Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
Join the latest discussion

Dumb-bell weights found in JB's room!

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Ames, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Ames

    Ames New Member

    Messages:
    5,838
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have posed this before...about two years ago, but it needs to be repeated.

    MIKE KANE: Did you know anything about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room? Did she work out or anything like that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. How big were they? Were they -- Burke might have had some, Patsy had some, she was recovering from cancer, she used to ride her bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I am not sure they were there when she was works out, but those were the dumbbells that we had around

    _________________________-


    Could JB have possibly been shoved, or fell onto one of these weights?
     
  2. Bobbarita

    Bobbarita New Member

    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have smaller size free hand weights varying from 2lbs. to 10 lbs. with a soft plastic type coating. IMO she could've easily been bashed in the head with a similar model. Sounds like they were of a smaller type as Patsy was working with them. Typical Ramsey response---"don't think so", "might have", "not sure", etc. He's seen Patsy working with them, he knows they were in the TV room, but he doesn't know how big they were! Hope Patsy's sister didn't remove them from the house...
     
  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,215
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ames,
    Yes seems like a possibility. John states they were usually located in the TV room not JonBenet's.

    .
     
  4. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I"d find this far more likely than the Maglight. The Maglight is heavy, with 3 D batteries and its length, which I think has always put it at the top of the list of "weapons" since it was found in the kitchen, the Ramseys always tried to distance themselves from it, and Thomas brought it up in his book. But somehow I've always had trouble imagining it being the weapon because that weight is distributed over a longer object and the end with the "light" ring which is more consistent with the comminuted fracture at the skull impact site is not where the weight is concentrated--the batteries are loaded and rest at the much skinnier "handle" end...or something. This is why I've leaned more towards a golf club or ball bat. Though I'm just guessing, as we really don't know, do we?

    So a dumbbell seems like a good possibility to me. Its weight is concentrated and its edges curved, so that might explain why there was no broken skin at the scalp.

    One more thing that always irritates me: we have seen the crime scene photos that Team Ramsey leader Lou Smit wanted us to see, and no more. That's why I call his Powerpoint Tour a propaganda blitz: when info is controlled by a biased source with a clear agenda, the message can't be trusted. That's why we have a free press in this country--or once did, anyway. The BDA certainly isn't allowing ANY OTHER PRIVATE CITIZEN to have photo/slide copies of the evidence, like Smit originally created as an employee of the DA and took with him when he quit, then was GIVEN CONTROL OF AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN. Boy, if I were a rich person, I'd be all over Boulder in court making sure that HUGE injustice didn't stand. But I digress....

    We haven't seen all of the crime scene photos by any means, not even in JonBenet's room. I'd never argue we should have seen them all, or any of them, really, but Smit is the one who released what he chose for us to see and so we have. But I believe there are plenty we haven't seen, and maybe dumbbells are in a picture, and that's what Kane was asking about?

    Very interesting, Ames. Good catch.
     
  5. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Plastic coated like the flashlight? I wonder if anyone compared them to the wound on her skull.
    I don't think a fall into the weights would have enough force to cause the injury. What about dropping them from a height? I have seen photos but need to ask as I can't tell. Were the upstairs open to the bottom floors. Was there a railing or something that prevented people from falling off the upper floor but wouldn't prevent something from being dropped or thrown from them.
    Even so that would most likely be considered an accident and I see no reason to stage.
    I know a lot of the posters feel the staging was needed to cover up prior sexual assault but all her injuries except the ones she sustained that night are easily explainable due to her long history of infections and such. Still just because evidence might be construed as evidence of prior sexual assault they could always lie, something posters point to Patsy doing a lot of.
    What.... our daughter had been abused..... We were very close and she never TOLD ME ANYTHING. Oh our poor baby. I wonder if that why he killed her to keep her silent so she couldn't tell us........ You get the point.

    The same reasons people point to the evidence they needed to stage could just as easily be a reason "an intruder did it". Evidence of prior sexual abuse does not mean it was the R's who did it, they could have just as easily pointed to that as reasons or motive for an IDI.

    If engaged in a giant cover up why didn't they just bathe her well, removing all trace evidence. Patsy could have said she woke up complaining of her private area burning and itching so she ran a bath and bathed her. Of course this bath would have had to occur before her death so Patsy could account for the time. The fact that Burke is unaware of it or even John is because they never woke during the bath, or heard JBR crying. Evidence she gave her a bath would be present ( wet drains, towels moist, etc.) would support Patsy's claim.
    JBR was wiped down and only her private areas. I wonder if Patsy wiped her down before going to the party? Another poster has queried as to someone else "helping" her in the bathroom at the party. Could this person have wiped her down. In other words what makes the coroner or police think the wiping occurred at the time of assault.

    If they know it occurred at the time of assault then it is obvious they ( who ever killed her) tried to obscure or get rid of evidence that they believe might tie them to the crime. It could be anyone of the who dun its here. JDI, BDI, PDI, or IDI.

