Duct Tape and Premeditation #500

[Jolynna]

The Florida Supreme Court concluded it is not reasonable or logical to put duct tape over another human mouth except to make the other human stop screaming or breathing. http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2004/071204/5D03-1906.op.pdf page 13

My theory has always been that KC sat on Caylee with her knees over Caylee's arms so her hands would be free to tape. According to the entomologist report Caylee went into the trunk either while still alive or shortly after she died. So, I've had to revise my original theory to include Caylee possibly going into the trunk while she was passed out (from lack of air).

I don't see KC as the doting mother Andrea L. described today during the hearing. Andrea L. said not a friend could say they ever saw a bruise. Pictures show Caylee with bruises under different eyes in different boyfriend's beds.

http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=Cayleewithbruiseunderrighteye.jpg&newest=1

http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/...ndCayleewithbruiseunderlefteyeat.jpg&newest=1

I absolutely believe JA was spot-on and that KC restrained (physically or chemically) Caylee so she could tape over Caylee's face and prevent her from breathing.

 

[debbie0604]

I thought that Jeff Ashton did an outstanding job depicting the "last moments." What struck me the most was that he pointed out the simple fact that an almost 3 yr. old could rip the tape off herself....unless physically/chemically restrained. Shocker, yes?

After the initial shock of hearing this...I got to wondering why we, here at WS...had not thought of this yet....or has it been discussed? It made me think of the many different angles/questions about this case we have not yet considered in this case...

(the last video of Caylee with her greatgrandfather....she seems so tired)

I think the way he outlined the scenario was very compelling. I think he nailed it. And he did a fabulous job of doing so. I think in the forthcoming trial we are going to hear more compelling testimony of what took place and possibly how it possibly transpired.

Really made me think hard today.....I can't help but wonder if she tried to give her chloroform and then physically restrained her and put the tape on and then placing the heart sticker on to try to make her be quiet.

 

[debbie0604]

My thinking on JA's statement regarding Caylee being able to remove the tape is that he meant that she could move it enough to breathe. She probably could not have gotten that tape completely off of her face or out of her hair, but I think she could have moved or pulled it off of her nose and mouth enough to breathe. When someone's face is obstructed and wants to breathe, one will frantically pull and claw at the object to remove it from their face instinctively in order to breathe unless they are "restrained" in some way. JMO

 

[BeanE]

The Florida Supreme Court concluded it is not reasonable or logical to put duct tape over another human mouth except to make the other human stop screaming or breathing. http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2004/071204/5D03-1906.op.pdf page 13 And I think that is why KC taped over Caylee's mouth.


My theory has always been that KC sat on Caylee with her knees over Caylee's arms so her hands would be free to tape. According to the entomologist report Caylee went into the trunk either while still alive or shortly after she died, so I've had to revise that theory to include Caylee possibly going into the trunk while she was passed out (from lack of air).

I don't see KC as the doting mother Andrea L. described today during the hearing. Andrea L. said not a friend could say they ever saw a bruise. There are pictures of Caylee with bruises under different eyes in different boyfriend's apartments. Just the fact that KC was sticking her little girl in the same "bed" as her man of the moment, imo, shows KC as not concerned over her baby's safety.
http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=Cayleewithbruiseunderrighteye.jpg&newest=1

http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/...ndCayleewithbruiseunderlefteyeat.jpg&newest=1

BBM

I agree that KC was not the doting mother Andrea claimed she was.
- We have numerous statements from KC's brother that KC's mother felt KC was an "unfit mother".
- We have statements about Cindy wanting to take custody of Caylee.
- We have statements about Caylee being more attached to her grandmother than to her mother, some of which are statements from KC herself.
- We have statements about KC having Caylee sleep in the bed with one of her sexual partners and herself.
- We have statements about KC taking Caylee to parties where there was drinking.
- We have a picture of Caylee wearing marijuana leaf motifs.

No evidence of extreme abuse, but things were certainly not all rosy between KC and Caylee.

ETA: Sorry. Just realized this post is probably O/T.

MOO

 

[Searchfortruth]

I think the state already has an idea of the circumstances in which this duct tape was applied. Had they revealed that specifically today, they would have given away too much of their case. Even if they don't know the specifics, the simple fact that there was duct tape covering the mouth and nose of a two year old child, equals premeditated murder in my book. Most jurors, with common sense will come to the conclusion that a person who puts duct tape over a childs face, has no plans to take it off. They will also understand that there is no rational reason to place it on a childs face after death.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I have always thought she did this to her in the trunk...not in a carseat... always thought she died in the trunk...while she was renting a video with Tony...... came back...saw she was (finally) dead...and then had to come up with a new scenario.... (poor Tony...had no idea what he was dealing with).

