Duct Tape and Premeditation #500

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by Pattymarie, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. Icky Etardo

    Icky Etardo Joo got some 'splainin' to do

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    Do you mean during Narkiwiecz' testimony on
    Friday? Or Bloise's testimony? Or did you really mean Saturday? Can you narrow it down a bit? Because I don't see any obvious "Aha!" moments. Maybe I missed a few minutes of the testimony.
     


  2. AZlawyer

    AZlawyer Verified Attorney

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    The autopsy report did say that the hair on the skull had the decomp bands. Which is no surprise, of course.

    ETA: Actually I believe it was the FBI report.
     
  3. MissJames

    MissJames a yellowflutterby changed my life : )

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    Another poster quoted a friend as saying (paraphrasing) "You hear about murders covered up to look like accidents ,but when have you ever heard of an accident covered up to look like a murder? "
    JMO ,but putting duct tape on a dead body (especially after an accident) just never made sense to me. The Florida Supreme Court doesn't think so ,either ,per the Huck case.
    Forever grateful to Jolynna for finding it.
     
  4. Friday

    Friday Verified Author

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    FWIW (which is less than :twocents:) I've always been hung up on the theory that a combination of extremely "frushtrating" situations occurred simultaneously sometime between June 15 - 17, which caused Casey's volatile narcissistic temper to explode into murderous rage. Here they are as told from Casey's view:

    #1: She'd met Tony and wanted to live with him...to be carefree and single, but two insurmountable obstacles were blocking her way: Cindy and Caylee.

    #2: Cindy was not merely an obstacle to Casey's desire to be with Tony; Cindy was an unloving, undefeatable opponent with an ugly temper who intended to force Casey to stay chained to her forever -- while Cindy doted on Caylee, constantly lavishing her with all the unconditional motherly love and attention that should have belonged to Casey, but never had. On top of that, Cindy had been usurping Casey's rights as a mother and stealing so much of Caylee's love that Caylee often preferred to be with Cindy instead of Casey. Cindy had been stealing everything that mattered from Casey for 2 1/2 years--and yet, Cindy had flown into a crazed rage last night (or the night before last?) and tried to strangle Casey for stealing a few lousy dollars!

    #3: Little Caylee was the reason Casey was being forced to sacrifice her own right to happiness, but Caylee certainly wasn't showing any gratitute for Casey's great sacrifices. On the contrary, Caylee had grown from a sweet, complaisant, smiling, drowsy baby into a demanding, spoiled, tantrum-throwing brat who wouldn't even go to sleep at night without an argument. The ungrateful, disloyal snot-head not only preferred Cindy to Casey, she'd started threatening to tell on Casey if Casey tried to discipline her, or put her to sleep in the car...trunk?

    In my scenario, all of the above had combined and festered inside of Casey into an ugly mass by June 17 (or whatever day the pool ladder was left up). She spent the night of the 16th with Tony, and I assume she'd drugged Caylee and left her wherever she usually left her--probably in the car with her mouth and hands duct taped so that if she woke up, she couldn't cause a commotion that passersby would hear.

    On the day of the 17th, with Caylee with her, Casey went home to get more clothes, filch groceries, and steal money, whatever. I think that Caylee announced she wanted to stay there, go swimming, and spend the night with grandma, and that when Casey told her no...or to get in the car...or to get her toys together, Caylee then had an (understandable) screaming fit, calling for her Grandma, running away from KC or throwing herself on the ground. And all that sent KC completely over the edge.

    I think Casey grabbed the duct tape and slapped a piece over Caylee's mouth to shut her up, and that when Caylee struggled and kicked at her (and clawed at her?) Casey taped her ankles, and her wrists, and added more and more tape around her face to cover it up.

    And then I think Casey picked Caylee up, carried her swiftly to the pool, and as she dumped her over the side, she might have said something like, "You said you wanted to go swimming--"

    Or would she have leaned over the side and called, "How's the water, Caylee?"