    If they can't prove the wiping down was done at the time of the crime then they will face great difficulty proving it was unusual behavior for the R's to do. Her medical issues would require more than baths to keep her clean in that area. The R's would be successful in proving why JBR needed wiping done by an adult. She is not successful in handling her hygiene herself.
     
  6. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes, a dumbbell could have been dropped on JB's head through the railing upstairs. Though now that I'm thinking about a "fall onto a dumbbell" on the floor, I suppose if someone fell with JonBenet and landed on top of her at the same time, like kids wrestling, playing, etc., that might have put enough weight/force into the fall to have caused that kind of head injury. I can only suppose, of course. It's an idea.

    As to Patsy coming up with an IDI train of thought to cover up the prior molestation, think about that: it would be quite unbelievable, which is why IDI resist the evidence of prior molestation, after all. LE would have to believe an intruder came in prior to that night and molested the child, who said not a word about it nor showed any signs of it that anyone noticed, including her mother. Then he returned Dec. 25, committing crimes in the home for hours while the Ramseys slept upstairs, leaving no evidence of himself behind other than a ransom note written on her pad with her pen, very familiar with family workings, yet no one the Ramseys knew. Since Patsy could not have known about the unsourced DNA, essentially invisible to the naked eye, she surely wouldn't have been able to predict it would end up being found, in this scenario, so an already fantastic intruder story including previous time alone with the child for molestation would be much more fantastic.

    That's even harder to expect anyone to believe, don't you think?

    LE does know that the "wiping down" was done that night because the medical examiner made note that the bloodstains on the panties did not match up to blood in her genital area--I think Thomas wrote of this in his book, but it might have been another. (This is also possibly when the medical examiner transferred DNA he might have had on contaminated gloves to the bloodspots in the Bloomies--matching the bloodstains in the crotch to her genital area would have involved close handling.)

    As to JB's "medical issues," Patsy was asked directly by Det. Haney if she ever used anything to treat JB around the genitals, and she said all she used was a salve--Desitin, I think. Is that what you mean?
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,215
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    63
    KoldKase,

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm
    Also:-
    Its an open and shut case!

    .
     
  8. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    My point is about an accident no staging would be needed to cover an accident. The question of her death being an accident wouldn't be an issue. No garrote or sexual assault would be needed. The evidence pointed to that she had been abused ( the erosion and reddened labia) could be explained as her UTI's, or no knowledge of abuse given.
    The coroner is going to be able to match up the stories.
    JR says Burke dropped his weight over the rail and it hit JBR on the head. The parents call 911 and tell them there has been an accident. A still living JBR is taken to hospital. Even if she died on the way the coroner is going to check the head wound against their story. It matches he concludes she died of it. During his exam he discovers the reddened labia and erosion. He suspects abuse, but asks about her medical history. He finds out about her frequent UTI's etc. Even if he starts a detective on an investigation of alleged abuse it doesn't mean the R's were responsible. Since the cause of death is clearly an accident the LE investigating this abuse may not think the two are related to each other. All the R's had to do is act surprised and say oh Lord Jesus no, yes she wet the bed, yes she had all these numerous issues. I took her to the doctor on several occasions for it. Are you saying my daughter was being abused, another round of oh no Lord Jesus no, feign ignorance of the symptoms and displace blame on the Dr as they are trained to know that kind of stuff. The need for staging is not there. It would only be coincidental that she died from an accident after prior abuse of an unknown origin. If Patsy managed to fool a Dr. that examined JBR into not even looking for it then who is to say she couldn't pull off 1 lie and 1 lie only. The fact she took JBR to the doctor is something most guilty of molesting their children parents wouldn't do. Munchhausen's is when someone makes their kid sick for the attention. Molestation and making your kid sick are not even remotely related. One derives pleasure from the act the other enjoys the attention the sickness brings.

    The only lie that needs to be told is one - any knowledge that JBR was being molested. The more elaborate a lie is the harder it is to cover up the truth. The more staging that is done at a crime scene the easier it is to detect. If the R's did it they are good, like experienced criminals would be. Even experienced criminals would mess this up -the staging that is. In almost all RDI theories a series of elaborate lies are told.

    Since the panties don't fit and were likely wadded up at her crotch area how could anyone get a pattern match unless it was folded exactly. Did additional testing to see if the stain came from which side of the panties etc. I can easily see why the stains don't match up.

    The ME did not put what Detective Arndt quotes in his report. He may have thought it at the time but didn't. Could it be he read her medical history after he did the autopsy and CHANGED HIS MIND about the abuse. If it was related to and part of what might have led to her death he is required to put it in the report.

    I will repeat again.

    He did not put it in the report.

    Quoting hearsay evidence is not allowed in a criminal court trial.

    How is the DA going to be able to prove this in court?

