Damien Echols' occult motives

[time]

By worse I meant more ridiculous.

We'll have to agree to disagree on anything related to new age religion I'm a skeptic and proud of it, I'm also an Atheist for what it's worth.

Acupuncture, holistic medicine, etc. have been around for a long time. Using them or practicing such things does not mean it is or isn't a part of new age religion. I'm skeptical of many things also including standard medical practice. Satanism is also not related to being Wiccan....

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Acupuncture, holistic medicine, etc. have been around for a long time. Using them or practicing such things does not mean it is or isn't a part of new age religion. I'm skeptical of many things also including standard medical practice. Satanism is also not related to being Wiccan....

I know .. I'm just a skeptic in general .. by occult I meant this, from the Wikipedia article above:

Occultism is the study of occult practices, including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and neopaganism.[7] A broad definition is offered by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke:

OCCULTISM has its basis in a religious way of thinking, the roots of which stretch back into antiquity and which may be described as the Western esoteric tradition. Its principal ingredients have been identified as Gnosticism, the Hermetic treatises on alchemy and magic, Neo-Platonism, and the Kabbalah, all originating in the eastern Mediterranean area during the first few centuries AD.[8]

I'm actually rather curious how an interest in the occult, which I have no problem with would interact with a mental illness, or personality disorder. I'll have a look into it later and see if I can post some links, my personal belief is that the crime itself was not 'satanic' at all.

Damien does call his practice Hermetic Reiki, which is interesting. I think his principle interest is in the occult in general.

 

[time]

Then maybe stop reading it?

Although Judge Burnett allowed him to testify as an 'expert witness'' he is just some weirdo who tried to cash in on the whole 'satanic panic' wave. He had no academic qualifications in that field what so ever. Any person, with the mind set to con gullible people, can buy an off the peg PhD off the internet now - back then I guess he had to write a cheque and post it in the old fashioned way!

The fact that he was allowed to 'testify' reflects very badly on both the lead prosecutor Davies as well as Judge Burnett. Either theyb are both 'fools' or, even worse, thought the jury members were so ignorant that they would be blinded by this 'science'.<snip>

This reminds me of Tim Master's case ... convicted of a murder committed when he would have been 15 yo (although he was not charged until later). It was based almost exclusively on the testimony by J. Reid Meloy, a forensic psychologist. Fortunately, Tim was exonerated with DNA after being in prison 10 years.

 

[time]

I know .. I'm just a skeptic in general .. by occult I meant this, from the Wikipedia article above:

Occultism is the study of occult practices, including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and neopaganism.[7] A broad definition is offered by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke:

OCCULTISM has its basis in a religious way of thinking, the roots of which stretch back into antiquity and which may be described as the Western esoteric tradition. Its principal ingredients have been identified as Gnosticism, the Hermetic treatises on alchemy and magic, Neo-Platonism, and the Kabbalah, all originating in the eastern Mediterranean area during the first few centuries AD.[8]

I'm actually rather curious how an interest in the occult, which I have no problem with would interact with a mental illness, or personality disorder. I'll have a look into it later and see if I can post some links, my personal belief is that the crime itself was not 'satanic' at all.

Yeah, well, this definition is definitely broad. With it being that broad, I don't think it can be connected to mental illness in any meaningful way. I'm sure there are a lot of people who commit murder, who are Christians or any other religion, even Atheists and have strange beliefs about what god (or science) tells them (see Phillip Garrido who was trying to start his own church - his wife and mother were JW's). You are reading something into the term "Occult" that could be your bias.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

No, I'm not really .. I just wonder if a study into magical thinking and other things like that could be detrimental to someone who is already suffering from mental issues, perhaps leading them to read more meaning into events that are actually there for instance.

 

[time]

No, I'm not really .. I just wonder if a study into magical thinking and other things like that could be detrimental to someone who is already suffering from mental issues, perhaps leading them to read more meaning into events that are actually there for instance.

Same answer. I could also ask if having no spiritual beliefs would be detrimental to someone suffering from mental illness. See what I mean, jelly bean?

 

[reedus23]

I seriously can't believe we're talking about "occult motives" as evidence that DE committed these crimes.

Oh, I think it says a lot, but not about Damien's guilt.

 

[reedus23]

Sure he has, but how do you square that claim with all the evidence of Echols' far darker occult beliefs which I've presented in this thread and the rest at Callahan which I've yet to present, or do you just prefer to ignore all that evidence?

If you were to go through my library, you'd find a lot of books on serial killers and the mafia. Does the fact that I have expressed an interest in those subjects make me a serial killer or a mobster? Obviously not. That is why it is all meaningless. Now, if I went out and practiced what I have shown an interest in, that could make me a serial killer or mobster. Likewise, show me evidence he actually sacrificed people and what not then I might listen to your argument that his beliefs point towards guilt. Until then, it is meaningless in my opinion. And yes, I've heard it and read it so you don't have to tell me I'm ignoring it. I've weighed it and given it no weight is all.

 

[Cappuccino]

There's nothing about this crime that points to any connection with the occult, unless of course you believe Griffis with his waffle about wounds on the left of the body, etc. Some people in the area had a pre-existing belief in the conspiracy theory of a nationwide network of Satanic cults sacrificing people, including some in local LE. That's the root of all this stuff about Damien's beliefs, what books he reads, black t shirts, yada yada. There are, of course, individual murderers who include occult trappings in their crimes, eg Richard Ramirez. But this is not one of those crimes, there are no occult trappings present at all, either at the crime scene or on the bodies.

