Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by BeeBee, Mar 9, 2007.
Ok, ready to go. Some of you can move the last posts you wrote here to Part 2 if you want.
Link to the first thread on this very interestng subject: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47345&highlight=Jesus
I would say you are doing fine with these sources. Jared Diamond is a wonderful writer on this kind of subject. I like everything he does.
What do you make of this as an example of Jewish literacy?:
That was when the very important discovery came to light. During his lecture Feb. 5 at Southwesterns main campus in Fort Worth, Texas, Barkay projected a photograph of a tiny, dirty cylinder he described as the size of a cigarette butt. It was an amulet designed to be worn on an arm or forehead in literal obedience to Deuteronomy 6:8, an ancient precursor to what are today known as phylacteries.
Inside [the amulet] we found a tiny, silver scroll, which took us three years to unroll, Barkay said. The scroll yielded 19 lines of minuscule writing ... in ancient Hebrew script.
Stratigraphy enabled Barkay to date the silver scrolls to the seventh century B.C., to the time of King Josiah. He said the scrolls refute scholars who claim the books of the Pentateuch were written later.--->>
Experts in ancient Semitic languages showed that the tiny scrolls contained the earliest written example of the Aaronian benediction recorded in Numbers 6:24-26: The LORD bless you, and keep you; the LORD make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace.
This text predates the earliest Dead Sea Scrolls by four centuries, Barkay said in reference to the importance of the silver scrolls. They are the oldest biblical verses identified in the world. --->> http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=25134
Also, any opinion on how reliable stratigraphy would be in dating this particle artifact to 700 BCE?
The existence of written texts does not equate with a literate society. We have millions of clay tablets with all kinds of written documents including lexicons, epic poetry, contracts, royal decrees, law codes, poems, etc. etc. etc. However, the average Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, etc, was illiterate. While I do agree that literacy in 1st century Judea was higher than in Bronze and Iron Age Mesopotamia, it is a stretch to conclude that most jews could read. Then there is the question of literacy vs functional literacy. A person who is functionally literate - can read and even write their name, can recognize common place names on signage -- is not necessarily competent to read or comprehend literature, legal documents, or correspondence.
Thanks, Cypros. It makes more sense to me that literacy among Jews would be limited in the first century, rather than nearly universal.
I understand about functional literacy, because I have 2 adult sons who are mentally handicapped. One can read and write at 3rd grade level but has comphrension problems. The other recognizes letters of the alphabet and his first name, can print his first name almost legibly, recognizes skads of signs but cannot read at all.
I think I'll stand corrected on my original statement, and bow to more realistic historical understanding. I'll let y'all know if my biblical history professor friend comes around as I have.
another article on MSNBC....
Stephen Pfann, a textual scholar and paleographer at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, said he has released a paper claiming the makers of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" were mistaken when they identified an ancient ossuary from the cave as belonging to the New Testament's Mary Magdalene.
Oh, sure. When CYPROS says it, then we'll listen.
(JK, of course. Cypros IS the expert.)
Don't be misled by the article's title, as Southern Baptists aren't embracing the idea of Jesus' tomb being found:
Jesus' 'lost tomb' in Fort Lauderdale
Baptist pastor says 'Cradle of Christianity' exhibit is 'great opportunity' for Christians
By JAMES A. SMITH SR.
Published March 15, 2007
FORT LAUDERDALE (FBW)Florida Baptists and other Christians interested in investigating the much-publicized "lost tomb of Jesus" can see it for themselves until April 15 at Fort Lauderdale's Museum of Art.
As far as Larry Thompson, pastor of First Baptist Church in Fort Lauderdale, is concerned, the exhibit is a unique opportunity for Christians to see historical artifacts that can undergird their faith, notwithstanding the dubious claims about the supposed Jesus ossuary, which was featured March 4 in the James Cameron documentary on Discovery Channel.
Since Dec. 7, the ossuarya small stone box used to hold boneshas been on display as part of a major exhibit on loan from the Israel Museum. The exhibit, "Cradle of Christianity," was first displayed in the year 2000 in Jerusalem as part of the millennium celebrations. It was previously on display in the United States only once in Cleveland, and will not return to America again for at least ten years, according to Thompson.
The exhibit includes several sections with more than 100 artifactsone setting the stage for the world Jesus lived in during the first century, a section featuring church architecture and worship settings, another section focusing on Jewish synagogues, and final part featuring artifacts from Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land in the 4th-6th centuries.--->> http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/7121.article
I don't believe this is the tomb of Jesus. I don't even believe Fort Lauderdale (my hometown) has a Museum of Art.
Uh oh, Nova. Turns out that Ft Lauderdale has had a Museum of Art since 1958 http://www.moafl.org/06/aboutmoafl.html
Does it follow that if Ft Lauderdale does have a Museum of Art that it also must be the tomb of Jesus that was found?
I lived in Fort Lauderdale from 1955 to 1977 and know Las Olas Boulevard well. But I have no memory of that building. Shows how much I paid attention to fine art in those years.
(I've been to the museum here many times and I only moved to town a couple of years ago. See, everybody? College IS broadening!)
So yeah. I guess it logically follows that the ossuaries are genuine and I just wasn't paying attention.
While I think he could well be right about the "mary the master" bit (which I always thought was quite the stretch) - still doesn't prove nor disprove that the Mary in the box is Mary Magdalene.
No, but the entire claim is based on the supposed unlikelihood that Mary Magdalene's remains would be found with a family whose names are the same as Jesus' kin. You've already pointed out problems with the claimed odds. If it isn't MM (or at least can't be proven to be), then the claim is even weaker.
I don't know how it could be proven absolutely, from a scientific standpoint, that the people in the ossuaries are members of the family of the Jesus in the NT, or that Mary Magdelene described in the NT as having demons cast out, then became a follower of that same Jesus is the Mary Mariamene of that ossuary.
In the same vein, there is no scientific proof that Jesus was God in the flesh, born of a virgin, doer of miracles, risen from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven.
Archeology also isn't going to scientifically prove either side.
And given the claim that God magically planted dinosaur fossils just to test our faith, it wouldn't matter to some even if it could be proved.
Huh? Why in tarnation would someone (who?) claim that God planted dinosaur fossils, magically at that, just to test our faith?
Beats me. In fairness, I don't believe that's a common Creationist claim. I believe most Creationists now think the dinosaurs lived within the past 6,000 years. (A claim I don't find any more reasonable, but that's another thread.)
I would venture to guess that most people who believe that God created the heavens and the earth, etc. do not believe that earth is only 6,000 years old.
It's like some churches you go to will have members that handle live, poisonous snakes. Most of them have more reasonable ways to express their faith.
*no offense to those who handle live poisonous snakes in church...
Most people on the planet maybe, but in this country, depending on the poll, as many as 50% or 60% believe Genesis is literal.
Separate names with a comma.