    It isn't that I'm not able to see your point and the possibility it may be 100% true, but the evidence we quote here isn't going to do a DA any good when he is in court. It is too flimsy and too easily explained.
     
  9. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Active Member

    Messages:
    30,907
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    BBM & red

    Websleuths is not a criminal court. Period. This case will never be seen in a court of law. Just get over it, I did.
     
  10. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Dr Meyer has notes on JonBenet's autopsy that we are not privy to. Nobody but Law Enforcement knows what the Coroner wrote.
     
  11. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey I haven't given up hope... yet. Hope is the only thing sustaining this conversation. No matter who did it we all hope they/ he/ she will be caught.
     
  12. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have no vested interest in who is found to be the killer other than for the case to be strong for the prosecution. If abuse did occur and we are not privy to that info then I hope it is better evidence than what we have here cause a good lawyer could blow holes in it bigger than the barn door.
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,215
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    63
    CathyR,
    If the case ever comes to court Coroner Meyer would take the stand and be questioned on his autopsy report.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm
    Since the document stating the alleged sexual abuse takes the form of an an affadavit e.g. a legal document and that Detective Arndt is a Law Enforcement Officer her evidence carries much more weight than John Doe's. Also Detective Arndt was present at the autopsy along with other witnesses who can be called to the stand to testify on the reliability of Detective Arndt's account.

    This means her evidence is not mere hearsay, it is an excerpt from a legal process e.g. an autopsy and as such carries legal weight.

    JonBenet was was sexually molested prior to her death thats what the phrase sexual contact. tells us. This unambiguous, sexual contact. does not result from urinary tract infections.

    Coroner Meyer need not have elaborated but his remark regarding digital penetration which goes beyond merely stating an injury consistent with the insertion of a foreign object it specifies a human finger, and not male genitalia.

    The two phrases unambiguously state that Coroner Meyer suspected JonBenet had been sexually molested prior to her death and not simply physically injured e.g. a staged injury.

    Autopsy photographs taken of JonBenet's vagina were compared to that of a normal healthy 6-year old girl, and a close majority of experts, here I am excluding the BPD, cited chronic molsetation as the cause of the observed difference.

    The latter conclusion may be wrong based on peer pressure and flavor of the month reporting. But given it offers a consistent explanation for motivation related to the staging, whereas accidental death does not. Then prior molestation is a sound conclusion based on evidence.


    .
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    And it was. I'm not being a wise-*** either. Experienced LE agents could and DID notice it. "Staging within staging" were their words.

    No, not good. Just better disposed than the DA.
     
  15. CathyR

    CathyR New Member

    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey as long as it isn't a direct insult I wouldn't consider anyone to be a wise a**. It is better to be a wise a ** than a dumb bu**.

    That was my whole point about the staging.... It couldn't have been an accident, even if someone from her own home was molesting her.
    The need for staging wouldn't be there as the most severe of her vaginal injuries had not been inflicted yet.

    I think I have figured out why we don't "get" each other.
    It is the order of events.
    I think she was head bashed first, molested second then strangled last.

    In the RDI because of molestation she is (more severely) molested first, head bashed second, and strangled last.

    Am I correct in assuming this is what the difference in opinion hinges on, the order of events?
     
  16. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Active Member

    Messages:
    30,907
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38

    You have the patience of a saint!
     
  17. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Fair enough, I suppose!

    I don't know, CathyR. A dead little girl with vaginal injuries in her home? I can see why someone might feel the need.

    Not exactly. I actually agree with your idea, but where I differ is that I distinguish between the molestation (which I think had been going on for a while) and the vaginal assault from that night. Other than that, I'm with you all the way. I can't speak for other RDIs, though.
     
  18. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Active Member

    Messages:
    30,907
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38

    No, *I* don't profess to know which came first.
     
  19. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

    Messages:
    8,022
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The position of the hole in her skull indicates that it was not the result of someone dropping a dumbbell from a railing on her head. If that had happened, the hole would be near the top of her skull, instead of the occipital area where it was. And she would not have gotten a huge fracture like that from falling ONTO a dumbbell. She'd have had to fall from the roof. And it is doubtful she'd land so that it hit that part of her skull. Aside from that, I simply cannot believe the parents would stage a crime to this extent for something that would have been a REAL accident. Even if she died- they'd call for help, not stage a phony kidnapping/murder.
    The coroner stated "blunt force trauma"and that is exactly what it was. She was bludgeoned with something that was SWUNG at her head.
     
  20. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes, blunt force trauma. My only questions are who hit her and why. I know why the crime was staged, I just don't know who they were covering for. Also, I believe she was molested several days before that night and may have been digitally molested that night as well. The assault with the paint brush handle was after the head bash and around the same time as the strangulation. I guess that may be where the confusion comes in. When I say molestation, I am talking about what the coroner called "digital penetration". What happened to her that night was sexual assault, pure and simple, even if it wasn't for anyone's gratification.
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice