Dr. Barry Logan testimony (forensic toxicologist and analytical chemist)

Discussion in 'Witness Testimonies and Closing Arguments' started by wenwe4, Jun 23, 2011.

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  1. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    Barry Logan - forensic toxicologist and analytical chemist - describe board certfication testing...

    currently teaching @ Arcadia U in Philly and used to teach @ U of Wash ..

    tested tissues, fluid and breath

    familiar with cryotrapping - used with GCMS - concentrate a sample to make more detectable....background in Grad school - testing chemicals in auto exhaust...collection of smoke traps in mylar bags - introduced GCMS and cryotrapping and into the GCMS -
    reviewer of journals? yes for a number of journals...forensic science, toxicology, analytical chemistry....research paper submitted for publication - editor provides it to people in field - reivew and critique - based on reviews editor decides to publish

    work for MMS labs - Nat. Dir. for forensic services - largest lab in US - do coroners, ME's and toxicology for all 50 states....board cert. toxicologist help with data, review results, what to test to serve client community, how test validated and verified before put into production and medical/legal cases review and provide report and testify.....Director of the Lab- separate responsiblity took on last year....Exec. Dir for ed. non-profit and science ed for Graduate students and highschool students for forensic science....where does money go to you? no to the company

    what depts in MMS lab- vary dept...screening - presences of metals....liquid gcms and gcms - analytical chemistry and toxicology 80 peer reviewed published....analytical chemist does? apply knowledge of properties of compounds and determine best way to separate them background, quantify, identify, understand chemistry of compound, how to separate from other compounds it is present with, and what instruments to use.

    belong to Am. academy forensic science professional org largest about 6000 members =leadership roles with this organ....secy & chair toxicology, vp of organization, second term as chair - counsel, drugs & alcohol, counsels

    Scientific working group in forensic science arena - groups developed within community, first unofficially got together, later they publish guidelines and standards to use....FBI has taken over and more than 20 scientific working groups there a group working on decomp. analysis? object - approach

  2. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    objection sustained - continue

    DS w/Logan....background and experience w/accredation and certification of forensic labs., he is board certified by Amer. board of toxicologist....accretation for labs - certain standards to perform analysis and train staff and document....served on the board and involved in developing standards for ...his lab became accredited with aBFT....object- overrule....currently works @ one that accredited....MMS lab has crime lab - drug test and analysis....that has a different accredation...on site audits and inspections yearly....

    how many organizations involved in certify or acredit labs? 2
    audit process involvement - yes currently do for ABFT - done since program introduced and historically done ones for substance and mental health for work place drug testing regulated by Fed. Govt - SAMSa - substance abuse and mental health.....

    analytical chemistry, forensic science, gcms, forensic toxicology....

    JA = want to voir dire on other than forensic tox.

    what kind of analytical chemistry perform other than toxicology? uh well...separated into 2....analytical chemistry is gcms - wide range of chemical compounds....when last time test for non-toxicological part of daily duties - outside of toxicolgy what do w/analytical chemistry

    analysis of drugs and evidence - mysterious white powder, industrial chemicals, poisons, - director or crime lab portion of MMS labs - analytical chemistry hugely broad field....not an expert in entire field - mainly toxicology and methods used in toxicology methods...experience with cryotrapping was over 20 years ago as a grad student? correct

    (Dr. takes a big long swig water) - not an expert in all forensic science - correct? correct.

    object to anything other than forensic in chemistry with honors...HHBp if going to be long one need to come the side.

    I served on board of Directors for Amer. Academy of forensic science - way to bring all disciplines together for commonaltiy in standards in good practice/professional development/education..

    Witness is expert in forensic toxicologist ONLY per HHbp

    use GCMS in lab, provided with analytical records from FBI re: evidence from trunk of kc vehicle, series of reports from Oakridge Lab, related to chemicals from evidence from vehicle...documents regarding investigation of case including autopsy....what articles have you read? object-overrule....I wasn't provided with articles but I did review ones related.