    I think Casey then went in the house and did whatever she needed to do. Later, she put the ladder on the pool and fished a dead Caylee out of it and added a heart sticker over the tape. She had more important things on her mind at that point than taking the pool ladder down or remembering to close the gate

    The above scenario assumes Casey could have lifted Caylee high enough to dump her into the pool without needing to climb the ladder. If, however, she would have needed to take the time to put the ladder up before she could have dumped Caylee into the pool, then I think it would make more sense that the above events happened in reverse order---i.e, Caylee and Casey went swimming and when they got out of the pool, that's when Casey told Caylee she couldn't stay home that night with grandma. Caylee naturally put up a huge fight as described earlier....and the duct tape came out, causing Caylee's death. She was not thrown into the pool in this scenario

    if I'm wrong about the date the pool ladder was supposedly left up and the gate was left open, or there's some other reason events couldn't possibly have enfolded as I described above, I apologize for wasting everyone's time. I should know better than to try to post intelligently at 2:00 AM.
     
  5. mom2pt

    mom2pt New Member

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    I have a question about the duct tape. When they first found Caylee's remains, news media all reported there was duct tape over the mouth. And so that is what I always believed. But after listening to a lot of testimony, I am confused as to where the duct tape was located in relation to Caylee's skull. Was is attached to both sides of the hair? Was is it wrapped all the way around? I am now under the impression that it was just attached to one said of the hair mass, and if that is the case, then I have my doubts as to whether or not it was ever placed over the mouth. After learning that RK admitted to moving the skull, and then learning that the Anthony's buried their pets by wrapping them in plastic bags and taping the bag shut. I wonder if ICA used the duct tape to wrap around the bag instead of around Caylee's face. I just wish I had an idea as to how the skull and duct tape were found in relation to each other. I haven't changed my mind as to ICA's guilt, but I am somewhat doubtful that the tape was the murder weapon.
     
  6. Gracenote

    Gracenote We know that all things work together for good for

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    I had similar thoughts.
     
  7. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85495&highlight=duct
     
  8. JBounds

    JBounds I feel lucky

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    I don't believe the duct tape was the murder weapon. That is the only thing I disagree with the state about because it is obvious she used it to make it appear as a kidnapping at the beginning with the whole zanny story. But it's not whether I believe it or not but rather does the jury believe it.
     
  9. BuffaloChuck

    BuffaloChuck New Member

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    What's always made me wonder - no one who's been chloroformed will enjoy that experience a second time. No matter how big or small. The burning is excrutiating, and nasal, sinus and throat tissues can erupt into a bloody, gory mess without the greatest amount of care.

    Caylee HAD to suffer a great amount of physical restraint to have that performed on her again.

    So, was The First Time also her last? Could be. Someone with no experience ("Are you a chemist?!!") could easily screw this up.

    And if Casey used Carbon Tetrachloride, the blood flow would have been massive and immediate, and with an agony perhaps second only to a flamethrower.

    The duct tape could have held blood-stemming bandaging on her face, OR Casey may have thought she could dope that bandage-rag and keep Caylee under with a "continuous aroma" longer. I wouldn't be surprised if she doped her into unconsciousness, and then thought she could use a chloroformed rag taped over her mouth and nose to keep her unconscious. "Let's try that, this time... she woke up too early last time."
     
  10. TxLady2

    TxLady2 Well-Known Member

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    I have always believed that the cause of death was overdose, possibly the chloroform. I never believed she purposely meant to kill her, but cooked up the kidnapping story just to cover up the accident, because she knew Cindy would come unglued and possibly kill HER.
    In the Haleigh Cummings case, there are some who believe that her family cooked up a kidnapping story to cover up Ron's involvement in her death. So I wonder why that could not be believed in this case. If it worked for one family, it could work for another. I would have to do some digging but I bet we could find a few cases where this has been done.
    If Casey had used her brains and thought it through, she might have gotten away with this. Hauling Caylee's body around in the trunk for days and then abandoning the car when it ran out of gas was STUPID. Not that I want her to get away with it, but you see the point.
     
  11. BuffaloChuck

    BuffaloChuck New Member

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    Noel Behn's LINDBERGH THE CRIME asserts that Charles Lindbergh & Family concocted the Baby Kidnapping to save his unhinged sister-in-law after Junior's fall/drop from that house's 2nd story. And all the subsequent pay-offs, arrests and eventual execution were accepted by Lindbergh as "collateral cost" for this cover-up.