I have always thought the death took place after she left the home on the 16th too. Her phone calls to her mom at work in the afternoon, I thought were an attempt to get her to babysit Caylee. I don't guess that worked out for Casey and I think she was determined to go to Tony's. Somewhere before geting to Tony's, I think she gave her something to sleep, drove around waiting for the med to take effect and then put her in the trunk. I think she duct taped her then so that noone would hear her while Casey was out with Tony. She knew what leaving Caylee alone in a hot trunk, with duct tape over her mouth and nose, would do. But, that's just my theory and opinion.

ITA, Tony didn't have any idea what he was dealing with.

 

[Leila]

Because he was just surmising that, given that she would be able to rip the tape off herself...and she didn't....that she had to be restrained one way or another....physically or chemically.... my guess...Xanax....at least....

I remember that in one document dump there was a list of items taken from the medicine cabinets in the Anthony home. I wonder if the SA is thinking along the lines that Caylee would have been given some sort of sedative/tranqualizer prior to the duct tape being applied.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Perhaps OT but I see value...
Does anyone else feel that during Mr. Ashtons discussion regarding the duct tape over Caylee's mouth, and his suggestion that chemical or physical restraint would have been likely, that Kc's "simultaneous" wrist grabbing is perhaps rather telling? She shook her head vehemently while listening to the discussion of chemical restraint, and then grabbed her wrists in a curious fashion. I didn't see any other times where her body language was as overt as it was during Mr. Ashton's argument. I wonder if it is possible that Caylee's wrists were restrained by that additional piece of tape found near the body and if KC's body language indictates as much. OBVIOUSLY, her actions could not be entered as evidence, but I wonder if that possibility may be explored further and if it may give create a new focus on the additional duct tape.

 

[Leila]

I have always thought she did this to her in the trunk...not in a carseat... always thought she died in the trunk...while she was renting a video with Tony...... came back...saw she was (finally) dead...and then had to come up with a new scenario.... (poor Tony...had no idea what he was dealing with).

I would imagine TL is haunted by asking himself, "What if?" That's quite a burden for a young man to carry.

 

[TakeNote]

the point i heard today....was it was premeditated murder

either......

Caylee was physically restrained while she suffocated from both her air ways being block

or Caylee was sedated before she suffocated from both her air ways being block

Caylee did not put that tape on her self

Caylee was old enough and strong enough to be able to remove enough of the duct tape off of her mouth or nose to be able to breath....

one or the other or even both of above had to have prevented Caylee from tugging, pulling even a tiny bit of tape off her mouth to breath....

you dont put three peices of tape over the face, including the nose to quite someone!

 

[Bittiness39]

I know this topic is apparently and potentially destructive (and by that I simply mean debate and name callery) but still...to me, if the A's have a fairly uncommon roll of duct tape...and that duct tape winds up on the remains of Caylee..would it not stand to reason that the duct tape came from the A home? And while I am lingering on the edge of obvious cliff could it not also stand to reason that KC Anthony applied said duct tape on her child's mouth either to kill her or to keep her quiet? The mystery to me is whether or not the act of applying the duct tape was an intentional attempt to murder or to silence Caylee so KC could boink the boyfriend of the month...that is where it gets dicey. And judging from the reaction of the defendent in court it is still very open territory...regardless of whether or nor KC's tears were for herself...which, to me, appeared like they totally were.

 

[Searchfortruth]

the point i heard today....was it was premeditated murder

either......

Caylee was physically restrained while she suffocated from both her air ways being block

or Caylee was sedated before she suffocated from both her air ways being block

Caylee did not put that tape on her self

Caylee was old enough and strong enough to be able to remove enough of the duct tape off of her mouth or nose to be able to breath....

one or the other or even both of above had to have prevented Caylee from tugging, pulling even a tiny bit of tape off her mouth to breath....

you dont put three peices of tape over the face, including the nose to quite someone!

Either way, Casey did put duct tape over the mouth and nose, and Caylee died.

There is no way Casey should be rewarded because she hid the remains long enough to make rendering a cause of death impossible, because of skeletonization. I am sure the state will argue this point to the jury. If Caylee had been found sooner, a cause of death would have been easier to determine.

