Found Deceased Dominican Republic - Orlando Moore & Portia Ravenelle, from NY on vacation, April 2019

I don't understand why the time the resort was left is in question--surely there were cameras and quite probably guards. As far as check-in, rushing to make flight, etc., once you're checked in online, if you're not checking bags and have a boarding pass pre-printed or on your phone, you just have to make it through security and board. I couldn't tell you the last time I checked in for a flight in person. Many of these low-cost airlines will charge you for any baggage (checked or otherwise) and even printing the ticket. I will say, that even if they knew they would probably miss the flight, I don't think they could have done anything but keep going, (a.) in the hopes that they might make it due to flight delays, not an unrealistic hope with Spirit as the airline, and (b.) for lack of any other option. They had checked out of the resort. It was 1:30 AM. They had nowhere else to go. It would be cheaper to go straight to the airport and try to get on a later flight than to try to find a business open or a hotel room at that hour, and still have to pay for the later flight.


The time they left the resort hasn't been reported, AFAIK, so those of us who like having basic questions ( who, what, where, when, why, and how) answered, have questioned it. As others have said, if there's nothing to hide, why not release the information? There's been a lack of information and conflicting information about PR and OM. I'm sure someone knows exactly when they left the resort, but right now we don't.
 
I have wondered as well about salt water and rust.

The rental car company has publicly confirmed nothing. LE there has said the serial number matched but of course like with everything there is no photos, documents or anything else of that and it is amazing and fortunate the serial number survived considering what the car looks like or was decipherable so easily. The hotel has also said nothing publicly. Nor has the airline, whichever one it was. There is no documentation of anything to date including her hospital stay. In fact it has been said she was not even found or taken there until 12 hours after the time of the flight.

I think auto manufacturers put the VIN on several places on the vehicle. This link is for the US, but shows possible locations Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) Look Up Online | DMV.ORG. Maybe a VIN was visible on the framework that they managed to pull from the ocean.
 
I think auto manufacturers put the VIN on several places on the vehicle. This link is for the US, but shows possible locations Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) Look Up Online | DMV.ORG. Maybe a VIN was visible on the framework that they managed to pull from the ocean.

It very well could be. I think they are put more than one place too, I know of the well known place. It was quickly announced.

It is, however, one of those things again that could be quickly provided or verified--a picture of that and then a matching car rental record. When time passes without one thing like that, it just adds doubts.

imo.
 
I am talking about video from the hotel and the toll booth, not locals running around with cameras nor cameras on rural roads. Check-time at the hotel, toll booth video, hotel video, and lets add flight time and airline as well.

Gossip and hearsay is not fact. I have also split bottles and have had one drink made with less than a shot. The other couple may have finished it or taken it back to their room, not uncommon when one is leaving and the others staying in an all inclusive resort. In fact, many new friends I have met on such vacations, that is exactly what was done on parting and always right at the end and in no way does it mean you left intoxicated. In fact, our way is to go out to dinner away from the all inclusive and buy the last bottle and dinner for friends, have a token drink with them and provide it to them. I also know many couples where one drinks and the other does not or may have one.

Regardless, they could have had drinks, maybe even a few too many but no one knows that at least on here, and still been assaulted, car jacked or waylaid, or she could have not had any and been the one driving. There is no documentation whatsoever. The documentation that does and/or should exist has not been provided so why would I assume what happened?

As to such carjackings and attacks, there is ample information out there about this country and this highway. The warnings also exist for a reason and to rental cars and tourists specifically. There is also a reason we can find this highway named specifically.

I have not said it was not just a tragic accident but it remains to be seen since again, we have sensationalistic victim blaming headlines and not one bit of actual fact here.

As for buying into media as fact, let's remember it has been said he was found washed up on shore and just the other day that they pulled him out of the car wrekacage. Just one of many examples. Therefore, I do not give media much credence and take it less than a grain of salt. Times have changed. It used to be if I wanted to read a rag, they were found at the checkout counter at a grocery store with headlines like "celebrity named so and so just had a two headed baby", now it seems most have adopted such a practice.

It would not be good enough for me at an inquest and it is not good enough for me here.