    Reviewed 2008 article from Dr. Arpad Vass re: decomp odors - odors of decomposing remains in journal of forensic science.....forensic labs - use tripod with paper pad

    American society of crime lab directors

    it apppears JA is quite animated with DS....DS pleading her case....

    JB quietly nodding @ HHBP -

    toxicology means biological chemistry

  3. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    Requirements for Am Soc of....object-sustain

    difference between forensic lab and research...forensic labs do research but research labs discover new things for applications in medicine,technology, space travel - variety different fields - properties of compounds or chemicals...research labs conducted proficiency testing? object- sustain you have any evidence thatOakridge is a forensic lab - no evidence it has been...Oakridge has quality control standards in place-object-sustain

    what is a validation test in lab? when lab develops a test - apply to forensic appliction must be characteristics - false positive and false negative - designed for what it tests for- objection overrule

    what kinds of material to apply test - different types of material cause interference....

    validation testing in this case - object basis knowledge -sustain est. foundation

    specifically identify them for me ...reports dates and authors etc...I can if I refer to my records =- you may

  4. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    Provided with lab notes - regarding testing and evaluating in this case..,..forensic from OcSo dated 4/28/09 summarizes final report of Oakridge authored by Drs Vass, Wise & martin...reviewed depo testimony and notes....bench notes....commentary on some of the things happened while analysis being performed - when test didn't work - or an unexpected result ...sometime very broad summary of results of test was....identified samples of test duiring course of analysis..

    result of review reached a conclusion regards to procedures and metholdogy by Vass and Wise - object - sustained

    evidence of validation studies that were performed - object- approach

  5. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    If you don't have written procedures cannot determine 2 people do test same way to prove replicatable.....JA - move to strike witness testimony beyond expertise in toxicology - sidebar

  6. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    DS w/Logan after reviewing material any documentation of protection against contamination - no evidence of what might been taken to protect of evidence quality assurance referenced discussed..object - sustained - overruled can answer if can you can

    no evidence of QA - process by which you document performance of test....challenge it - testing known samples not contaminated by carryover....proficiency testing - blind performer of the test - object- beyond scope - sustained

    review material whether not documentation proper control samples manner of whic - object - sustaine rephrase

    proper control discussed? no...what is a control - known amount of chemicals ....object - this is just too far - beyond expertise in toxicology -sustain rephrase

    use controls? .....object -sustain

    reviewed report and records other material = did you have an opinion regard to ....specificially bench notes as they discuss the manner in which testing on the samples ....negative controls ....rephrase this question

    bench notes cause you concern about manner which test was conducted....object - sustained

    what is understanding regard to blank samples on bench notes - pg 73 - object sustain

    DS tries again....

    can you define what a blank sample is in your field for using GCMS? - blank sample known not to contain elements you are trying to look for no contamination of the test....what happens if blank sample is run but computer is not changedd.....object- outside expertise....

    run blank sample - don't make changes forget 0 and go back....JA object- DS asks appraoch

  7. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    what effect run blank sample but not change machine can affect results...if you don't have machine set up right - can't get a reliable result

    when perform test known to contain particular compound....
    this is why you have a protocol
    motion to strike - granted

    significant run blank sample - show positive for chemical and chemical should not be there....blank sample says something present - know problem with test performance or machine....make sure test or techinique doesn't give false postive result...

    closed valve - destroy or mess up a run what does that mean? i don't know ...that question is too - cant answer way was asked.....issues with valve being closed - bench notes reviewed from Oakridge - sometimes when test run valves not closed - sometimes result failed or gave wrong result---what about triple sorbent trap freezing (object-sustain)

    lab to change technique in middle of experiment (objet- sustain rephrase)
    when reviewed notes taken in this case - any techniques changed in mid of experiment? yes ...conditions of analysis changed over several weeks to analyse specimin to ....

    object - sustain

    what does that mean to you - object-sustain

    when you run a standard to determine if machine is reading a standard - typically done on same day when run sample-yes why? ensure you are testing evidence and samples are did not occur - do you know how many times? IT DID NOT Occur...explain...