 

[Leila]

IMO It will be so hard to say if she was sedated or did she fight for her lil life...she was so badly decomposed that there is no way of seeing if she had tried to get the tape of, if she pulled on it at all...that poor child my god rest her soul and I hope she is in a wonderful place full of love, kindness and lots of fun

ps had antoher thought so I needed to add this...most of us here are moms, dads, aunts, uncles etc. Let me ask you this question...have you ever been at the hospital with a child- even at age 2 they rip out their IV's , they fight do the death for stitches, they wont sit still for the painless test of an xray...no child would not fight for tape being applied to their mouth and noses if they had been awake....IMO

You bring up a very good point!

 

[TakeNote]

my opinions are not meant to attack any ones else's ideas .....

my opinions are just that.... opinions from myself....

I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts and appreciate them

:hug:

 

[Searchfortruth]

Perhaps OT but I see value...
Does anyone else feel that during Mr. Ashtons discussion regarding the duct tape over Caylee's mouth, and his suggestion that chemical or physical restraint would have been likely, that Kc's "simultaneous" wrist grabbing is perhaps rather telling? She shook her head vehemently while listening to the discussion of chemical restraint, and then grabbed her wrists in a curious fashion. I didn't see any other times where her body language was as overt as it was during Mr. Ashton's argument. I wonder if it is possible that Caylee's wrists were restrained by that additional piece of tape found near the body and if KC's body language indictates as much. OBVIOUSLY, her actions could not be entered as evidence, but I wonder if that possibility may be explored further and if it may give create a new focus on the additional duct tape.

BBM.

I thought the wrist grabbing was weird and don't remember seeing it before in her. I think a body language expert would be helpful here.

Now the way she drew her fists up was exactly the same thing she did in the jail video, when she was mad at her parents. It was definitely anger, IMO, directed at the prosecutors statements (at least in the beginning).

 

[passionflower]

IIRC velvetta wrappers were in the trunk? garbage?
Zanny was for zanex?
chloroform?
IMO, I believe that Caylee suffered for months.
In pix you can see her hair thinning.
At Easter she has very thick pigtails, by the June pix with Cindy's father
her hair is so thin.
I feel the duct tape was applied in a RAGE!
We have seen the RAGE of KC.
KC was so mad that her mother wouldn't babysit.
Remember the huge father's day fight???
Caylee was wrapped up with duct tape from dad's shed that night, IMO.
Right in the house, dogs hit by bedroom window IIRC.
Was she thrown out the window?
KC used a shovel...........backed car up to garage the next day?
To keep her quiet, IIRC KC was pacing in front of a hotel/motel that night,
why?
Waiting for baby Caylee to die???
I do believe that Caylee had been given some drugs also.
KC is evil, heartless and hated Caylee, IMOO

 

[BeanE]

Perhaps OT but I see value...
Does anyone else feel that during Mr. Ashtons discussion regarding the duct tape over Caylee's mouth, and his suggestion that chemical or physical restraint would have been likely, that Kc's "simultaneous" wrist grabbing is perhaps rather telling? She shook her head vehemently while listening to the discussion of chemical restraint, and then grabbed her wrists in a curious fashion. I didn't see any other times where her body language was as overt as it was during Mr. Ashton's argument. I wonder if it is possible that Caylee's wrists were restrained by that additional piece of tape found near the body and if KC's body language indictates as much. OBVIOUSLY, her actions could not be entered as evidence, but I wonder if that possibility may be explored further and if it may give create a new focus on the additional duct tape.

Yes! I posted earlier today about her grabbing her wrist for no apparent reason when Ashton talked about physical or chemical restraint, and then shaking her head no when he talked about chemical restraint.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I find it very interesting. I can't help but think that KC was subconsciously unable to resist responding to Ashton's story of what happened to Caylee with what seemed to be clues to what actually happened.

MOO

 

[txsvicki]

I'd think that if Caylee did not have her hands bound or was awake and alive that the tape would have scratch marks around the mouth and nose areas. I think they'll say that she was already dead or dying and the whole thing was going to be set up to look like a kidnapping.

 

[mydailyopinions]

Yes! I posted earlier today about her grabbing her wrist for no apparent reason when Ashton talked about physical or chemical restraint, and then shaking her head no when he talked about chemical restraint.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I find it very interesting. I can't help but think that KC was subconsciously unable to resist responding to Ashton's story of what happened to Caylee with what seemed to be clues to what actually happened.

MOO

I honestly thought she was going to pound her fist on the table.....

 

[Curious Me]

Casey's wrist grabbing is so telling, and I'd love to hear an expert define what it means. She was getting scarey mad over being accused of putting that duct tape on "that way". Chemically restrained! How dare they get it so wrong!