But that's just me, to each their own. No one will rush me to a decision anymore than anyone will change your mind in what you apparently have already decided.

For me, I will wait to see if the family accepts the answers if they come, what our own authorities and departments involved have to say and and the results and any documentation, if ever provided. It is clearly being looked into for a reason by our State Department, congressmen and more, and they are not taking the word from another country without awaiting those answers either. I will go with that.

jmo.


Trust me; I get it. I am just basing my opinion on actual interviews and things/statements made by the police and the Chief (those are "officials") or released to the media by them at this point in time.

If you wish me to change my mind, please link me to anything, anything, from those same officials, or last people to spend time with them, or any source at all that hints at foul play, another car being involved, mugging etc. If it's in here, I've totally missed it.

Officials have made statements about their suspected probable cause and until I see surveillance from tolls, roads, business' etc showing this couple being mugged, another car involved, or an entire nation and it's people covering up to protect their tourism, I'm just going to stay with my gut and apply Occam's Razor to the released facts and statements we know thus far from officials and those last people to interact with them.

In any other case here on WS, the statements of the last known people to interact with a victim(s) are dissected for clues about what may have happened/who may have murdered them etc. The same thing is happening here.
 
Thank you for your response. I agree with you. And as I mentioned earlier that though I am a little behind with the news regarding this, what you commented is exactly what I had gathered from reading public info. What a sad and crazy situation all the way around. Just the vehicle's seats? Wth are they? Even though we are talking about a full size vehicle in Hart family murder crash, plummeting 75 ft over a cliff, I still cannot believe that this car looks like this. I cannot believe they supposedly find a cell phone I Phone in that crashed car but no luggage or a purse with ID jammed in the seats? I guess I am just not good with accident scenes but it seems wild to me, considering many that I have read about and cases I follow , IE. Schoharie Ny Limo Crash, kills 20. sorry to babble. Thanks for your input. l
I have wondered as well about salt water and rust.

The rental car company has publicly confirmed nothing. LE there has said the serial number matched but of course like with everything there is no photos, documents or anything else of that and it is amazing and fortunate the serial number survived considering what the car looks like or was decipherable so easily. The hotel has also said nothing publicly. Nor has the airline, whichever one it was. There is no documentation of anything to date including her hospital stay. In fact it has been said she was not even found or taken there until 12 hours after the time of the flight.
 
Thanks. I agree and yes they do. I guess I have my doubts until the FBI sees the exact car and the rental company publically confirms that is their rental. I am just having a tough time wanting to believe this was an accident, let alone an accident that OM or PR caused themselves.
I think auto manufacturers put the VIN on several places on the vehicle. This link is for the US, but shows possible locations Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) Look Up Online | DMV.ORG. Maybe a VIN was visible on the framework that they managed to pull from the ocean.
 
Looking at that car, to me it looks like it had burned. There’s nothing distinguishable left to the inside, no seats or seat belts. I think I could make out the steering wheel but that’s it. I also did not see any tires/wheels on the vehicle. Could it have rolled, exploded in fire and went into the sea extinguishing it soon after?

Also, IIRC, didn’t one of the articles say that they’d went to a disco that evening with the Canadian couple and the the hotel bartender (who hooked them up with his friend for the horseback/waterfall excursion), was also there? It said they’d split a bottle of rum and then headed back to the hotel for them to pack and check out.
JMO
 
...RSBM

Also, IIRC, didn’t one of the articles say that they’d went to a disco that evening with the Canadian couple and the the hotel bartender (who hooked them up with his friend for the horseback/waterfall excursion), was also there? They’d split a bottle of rum and then headed back to the hotel for them to pack and check out.
JMO

The disco was the 25th March, the full night before they left. The disco bartender hooked them up with a friend of his so that the four of them could spend the 26th March day at the waterfall visit and horseback ride. After their visit to the waterfall they returned to the hotel and shared the bottle of rum with the Canadian couple whom they parted ways with at some time between 2130-2200hrs to pack, check out then drive to the airport to catch their 0130hrs flight (27 March).
 