    I didn't count how many occassions it didn't occur - standards of proper functioning of instrument was days or weeks later.

    Oleic acid is fatty acid - found in? object - outside expertise - ovrrule

    run test where there fatty acids - prevelent in all kinds bio materials - show up every day in tox labs.....testing in some form of fatty acids approximate? thousands of times...familiar with and engaged in testing with palmetic, steric, myristic and oleic acids....what contain myristic acids? beyond expert - object - overrule

    fatty acids occur in all kinds bio material - animal, plant, household products in dairy, meat, cheese butter and milk,

    if you were to test item contain all of the above - on a paper towel - toxicologist what conclusion reach regard those four items - object beyond expertise - overrule

    conclude those fatty acids present in paper towel.....caused from cheese? yes

    percentage of which fatty acid may occur higher - if have all 4 in a particular substance...ratio of fatty acids in meat pizzaa? object- sustain unless establish foundation

    relative ratio of fatty acids in pizza andfood stuffs - reviewed literature - opinion ? object - sidebar

  8. mombomb

    mombomb New Member

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    Jury coming back


    He is a forensic toxicologist and analytical chemist.

    BS in chemistry and PhD. in forensic toxicology - both from University of Glasgow in Scotland. Post-doctoral experience at the University of Tennessee. He is certified by the American Board of Forensic Toxicologists.

    He has experience with GCMS. He has used this equipment on a daily basis throughout this career. He is familiar and has used cryo-trapping.

    He is a reviewer for a number of journals.

    He is currently employed by MNS labs in Pennsylvania as the National Director of Forensic Services - one of the largest forensic labs in the U.S. His duties are to oversee the toxicologists, review data, meet with clients and participates in formulating new testing, how they are to be validated and he consults on medical-legal cases.

    He is involved in a non-profit and does consulting work. The money he receives from consulting work goes to the company.

    MNS Lab has about a dozen departments based on analytical methods.

    He has published 80 peer reviewed articles.

    An analytical chemist applies knowledge of chemical compound properties to determine how to separate them to make sure they are properly identified and then to quantify it.

    He is a member of AAFS, SFT, IAFT, ICADTS, National Safety Council...... He has served....

    OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED

    Served as secretary and chair of toxicology, vice-president and now secretary of the AAFS.

    Scientific working groups determine consensus and best methods of testing, publish guidelines. This has now been taken over by the FBI. There are over 20 groups. There is a group for decomp odor analysis?

    OBJECTION - relevance - SIDEBAR #3 (10:56-10:58)


    Background with accrediting forensic lab? Certification deals with individuals. Accreditation deals with labs.


    He has been involved in 2 boards that oversee labs. He has been involved in auditing labs related to work-place drug testing.

    Witness offered as expert in analytical chemistry, toxicology, forensic sciences and lab accreditation.

    JA - requests voir dire


    Analytical chemistry other than that related to toxicology? Hard to separate.
    It is part of his daily activities. Outside of toxicological exams, what do you do in analytical chemistry? He is also responsible for the portion of the lab that does analytical chemistry that is not biological.

    Not all of his work deals with drugs. Also chemicals and poisons. He does not consider himself an expert in every aspect of analytical chemistry.

    His last experience with cryo-trapping was as a grad student over 20 years ago.

    He is not an expert in all areas of forensic science.

    JA - I object to any certification other than forensic toxicology.

    DS - As vice-president of AAFS, he served on the Board of Directors...

    HHJBP - Witness is accepted only in the area of forensic toxicology.


    He was given analytical records from FBI regarding analysis of evidence from the trunk, reports from Oakridge, misc other documents related to the investigation including the autopsy.

    What articles have you read?


    He was not provided any articles in this case, but he had some in his possession already. He has reviewed the 2008 article by Dr. Vass regarding decomp odors.

    Regarding forensic labs, his lab is a forensic lab accreddited by the American Society of Crime Lab Directors.

