Echols' occult motives

Discussion in 'West Memphis III' started by kyleb, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    I'm carrying a couple quotes over from the [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211742"]Common Ground[/ame] thread since this is a disputed issue. To start:

    No, even if Griffis had got up on the stand and shook his arms like a chicken while barking like a dog, that would've had no bearing on Echols' motives in committing the murders. That said, Echols was by far a better witness regarding his occult influenced motives than Griffs was, though of course Echols spoke in third person when referring to who committed the murders. Notably:

    Granted, the prosecution couldn't predict what Echols would say, and hence were left to find a witness on their own, and Griffis was apparently the best they could do. Furthermore, Exhibit 500 and Echols' letters to Gloria Shettles speak volumes regarding Echols occult motives, but of coarse neither of those were available to the prosecution for the trial, so the they were left to make due with what they could get.

    If some KKK type were on trial for murdering a black person, would you consider it religious discrimination to call witness to testify regarding religious beliefs such as supposed "curse of Cain"?

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain"]Curse and mark of Cain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    I contend that ideology is often a notable factor in motives, be such ideologies secular or otherwise. To consider some ideologies off-limits when addressing the issue of motive, simply because they are religious in nature, would be unequal treatment under the law.
     
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  3. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    This is an interesting side of the debate on, but I really don't think there actually was much of a motive in this case .. I think Damien at the time was interested in alternative religions, just as he seems to be now.

    IMO there was no planning here, whatsoever. The 3 older boys were drinking in the woods and by chance the three younger boys entered the area, and then the attack began, sort of like an act of bullying with Damien and Jason each outdoing the other which tragically leads to the murder of all three.

    I think there's a difference between someone in a 'hate gang' for instance going out and seeking a target for their misguided rage, or perhaps setting upon someone they were already felt a racist hatred for, and this crime .. however I understand the parallel of vulnerable victims.

    I'm sure there was a feeling of power and dominance gained simply by being able to commit the act, and by doing it in front of others. I also think that's part of the reason Damien talked about it afterwards, it added to his cache for want of a better word, or so he thought.

    He may have even tried to frame the act in his own mind to give it deeper meaning for his own benefit, but I really don't believe this crime had much sense to it at all, in the same way I don't believe school shootings make much sense. I view them similarly.

    Having said that, I can see Damien adding value and power to the act post crime, especially in discussions with Jason.
     
  4. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    So Damien ahead of time planning this as a satanic ritual, or any overt acts of satanism occurring during the crime, I think not. Damien reconstructing the crime afterwards to fit in with ideas of satanism in an attempt to give it some value - at least to himself, well that is a possibility ..
     
  5. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    I don't imagine Echols planned and carried out any sort of ritual, nor did the prosecution ever argue as much. Rather, I agree with what the prosecution actually did argue, that Echols' interest in gaining power though occult means inspired him to attack and murder the boys. I don't suppose to know if he set out to kill them from the start either, or perhaps he only set out to dominate them and maybe drink some of their blood but then things got out of hand. As for him later bragging about having committed the murders, I doubt he thought he gained any power through that, but rather thought himself so powerful as to imagine he was unstoppable. After all, in his post-arrest letters to Gloria Shettles he does go on at length about his belief that he will rise from the dead and become Satan's lieutenant in the battle of Armageddon and such. A person with such beliefs can't rightly expect to worry that bragging about the murders might get him caught, and as Echols explained a trial:

     
  6. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    So do you think DE actually believed that killing the boys gave him power? Or do you think as I do that killing made him FEEL powerful?
     
  7. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    I hold no beliefs in any sort of mumbo jumbo. Rather, I figure the only power Echols has he gained through duping Berlinger and Sinofsky into being convinced he was innocent before they ever even got a chance to see the evidence which was presented against the three at the trials, and of course from all the people who've been duped in turn from those meager beginnings. Echols on the other hand has long been drawn to the idea of gaining power through occult means, so of course I figure he believes the murders gave him power, in much the way an Individual Progress Note on him less than five months before the murders records in part:


    So yeah, given someone who "wants very much to be all powerful" and believes that being possessed by the spirit of a murdered woman gives him power and drinking blood makes him "feel like a God”, who also believes he communicates with demons and such through rituals: would such a person also believe that murdering young boys also gives him power? It would be absurd to suggest otherwise.
     