I feel so weird bringing this up so often, but this probably is not such a big deal that it will be continually brought up in a newspaper.

It happened and it is reported and then the media moves on.

The way I find info here where there is a lot of tourism is to talk to people. And then even with the simplest of things, there is the effect of things changing with each telling.

I imagine there are lots of tourist mishaps there.

Cruise ships anchor right by my house. One day a cruise ship came and left right away.

I found out eventually it was because at some point before, a man drowned as he went onto a dock because the waves were so rough and he was washed out,

We did not think it was very wavy here, but it was enough to scare the captain.

Hawaii has lots of tourist drownings. I bet people are not aware of that.

Tourists are very vulnerable as they do not know a place or its customs. It may look beautiful, but it is not a postcard.

I imagine tourists die in mainland US from other countries but rarely does anyone outside of the immediate area hear about it
 
The disco was the 25th March, the full night before they left. The disco bartender hooked them up with a friend of his so that the four of them could spend the 26th March day at the waterfall visit and horseback ride. After their visit to the waterfall they returned to the hotel and shared the bottle of rum with the Canadian couple whom they parted ways with at some time between 2130-2200hrs to pack, check out then drive to the airport to catch their 0130hrs flight (27 March).

That is ridiculously late to leave. The drive alone could take 2 hours.

To book another flight when you have missed your flight is big money. I bet they were under stress
 
That is ridiculously late to leave. The drive alone could take 2 hours.

To book another flight when you have missed your flight is big money. I bet they were under stress

According to the commentary from the locals, the drive (2 hours 20 minutes by google maps) takes a whole lot longer at night due to the North/South portion of the road being unlit, treacherous turns and entirely through jungle and avoided at night by locals due to that and a 4 wheel drive recommended. I think they were going much slower through there than they expected they would be IMO.
 
According to the commentary from the locals, the drive (2 hours 20 minutes by google maps) takes a whole lot longer at night due to the North/South portion of the road being unlit, treacherous turns and entirely through jungle and avoided at night by locals due to that and a 4 wheel drive recommended. I think they were going much slower through there than they expected they would be IMO.

That would explain why it took them 3.5 hours (ish) to do a 2 hour journey, to the toll booth.
 
The disco was the 25th March, the full night before they left. The disco bartender hooked them up with a friend of his so that the four of them could spend the 26th March day at the waterfall visit and horseback ride. After their visit to the waterfall they returned to the hotel and shared the bottle of rum with the Canadian couple whom they parted ways with at some time between 2130-2200hrs to pack, check out then drive to the airport to catch their 0130hrs flight (27 March).

Thank you for the clarification. I had the days confused.
 
That is ridiculously late to leave. The drive alone could take 2 hours.

To book another flight when you have missed your flight is big money. I bet they were under stress

And in the reviews that I’ve read about Spirit Air (they weren’t that great), they won’t just rebook you for a fee like other airlines. You can’t make your flight or you have an emergency that you can’t travel at that time, too bad, you’re forfeiting that air fare and buying a new one at full price.
JMO
 
Trust me; I get it. I am just basing my opinion on actual interviews and things/statements made by the police and the Chief (those are "officials") or released to the media by them at this point in time.

If you wish me to change my mind, please link me to anything, anything, from those same officials, or last people to spend time with them, or any source at all that hints at foul play, another car being involved, mugging etc. If it's in here, I've totally missed it.

Officials have made statements about their suspected probable cause and until I see surveillance from tolls, roads, business' etc showing this couple being mugged, another car involved, or an entire nation and it's people covering up to protect their tourism, I'm just going to stay with my gut and apply Occam's Razor to the released facts and statements we know thus far from officials and those last people to interact with them.

In any other case here on WS, the statements of the last known people to interact with a victim(s) are dissected for clues about what may have happened/who may have murdered them etc. The same thing is happening here.

I do not need to link anything, we have all seen the absolutely varying media articles. I have no desire to change your mind and understand it as well.

In the same breath, you can't change my mind because my mind is simply not made up yet. I truly am not going to judge anything based on a lack of documentation and officials that are not even from our own country.