    SIDEBAR #4 requested by JA (11:12-11:19)

    What are requirements...

    OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED

    A forensic lab analyzes evidence for a Court of Law, they do research. Research labs are typically academic to discover new things where the application is not clear.

    Research labs in this case, proficiency testing?


    Is Oakridge a forensic lab? He has no evidence that it has been certified.

    Quality control?


    What is a validation test in a lab? When new test is developed and before it is applied to evidence the test has to be fully characterized and whether it has limitations....

    OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED

    It has to be established as to what materials the test is applied to.

    Was validation testing done in this case?

    OBJECTION - basis of knowledge - SUSTAINED

    He was provided with bench notes from Oakridge by Dr. Wise and Dr. Vass relative to the testing of the evidence in this case as well as additional items related to the testing and the method. He reviewed the final forensic report sent to OCSO dated 4/28/09 summarizing the Oakridge results. He also reviewed Dr. Vass and Dr. Wise's depos.

    The bench notes were a commentary on things that happened during the analysis, when the test didn't work or an unexpected result.

    As a result of his review, bench notes, articles and other items, he reached conclusions regarding the procedures and methodologies...

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    Bench notes show validation?

    OBJECTION - SIDEBAR #5 requested by JA at 11:28-11:30

    Established published protocols for testing done at Oakridge? No formal protocols. The test itself ...

    OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED

    What happens if a test is conducted without established protocols? With no written procedure there is no way to know the test is done the same way every time, the equipment is set the same, if results are reproducible, false positives? It is critical to have a written procedure.

    OBJECTION - move to strike as beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    SIDEBAR #6 requested by HHJBP (11:32-11:36)

    Was there any documentation of protection against contamination? There is no evidence of what protection might have been taken. What happens, in general...

    OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED

    Quality assurance programs referenced?

    OBJECTION - absence of info - OVERRULED

    He saw no evidence of any quality assurance that was relevant to the analysis.

    Quality assurance is the process by which you document the performance of the test, challenge it with a known composition, testing known unknowns. It also consists of proficiency testing.

    OBJECTION - beyond scope - SUSTAINED

    Was there documentation...

    OBJECTION - compound - SUSTAINED

    Proper controls were not discussed. A control is a sample that contains known amounts.

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    Controls are used in toxicology.

    OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED

    Opinion on bench notes as they discuss how testing was performed on control samples?

    OBJECTION - outside expertise and attacking other expert - SUSTAINED

    What is your understanding of the blank samples?

    OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED

    A blank sample is a sample known not to contain the chemicals you are trying to test for to insure no contamination.

    If a blank sample is run and a computer is not changed?

    OBJECTION - relevance and outside expertise - OVERRULED

    OBJECTION - also as to hypothetical - DS requests SIDEBAR #7 (11:43-11:45)

    What is the effect of running a blank sample and not changing the machine? If the machine is not set up appropriately you won't get a reliable result.

    Effect of not seeing a positive control when there should be? If you are performing a test and the compound isn't present, there is a problem either with the way the test is performed...

    OBJECTION - not responsive and move to strike - SUSTAINED MOTION GRANTED

    If you are running a blank sample that is known not to contain a chemical and you get a result that it is present it is either contamination or the way the test is performed.

    Purpose of blank sample is to ensure no false positives.

    Significance of a closed valve destroying a run? He can't answer.

    There were issues with valves being closed in the bench notes. Some times the valves weren't set in the appropriate condition causing the test to fail or giving a wrong result.

    Triple-sorbent trap freezing?

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    If technique is changed in the middle...

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise and relevance - SUSTAINED

    Techniques changed in middle? Condition of analysis was changed over several weeks in order to correct problems with the instrument. Effect of this?

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    When you run a standard, is that done on the same day as you run the sample to ensure that you are testing the evidence under the same conditions as the known sample. This did not occur in this case? He did not count how many times this occurred.

    Oleic acid is a fatty acid. What is this found in?