    Bruno, baby, if only you'd been an avowed Nazi, maybe Chaz woulda saved ya! But, nope, the Lindberghs fled to England the day after the NJ Guv announced he was reviewing Hauptmann's trial. Just coincidence? Behn writes a large book to assert "no".
     
  12. Leah0107

    Leah0107 New Member

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    I have asked the same questions - hy so much duct tape? That has bothered me like nothing else. This is A LOT of duct tape on a little face. 3 pieces connected with the skull.
    from skull
    q62 - 9.5x2
    q63 - 7.5x2intertwined w q64
    q64- 9.5x2
    found separate from skull
    q104-8.5x2 only one no dead hair

    I, like you, have gone over and over and over this in my mind and I can't think of any logical reason they would be there other than to cause suffocation.
    keep silent theory - why so much and stuck in hair (how do you remove that later?)
    kidnapp theory - why so much?
    manipulated by the elements - how'd they end up stuck in her hair?
    stuck to bag and hair - wouldn't there be evidence of bag on tape or vice versa?
    pet wrap theory-seems there'd be some connection with bag?
    keep in body fluids - i personally just don't buy this

    I want to believe it an accident. It's easier to wrap my mind around that a mother intentionally killing her child. Besides all of the behavior and other stuff too numerous too mention at this time that doesn't add up, this is one piece of evidence that keeps haunting me like nothing else and has had me entertaining 1st degree premed or felony murder.
     
  13. Leah0107

    Leah0107 New Member

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    If I believe the chloroform/duct tape were the murder weapons then 1 of 2 scenarios had to have played out.

    1) Wanted to spend the night with TL and didn't have a babysitter. Make her bed in the trunk with her blanket - Chloroform to sleep, duct tape to silence. Child dies in process. Felony Murder
    However, there was an overkill of duct tape placed for it to be silencing only. Altogether 26 inches of tape were connected with the skull. And if you were planning to remove it later, why entwined in all her hair (it would be too hard to remove later) Unless you were in a frantic rage. (premeditation?)

    2) Planned to smother her with duct tape, used chloroform to subdue her, which would constitute premeditation. I just don't buy this and who plans to kill someone with Chloroform. I think I may have eliminated this one.
     
  14. sleutherer

    sleutherer New Member

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    People who kill people they know/love tend to cover faces or cover the body.
     
  15. Beatrice

    Beatrice New Member

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    Chloroform to make Caylee sleep.
    Caylee dies.
    Duct tape used to keep fluids out of trunk.
    Duct tape to make it kook like a kidnapping.
     
  16. JBounds

    JBounds I feel lucky

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    I agree.
     
  17. Hali

    Hali New Member

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    I just saw the video of the duct tape superimposed over Caylee's lower face region. What it looked like to me was the indentations of being wrapped around the top of a bag. I'm wondering if when Kronk tampered with the bag/skull, if the tape was around the top of the bag(s), the weight of it being lifted up by Kronk caused the tape to be pulled down by gravity, and settle around/near Caylee's face/mouth? Maybe the defense will create their own power point presentation to explain this?
     
  18. wallflower67

    wallflower67 Member

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    I don't get how the duct tape could be matted in the hair and still hold the mandible in place it it wasn't placed on her face. The fact that it was in this exact position even after Krong stuck his meter reader stick in the eye socket makes me think even stronger that it was across her mouth. I hope the SA makes this point.
     
  19. Leah0107

    Leah0107 New Member

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    Respectfully snipped...
    Wow that case was VERY VERY interesting to read. It confirms legally everything I have heard and believed throughout this trial and of course the many opinions of others (which I respect). Additionally, I have no legal knowledge, but from what I read it seems like if ICA is convicted, she will have a VERY difficult if impossible appeal based on the theory of defense in this trial.

    Thanks for posting this!
     
  20. DIXIECAT

    DIXIECAT New Member

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    BBM
    This is the first post of many that I've read that makes me physically sick. It takes a lot to do that, since I was a trauma surgery RN for seven years. Dear Lord in Heaven, I hope and pray that your scenario did not play out.
     

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