So, no disrespect here either, we are not going to change the other's thoughts. I am undecided and will remain so for now.

Of course there is the Occam's Razor basis and in many cases that is where I am at too. This one, I have no reason to be there. There is as much one way as the other to question. I also do not think Occam's Razor applies here--it takes a lot of assumptions from her overconcern all day long to GPS not working to other things to assume it was simply an accident, they were speeding, alcohol was a factor and more does not fit Occam. The lack of any documentation and things that are not exactly truly personal, like check-out time leaves that open, as does flight, airline and flight time. To me, Occam's Razor applies when there are not odd things and it all fits well or most likely makes the most sense. If our officials and the family have questions, I certainly still do.

Quite honestly, I have an inquiring mind, am not unhappy about it and hope I never lose it and no one will ever change that.

And I won't change yours.

And I am fine with that :) And assume you are as well :)
 
Looking at that car, to me it looks like it had burned. There’s nothing distinguishable left to the inside, no seats or seat belts. I think I could make out the steering wheel but that’s it. I also did not see any tires/wheels on the vehicle. Could it have rolled, exploded in fire and went into the sea extinguishing it soon after?

I have to say that was my first reaction too. A burned out shell. No tires, etc. I wonder how many other things besides his body have washed up or been found other than a phone? Just sayin'... There has to be metal, car parts, luggage, purse, small parts, big parts, tires...
 
Thank you for your response. I agree with you. And as I mentioned earlier that though I am a little behind with the news regarding this, what you commented is exactly what I had gathered from reading public info. What a sad and crazy situation all the way around. Just the vehicle's seats? Wth are they? Even though we are talking about a full size vehicle in Hart family murder crash, plummeting 75 ft over a cliff, I still cannot believe that this car looks like this. I cannot believe they supposedly find a cell phone I Phone in that crashed car but no luggage or a purse with ID jammed in the seats? I guess I am just not good with accident scenes but it seems wild to me, considering many that I have read about and cases I follow , IE. Schoharie Ny Limo Crash, kills 20. sorry to babble. Thanks for your input. l

I agree. So far I see no reason to go with what they have said. No dots connect whatsoever and not one bit of documentation. I have read much of the Hart family case. Yes, a cell phone but not a bit of luggage, car parts, nor anything else, but amazingly his body.

So far it is nonsensical or absurd. Those waves pretty much destroyed that car; they certainly would a cell phone. Maybe it is just me, but that makes no sense whatsoever.
 
It would be nice to see some of these key details confirmed as a fact. We could pinpoint exact locations (assuming if they used credit cards that night )

Just a summary of my questions....

-what time did they check out
-who was driving
-where/when/what time were their credit cards last used
-flight departure time
-what time 911 was called about Portia
-was car in drive when it went over the cliff? (if enough of it is left to make this determination)
-GPS data from car (again...if it can be retrieved)
-pings and cellular data from both phones

That's it for now....
JMO
 
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I have to say that was my first reaction too. A burned out shell. No tires, etc. I wonder how many other things besides his body have washed up or been found other than a phone? Just sayin'... There has to be metal, car parts, luggage, purse, small parts, big parts, tires...

I've been thinking about how that vehicle looked as they brought it out of the ocean and the photo after they brought it onto the wrecker, linked upthread. If the car had rolled prior to entering the ocean, there most likely would be some sort of debris trail left on the ground, IMO. If the car entered the ocean more or less intact, that must be a terribly strong current (linked reports upthread had locals calling this area "the blender") to only have what we saw photos/video of remaining. If the current bashed that vehicle into such disintegration, those parts/components must be fairly lightweight and not very sturdy, so they would most likely wash up on a beach nearby possibly. Surely something other than a body washed ashore from this wreck. IMO.

ETA: The tires and wheels being gone make me wonder if the lug nuts are gone.

ETA2: I went back and looked at the photo/article bradfordsleuth linked yesterday, and no tires/wheels are even attached to the vehicle in the front, or the engine either, from what I can see, if I looked at the wreckage correctly. Couldn't see rear tires/wheels in photo. It really looks like vehicle was dismantled before retrieval.
 
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