    OBJECTION - outside expertise - OVERRULED

    Fatty acids are prevalent in all kinds of biological materials and he has tested it thousands of times. Also palmitic and steric and myristic acid.

    What contains myristic acid?

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - OVERRULED

    These appear in many biologic materials - in dairy and meat products.

    Fatty acids in the paper towel could be caused by a number of items including cheese.

    Are you familiar with the ratio of fatty acids in pizza?

    OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED

    He has reviewed materials on this subject.

    OBJECTION BY JA - multiple, may I approach - SIDEBAR #8 (11:56-11:58)

    Recess for lunch until 1:30 (11:58)
  9. wenwe4

    wenwe4 Active Member

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    DS w/Dr. Logan - 4 fatty acids can be found in food, biologic, and others in this case - can you tell me where those were found? on a papertowel

    JA = your testimony these 4 fatty acids occur in combination oleic, palmetic, mysteric, ....found in oily vegetable like in palm oil...and in decomposing animal fat (object=overrule - he has answered questiong - untimely

    milk cheese and butter fat same in adipocere? same fatty acids.....four fatty acids in both and additional carbon chains in milk, cheese and butter - 10 carbons....

    carbon in steric- 18
    plametic - 14

    dairy products = other fatty acids with 6 - 20 compounds carbon

    other carbons in milk cheese and butter not found in adiopocere? yes if other compounds aretested for...

    no special challenges on Gcms - can happen with any kind of evidence - particularly forensic samples - rarely pure - always problems

    standard methodology likely to have fewer challenges - scientist do when faced with challenges that are not in protocol...develop new protocols....acceptable scientific procedure? yes

    general principle published in forensic science journals.....steps and procedure not published? Journal of Forensic science does not give step by step process...collect sample, triple sorbent thru gcms - ...those are published yes

    room air contaminents in ambient air - example of a blank - what should scientist do when blank shows unexpected results- investigate to ensure instrumentation,...stop what doing, figure problem, correct it and run it again? yes!

    human error forget close a valve - proper procedure stop correct and start over - yes.

    that precisely what was done when these challenges were faced....problem was diagnosed...notes from Dr. Vass why failed noted, corrected ran again, reported results....yes...

    no further questions

    DS w/Barry Logan

    asked about challenges - what does that mean? unusual or unexpected about the sample being tested...what eaffect do challenges have on reliablity? object to reliablity in abstract DS object to JA.... HHBP - object (JA) sustain

    how to collect air in trunk car - carpet samples - how much carpet how thick - published protocols on how to collect carpet on trunk of a car...what significance does that have in this case? outside expertise - sustain

    all materials you have - can you reproduce exactly this experiment by Dr. Vass? NO - a lot of detail missing.....extablity of way to know if way I did test was same way Oakrdige did the test

    JA- your lab couldn't do the carpet samples if you wanted to? we would be able to do that test...alright - show cans.....have you ever seen any of those? NO if you would have been sent any of those would you have tested? Objection! sidebar!

  10. mombomb

    mombomb New Member

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    1:29 witness coming back to the stand.

    1:30 Jury coming back in


    Where were the four fatty acids found in this case? On a paper towel.

    No further questions.


    All three fatty acids found in combination in vegetable material?


    Yes, they are - in oily vegetables like palm oil. He is not aware of them being present in cabbage, but they are present in decomposition material.


    OBJECTION - OVERRULED - untimely, question was already answered

    the same fatty acids are present in adipocere as in dairy products.

    Is the carbon chain the same in both? The four compounds are found in adipocere and dairy products.

    Other products found in milk cheese and butter than in adipocere? Yes.

    When faced with a challenge with no protocol, they should develop a new protocol.

    Any kind of forensic samples can have special challanges.

    Journal of Forensic Science does not give step by step methodology for general GCMS testing. Some of it is.

    A blank is a sample of room air? When a blank shows some unexpected results, it should be investigated as to whether contamination or machine settings. Stop, make a correction, then run again. The same is true when one finds an open valve error. That was what was reflected in the bench notes.

    No further questions.


    What do you think "Challenges" mean? Something unusual or unexpected in the study.

    What do challenges...


    Are there published protocols in how to collect air from the trunk of a car? No, there aren't any.

    Are there published protocols on how to collect carpet from the trunk of a car? No.


    Could you reproduce this test? No, there is a lot of info not in the bench notes. There would be no way for him to know if he did the test the same way.


    Your lab doesn't do this kind of test does it? We would be capable of doing it.

    He was shown Exhibits 114, 133, 322, 323. He has never seen any of them. If you were given them, could you have tested them?

    SIDEBAR #9 (1:43-1:50)

    Jury excused - 1:50

    HHJBP - Mr. Ashton - your argument. You may want to look at Hayes v State.

    JA - Overton v State.

    HHJBP - On Hayes - read Headnote #8

    JA - State's position is that by defense asking if he could reproduce the results and his answer was no - in Overton - that opens the door as to why he couldn't or whether he tried.

    HHJBP - what in Overton suggests this?

    JA - He sites Overton and Hayes - burden shifting. The defense's question went to that level.

    DS - Doesn't think it is even close. Her questions had to do with the testing in this case - that it could not be reproduced. It is not burden shifting. It is clear that this test can not be reproduced. We move to strike the comment and ask for curative instructions. The Court is correct, Hayes is very clear. The doctor was correct in his answer when he said no because it was not clear as to what Dr. Wise or Dr. Vass did.

    HHJBP: FSC in Hayes addressed a proposition of law dealing with burden shifting - shifting the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defendant. His honor then read the facts of that case. He then described the Overton findings.

    The Defense's objection to line of questioning is SUSTAINED in that it would shift the burden.

    HHJBP - Before lunch, he asked the defense to read Cuban v. State dealing with attacking the validity of another expert's opinion. This witness has not been qualified as an expert in the area of air sample analysis. My order during Frye hearing was that this witness was not qualified to render an opinion in that area. He is qualified in analytical chemistry. I would tread very likely in this area, because, while you did not open the door, it looks like you are trying to get it cracked open and Mr. Ashton is looking like he is trying to run a mack truck through the door. You can't use the burden of proof as a shield and then turn around and use it as a club against the state.

    DS - she objects to JA going up to the jury with the bags of evidence. She wants a curative instruction to the jury.

    HHJBP - Well, you did not object to it. If I do that, the only thing it is going to do is an instant replay on that. If you are asking for instructions to disregard last line of questioning, I can do that.

    DS - she feels that would be just fine.

    CM - Curative instructions found in first quote His Honor read would be appropriate and he would request that.

    JA - As to which question? The question was, if you had been sent one of those, could you have tested it? At this point, he does not feel a curative instruction is necessary.

    HHJBP - out of an abundance of caution, I think it is necessary.

    HHJBP - to JA you have a right to proffer,


    Could you take a sample from one of these and put it in a Tevlar bag and heat it and then extract an amount of air, inject it into a GCMS with cryo-trapping if they had such a machine. There is not sufficient info in the paper or notes to set the machine properly. He is not sure at this point what additional info is needed.

    HHJBP - to the defense, if you are trying to impeach an expert, you cannot impeach the validity of the expert's opinion. You have to do that by showing another expert's opinion is different. That is the problem with this whole line of questioning.

    HHJBP - Both sides read Network Publications.

    2:23 - 10 minute recess.
  11. mombomb

    mombomb New Member

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    2:36 (attorneys at sidebar)

    Jury has been gone since 1:50

    HHJBP read proposed curative instruction - no objections by either party.

    Jury returned at 2:42

    It is a well settled principal of law that the burden of proof is upon the State of Florida to prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendant has no obligation to prove or disprove anything


    His lab doesn't perform air sample analysis. He hasn't done air sample anlaysis since he was a grad student over 20 years ago.

    Witness is excused at 2:44
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