  8. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    Well since he still believes in the power of the occult, if we use Reiki as an example, or the ability of the life force to pass between humans however it is described, it comes down to a similar belief really. Hmmm ..
     
  9. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    This is an excellent thread. Please post more!
     
  10. claudicici

    claudicici Active Member

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    Yes,I agree what an excellent thread.It describes perfectly and accurately the mindset of people that prosecuted Damien in the first place.Keep on posting .
     
  11. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    I certainly do share prosecutors Davis and Fogleman's mindset to the extent that they respected the need to examine the evidence of motive along with that of means an opportunity to properly determine who committed the murders. That's said Claudicici, I hope you might take a moment to listen to a song which I doubt Davis or Fogleman would appreciate in the slightest, but which I'm quite fond of myself, and which goes along way in expressing my mindset towards those who are so fond of Echols:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTgKRCXybSM"]A Perfect Circle - Judith - YouTube[/ame]
     
  12. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    I do not believe the boys knew they were going to kill that day, it was a crime of opportunity IMO. So I just can't go as far as 'motive' here. He had engulfed himself in beliefs of the occult at the time, but if he had any real beliefs they were hardly formalised at that stage .. I really think he was adopting things at the time for the sake of an 'otherworldly image' one which he still cultivates.
     
  13. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    One doesn't take opportunity without motive, regardless of how little planning might be involved. Furthermore, very few people will take any opportunity to attack three young boys, let alone murder children. Those who do have very dark motives, occult and/or otherwise.
     
  14. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    I think Damien is basically a psychopath as he himself describes it, all the satanic props and actions were and still are superficial. His religious views are a real mixture, basically I would class the lot as 'occult' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult and really in the end about him being much more 'special' than other mere humans.
     
  15. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    Reiki: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki"]Reiki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Reiki (霊気?, /ˈreɪkiː/) is a spiritual practice[1] developed in 1922 by Japanese Buddhist Mikao Usui, which has since been adapted by various teachers of varying traditions. It uses a technique commonly called palm healing or hands on healing as a form of alternative medicine and is sometimes classified as oriental medicine by some professional medical bodies.[2] Through the use of this technique, practitioners believe that they are transferring universal energy (i.e., reiki) in the form of qi (Japanese: ki) through the palms, which they believe allows for self-healing and a state of equilibrium.[3]
     
  16. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    What are psychopaths but those with the darkest of motives, and what symbolism or ritual isn't superficial?

    Would you argue otherwise of those who insist they've been saved by L. Ron Hubbard, or Jesus for that matter?
     
  17. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    So do you think he actually believes that he has special powers and can influence world events by burning a few candles and saying a chant or two? If so he'll be thinking he magicked himself to a higher level through this crime .. he's kind of right at this stage, I guess ..
     
  18. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    Well I doubt it took anything special to dupe Berlinger and Sinofsky, and the rest basically just snowballed from there. Of course I figure Echols believes he bent space and time to bring all this together, but I chalk it up to dumb luck.
     
  19. Mrs G Norris

    Mrs G Norris #JeSuisUrsa

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    Considering Berlinger and Sinofsky likely engaged in a lot of selective editing to create their movies and are aware of more than we are I even wonder how convinced they actually are .. at the end of the day they found an audience, which translated into $$$ .. colour me cynical.
     
  20. reedus23

    reedus23 New Member

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    I will say, I also find this thread very enlightening. Kyle, trying to make sure I'm reading it correctly, are you saying you believe Damien committed the murders because he thought he would gain some sort of powers from killing the kids or from drinking their blood? You are not saying Damien killed the kids because he was trying to exert power/control over another life. Do I have that right?
     
  21. reedus23

    reedus23 New Member

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    What's strange is when I was reading Damien's answers to the "questions", through the answers he gave, I instantly got the visual of John Douglas answering the questions the same way, and that was before I knew John Douglas was even involved in this case. So needless to say, I saw nothing wrong with his answers to any of the questions. Frankly, I felt Damien was doing what many of us do here and was playing amateur profiler.
     

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