Dr G. to do special about Caylee

LambChop

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I look at it this way, and this is just my opinion.....Caylee made sure that duct tape stayed right there in all that weather, holding her jaw in place, to send to message to us all.....please don't let this woman have any more children. jmo
 

LambChop

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And didn't defense spend a lot of money on Dr. Spitz to testify that "someone" took the skull and placed duct tape on it after KC had gone to jail. So essentially defense is agreeing that there was duct tape around Caylee's face. The disagreement is when it was placed there. And I think the fact that when Dr. Spitz unhinged the jaw it was quite obvious to the majority that the jaw does not stay attached. Then further confirmed that it is not so easy, even for Dr. Spitz, to put that jaw back in place easily. He, in fact, never did and he's the expert. jmo
 

zippitydoda

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fwiw, no where in the autopsy report does it state that tape was "wrapped around" the face, mouth and nose. It actually states that tape was attached to the hair and overlying the mandible and maxilla, per Dr Utz (the first ME to examine the remains). Dr Shultz states that it can be INFERRED that the tape was what could have held the mandible in place. However, it is also noted that plant growth had permeated the remains. IMO, this too could have held the mandible. And that is exactly what CSI Hanson, Dr. Shultz and Dr. Utz testified to in court. No expert testified that the duct tape was responsible for holding the mandible in place during the decompositional process in court. Also, IMO, the muck could have been responsible for the position of the skull and mandible. I don't see how the duct tape could have held the mandible. The skin, hair and duct tape would have loosened before the jaw muscles decomposed. The PT theory the tape was applied to the skin, then skin loosened and fell off the face but somehow the tape held enough to keep the mandible in anatomical postion? IMO, I just can't buy it. Again, all JMOO.

ETA: As to Dr. Spitz, his theory was just a smokescreen put on by the defense.

Personally, I like it when posters use the actual facts and post a link to confirm them.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf

Page 2
C. Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla
1. Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs
2. Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible attached soft tissue beneath the duct tape

Page 3
"The circumstances of death are that this toddler child, with no known medical history, was not reported missing to authorities for approximately 30 days. This child's remains were eventually found in a wooded, overgrown area, discarded with two trash bags and a laundry bag. Although there is no trauma evident on the skeleton, there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair. This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."

Page 11
Item #2 consists of a paper bag containing a juvenile human skull, matted hair, tape and leaf litter. The skull is removed from the bag, photographed, and xrays are obtained.

The calvarium is totally exposed and there is only a very small amount of adherent soil and leaf litter. No soft tissue remains. Multiple strands of medium brown straight hair extend over the calvarium in the sagittal and coronal planes. They are attached to a nest-like mass of matted hair which covers the basilar and lower posterior skull, including inferior portions of the mandible. Plant roots have grown into and over the surface of the hair mat. Attached to the hair and overlying the posterior mandible and maxilla are several pieces of overlapping gray tape. The tape has an open weave fabric backing and is delaminating. The tape is removed and allowed to dry. The matted hair is removed from the skull. Plant roots permeate the mat and there are multiple small roughly circular, irregular defects in the mat, suggestive of insect predation artifact. The hair is permitted to dry pending additional examination. Preliminary examination of the skull reveals no evidence of trauma.
 

zachs mema

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Once a child is born, I believe the state keeps up with them regarding their shots. When my daughter was born, the state of NJ sent me a letter telling me where I could get her shots if I could not afford them. I can't see Cindy not getting her 3 month, six month, etc., shots. What I can see her do is treat Caylee for everything else. I know now babies are supposed to always sleep on their backs, and that moving their heads from side to side will help from getting a flat scalp. Dirt bag kc didn't have it in her to do even that. Caylee the most beautiful angel did not stand a chance. Not with the mother, or the grandmother. I'm a grandmother, and I don't know how Cindy can live with herself. She knew how irresponsible her daughter was, and did nothing to protect Caylee. I hold Cindy responsible. George didin't have the walnuts to do anything about it. I will be watching this, as Dr. G will finally tell the disgusting 12 what should have been obvious. I'm still not dealing with this well. Rest in Peace sweet Caylee
 

LambChop

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Once a child is born, I believe the state keeps up with them regarding their shots. When my daughter was born, the state of NJ sent me a letter telling me where I could get her shots if I could not afford them. I can't see Cindy not getting her 3 month, six month, etc., shots. What I can see her do is treat Caylee for everything else. I know now babies are supposed to always sleep on their backs, and that moving their heads from side to side will help from getting a flat scalp. Dirt bag kc didn't have it in her to do even that. Caylee the most beautiful angel did not stand a chance. Not with the mother, or the grandmother. I'm a grandmother, and I don't know how Cindy can live with herself. She knew how irresponsible her daughter was, and did nothing to protect Caylee. I hold Cindy responsible. George didin't have the walnuts to do anything about it. I will be watching this, as Dr. G will finally tell the disgusting 12 what should have been obvious. I'm still not dealing with this well. Rest in Peace sweet Caylee

I'd like to say GA more than likely did say something because it was shortly after Caylee was born that he left. He was home during the day so he would have known how well, or more likely not, Caylee was being cared for. My guess is the only way he could come home was to agree to let Cindy handle everything. Maybe in his small way he thought he could at least keep an eye on things to protect Caylee the best way he could. GA said himself that he felt KC had some major problems. That she wasn't in a good place at the time. I think Caylee meant the world to him.

Caylee meant no more to KC than a squirrel that might have run across the road in front of her while she was driving. No more, no less. jmo
 

ExpectingUnicorns

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fwiw, no where in the autopsy report does it state that tape was "wrapped around" the face, mouth and nose. It actually states that tape was attached to the hair and overlying the mandible and maxilla, per Dr Utz (the first ME to examine the remains). Dr Shultz states that it can be INFERRED that the tape was what could have held the mandible in place. However, it is also noted that plant growth had permeated the remains. IMO, this too could have held the mandible. And that is exactly what CSI Hanson, Dr. Shultz and Dr. Utz testified to in court. No expert testified that the duct tape was responsible for holding the mandible in place during the decompositional process in court. Also, IMO, the muck could have been responsible for the position of the skull and mandible. I don't see how the duct tape could have held the mandible. The skin, hair and duct tape would have loosened before the jaw muscles decomposed. The PT theory the tape was applied to the skin, then skin loosened and fell off the face but somehow the tape held enough to keep the mandible in anatomical postion? IMO, I just can't buy it. Again, all JMOO.

ETA: As to Dr. Spitz, his theory was just a smokescreen put on by the defense.

I don't understand the importance of whether the duct tape, hair, plant growth or "muck" held the mandible in place. It may have been any single one or a combination of many. The importance of the duct tape is that it shouldn't have been there in the first place. And the first logical INFERENCE is that the tape was there first in order for the other forces to have had enough time to also develop/hold it in place.

INFERENCE begs reasoning. Reasoning is not a bad thing. What reasoning could satisfy a crimeless purpose for the duct tape's presence?

The Pinellas 12 did a stellar job of ignoring every inference from the state and swallowing all of those from the defense. IMO they ignored reason and common sense. But the duct tape? OMGosh, you'd have to turn yourself into a pretzel to make the presence of the duct tape an innocent INFERENCE/finding.

Ugh. I was so hoping I was over trying to advocate for Caylee because it's such an intense thing and I can't even understand why there still seems to be a need to do so. :sigh:
 

Deeni

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I don't know that it was pointed out as abuse as much as it appears Caylee had a condition where the skull was not forming properly. The only abuse I could see from that would be who was her doctor and why didn't he find it when it appears it was treatable. jmo

This. Synostosis is not from being neglected. It is just something that happens and can require surgery to correct. I wonder if anyone cared enough to notice :(
 

LambChop

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This. Synostosis is not from being neglected. It is just something that happens and can require surgery to correct. I wonder if anyone cared enough to notice :(

Either the doctor did not catch it which I find hard to believe because we could see it in one of the pictures of Caylee, or KC did not make those appointments that may have been scheduled for Caylee. They are medical records so we will probably never know for sure. jmo
 

Nore

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This. Synostosis is not from being neglected. It is just something that happens and can require surgery to correct. I wonder if anyone cared enough to notice :(

----------------
This was talked about in the autopsy.
 

Nore

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OMG!!!!!! it is 12:15am. on Saturday Dec.31 2011. I Cannot find a trace of said program!! I am having shivvering fits!!!!!! I will continue looking. I have checked D/Fit and also TLC....:banghead::crazy:


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FB has her listed for Jan. 1st,2012 at 8/7c on TLC..following Sunday on D/Fit. This is what has been reported all along! Thank God.
 

Aedrys

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I don't understand the importance of whether the duct tape, hair, plant growth or "muck" held the mandible in place. It may have been any single one or a combination of many. The importance of the duct tape is that it shouldn't have been there in the first place. And the first logical INFERENCE is that the tape was there first in order for the other forces to have had enough time to also develop/hold it in place.

INFERENCE begs reasoning. Reasoning is not a bad thing. What reasoning could satisfy a crimeless purpose for the duct tape's presence?

The Pinellas 12 did a stellar job of ignoring every inference from the state and swallowing all of those from the defense. IMO they ignored reason and common sense. But the duct tape? OMGosh, you'd have to turn yourself into a pretzel to make the presence of the duct tape an innocent INFERENCE/finding.

Ugh. I was so hoping I was over trying to advocate for Caylee because it's such an intense thing and I can't even understand why there still seems to be a need to do so. :sigh:

I don't get it either. There is no plausible, innocent, logical reason that duct tape should have been there in the first place. That's what gets me is that supporters somehow try to rationalize the duct tape away. That makes no sense. Even the state of Florida ruled in another case that there is no good reason duct tape should EVER be on someone's face. I just don't get how the placement makes the duct tape any less heinous or criminal. The fact that duct tape was there at ALL suggests this wasn't a simple drowning but a MURDER. No sane person covers up an accident by with duct tape to make it look like a murder. It just galls me that that one juror said there was no evidence of a crime. HELLO, THE DUCT TAPE! If that is not evidence of a crime, I don't know what is!

