaugh:. Here is more info though:

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/c/9339/9400.html


Earlier I posted that I suspect she called the doctor, described what she was seeing and he threw out some ideas as to the cause. he may have said he could be normal or having mini seizures, could be preoccupied or distracted with other issues. I also suspect the doctor said we won;t know unless we do a full evaluation. here are forms for school and you so we can schedule an appt for more diagnostics and see what is happening.
I think Terri jumped on the seizures because they may have served a purpose or because they sound more dramatic.

My only point is that this does not sound like an emergency situation and because of course the Dr cannot make any kind of diagnosis over the phone, he/she was in the process of seeing the chikld and evaluating what may be going on.
hence we have a3rd option and that is she called the doctor, told him/her what she was seeing and the doc said then bring him in because it could be this that or the other.
 
Incorrect. Terri posted: The doc thinks that he is having mini-seizures, and I made an appt. ... for next Friday to have him checked out.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/11/earlyshow/main6763247.shtml

Yeah. Mini-seizures. This doesn't take into account what Terri might have used to describe them. still doesn't sound like a diagnosis but sounds like a possibility the doctor believes the symptoms Terri describes MIGHT include.

Still not a diagnosis. Just a reason to make the appointment.
 

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