And how many threads did we go round and round about this? And people STILL pop up and question the duct tape. Unbelievable.
 

Nore

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Either the doctor did not catch it which I find hard to believe because we could see it in one of the pictures of Caylee, or KC did not make those appointments that may have been scheduled for Caylee. They are medical records so we will probably never know for sure. jmo

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I couldnt believe it wasnt mentioned in trial! I did think maybe they were saving it for abuse part of trial, which never came about. The Dr's. gave a detailed account in the autopsy. I think the whole autopsy was about 36 pages
with this near the very end...:seeya:
 

oceanblueeyes

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I don't understand the importance of whether the duct tape, hair, plant growth or "muck" held the mandible in place. It may have been any single one or a combination of many. The importance of the duct tape is that it shouldn't have been there in the first place. And the first logical INFERENCE is that the tape was there first in order for the other forces to have had enough time to also develop/hold it in place.

INFERENCE begs reasoning. Reasoning is not a bad thing. What reasoning could satisfy a crimeless purpose for the duct tape's presence?

The Pinellas 12 did a stellar job of ignoring every inference from the state and swallowing all of those from the defense. IMO they ignored reason and common sense. But the duct tape? OMGosh, you'd have to turn yourself into a pretzel to make the presence of the duct tape an innocent INFERENCE/finding.

Ugh. I was so hoping I was over trying to advocate for Caylee because it's such an intense thing and I can't even understand why there still seems to be a need to do so. :sigh:

I couldnt agree with you more.

I really dont understand why anyone would even try to rationalize away the duct tape found at the disposal scene. There is nothing that can rationalize that finding away. Absolutely nothing, imo.

Of course it was attached to her hair and not her skull. Caylee had fully decomposed so there was no flesh or tissue left for the duct tape to adhere to but imo when she was first placed there is was across her mouth and possibly her nasal cavity. All I know is Vinnie Polatan saw these crime scene photos and autopsy photos for himself and that was the day he said he understood why the state was asking for the death penalty. It had to be painfully obvious that the duct tape had been applied to Caylee's face before she was placed there.

No child for any reason has duct tape applied to their head unless it is for sinister reasons. Anything else doesnt make a bit of common sense.

Over the years of reading about true crime I have never seen a skull with the mandible fixed and in place unless the victims mouth was bound before death. The mandible is one of the first parts to detach from the skeleton if it has nothing to hold it in place and Caylee's mandible wasn't just there but it was still aligned and in the normal position.

Dr. G knows that all too well. I am sure she has never seen a mandible fixed and in place either unless the victim had been bound before death.

Both things show homicide.

The duct tape found at the scene that match the duct tape of the Anthonys.
The mandible still fixed and in place when found skeletonized.

I am looking forward to her show. I have never watched her show before but I do love her commonsense approach. It is something everyone can easily understand and identify with.

IMO
 

RR0004

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I couldnt agree with you more.

I really dont understand why anyone would even try to rationalize away the duct tape found at the disposal scene. There is nothing that can rationalize that finding away. Absolutely nothing, imo.

Of course it was attached to her hair and not her skull. Caylee had fully decomposed so there was no flesh or tissue left for the duct tape to adhere to but imo when she was first placed there is was across her mouth and possibly her nasal cavity. All I know is Vinnie Polatan saw these crime scene photos and autopsy photos for himself and that was the day he said he understood why the state was asking for the death penalty. It had to be painfully obvious that the duct tape had been applied to Caylee's face before she was placed there.

No child for any reason has duct tape applied to their head unless it is for sinister reasons. Anything else doesnt make a bit of common sense.

Over the years of reading about true crime I have never seen a skull with the mandible fixed and in place unless the victims mouth was bound before death. The mandible is one of the first parts to detach from the skeleton if it has nothing to hold it in place and Caylee's mandible wasn't just there but it was still aligned and in the normal position.

Dr. G knows that all too well. I am sure she has never seen a mandible fixed and in place either unless the victim had been bound before death.

Both things show homicide.

The duct tape found at the scene that match the duct tape of the Anthonys.
The mandible still fixed and in place when found skeletonized.

I am looking forward to her show. I have never watched her show before but I do love her commonsense approach. It is something everyone can easily understand and identify with.

IMO
I have already set my DVR. :)
 

Macushla

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Dr. Garavaglia's special on Caylee will be on The Learning channel tonight 1/1/12 at 8 pm. It may be shown at other times, but tonight is when it will be aired for the first time.

ETA: Sorry, should have been area specific. Here in the Orlando area it will be on at 8 pm. Wasn't thinking about other time zones! DOH
 

chakti

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Okay, took some time to figure out but, if you are in Jefferson City, Mo. area and you have Medicom it will be on ch. 50 at 7 P.M. tonight.

I have missed alot of shows because of differant times and stations these days. Not gonna miss this !!!!!!!!!
 

Ricki

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I guess we will be meeting here at 8pm tonight. Should be enlightening. Looking forward to it..
 
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