Now that the satanic cult conspiracy theory has been debunked, there is no rational reason to take any interest in Damien's beliefs, clothes, bookshelf, etc. Its back to front thinking. Its pick your favourite suspect and then imagine what his motive would be if he did it. We should be looking at the crime and the crime scene, and the evidence there, not looking at Damien Echols and thinking "if he was a murderer what type would he be?"

 

[Donamena]

There's nothing about this crime that points to any connection with the occult, unless of course you believe Griffis with his waffle about wounds on the left of the body, etc. Some people in the area had a pre-existing belief in the conspiracy theory of a nationwide network of Satanic cults sacrificing people, including some in local LE. That's the root of all this stuff about Damien's beliefs, what books he reads, black t shirts, yada yada. There are, of course, individual murderers who include occult trappings in their crimes, eg Richard Ramirez. But this is not one of those crimes, there are no occult trappings present at all, either at the crime scene or on the bodies.

Now that the satanic cult conspiracy theory has been debunked, there is no rational reason to take any interest in Damien's beliefs, clothes, bookshelf, etc. Its back to front thinking. Its pick your favourite suspect and then imagine what his motive would be if he did it. We should be looking at the crime and the crime scene, and the evidence there, not looking at Damien Echols and thinking "if he was a murderer what type would he be?"

As to the conspiracy theory involving Satanic cults, I think, if Satan is hanging around wanting to be adored anywhere, he would be in, say, Carmel, California, Hong Kong, London, Berlin, Paris...not Memphis..jmo absolutamente

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I seriously can't believe we're talking about "occult motives" as evidence that DE committed these crimes.

Ditto

That's all they had when they convicted him along with a ridiculous confession anyways.

Exactly. I would like it if someone could point out not by citing a website all of the "evidence" against Damien that is constantly referenced. There's Jessie's statements, all of which have glaring errors. There's the fibers, which, as I have explained, have now been debunked. There's "Exhibit 500," which proves nothing and, since it was not used to convict, IMO has no place in the discussion. There's the "evidence" of the softball girls, which, IMO, is spurious at best and outright lies at worst. There are statements from various Hollingsworths, supposedly placing him in the area where the bodies were discovered, which I give no weight to, especially in light of the new affidavits, since LG Hollingsworth was initially a suspect (albeit briefly, as his alibi from family and friends was accepted). What there is not is any credible physical evidence linking Damien (or Jason or Jessie) to the scene. IMO, given the violent nature of the crime, there would be some physical evidence, and, in fact, there is, but it is not connected to Damien, Jason or Jessie.

Connect him to the victims and the crime, show me some sort of actual evidence .

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

If those who still believe Damien, Jason and Jessie to be guilty were totally honest, what has them convinced is Jessie's statements. If Jessie was telling the truth, I, too, would believe in their guilt. However, Jessie is not telling the truth, no matter how many times he tells his tale.

He was a mentally challenged kid looking for the reward money so he could buy his daddy a truck when he entered the police station. He became confused, due to his mental handicap, by the intense police interrogation tactics no matter how long those tactics continued and, again due to his mental handicap, told them what he thought they wanted to hear, maybe even what they told him, but (of course) didn't record. In the end, in his confusion, he even implicated himself!

Jessie's statements simply do not match the forensics at the scene. Although as time passed, particularly after Jessie sat in the courtroom and heard the prosecution present their theory at his trial, Jessie's statements became more accurate, but none of his statements, including those done post conviction are accurate enough, IMO, to convict the three teens beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the bottom line, IMO. Again, IMO, this discussion of Damien's supposed "occult" motives is time wasting at best and ridiculous at worst. MOO

 

[kyleb]

No, I'm not really .. I just wonder if a study into magical thinking and other things like that could be detrimental to someone who is already suffering from mental issues, perhaps leading them to read more meaning into events that are actually there for instance.

In what little of Echols' own writings are included in Exhibit 500 are lyrics from arguably my favorite song of the many I've seen him quote from, Slayer's Dead Skin Mask. I always consider the takeaway lines from that song to be "in the depths of a mind insane, fantasy and reality are the same". In that regard I figure studying fanciful beliefs is unlikely to be helpful to someone who already has notable issues distinguishing fantasy from reality. Also, in regard to the song, Echols obviously didn't consider it the cautionary tale which I always have, but rather identified with the far darker and occult related portions of the lyrics:

Graze the skin with my finger tips
The brush of dead cold flesh pacifies the means
Provoking images delicate features so smooth
A pleasant fragrance in the light of the moon

Dance with the dead in my dreams
Listen to their hallowed screams
The dead have taken my soul
Temptation's lost all control

Not that I'm suggesting such lyrics or anything else Echols was interested in made him do what he did, rather I agree with what Marrylin Manson said in response to such superficial notions. Perhaps those lyrics inspired his towards specific actions in the murders like grazing the skin of the boys with his survival knife, but I figure Echols would've murdered regardless of if he listened to heavy metal, gospel, or otherwise.

If you were to go through my library, you'd find a lot of books on serial killers and the mafia. Does the fact that I have expressed an interest in those subjects make me a serial killer or a mobster?

No, nor does Echols' reading of occult books and such make him a murderer, but evidence that he embraced such beliefs does go a long way in demonstrating his motives behind committing the murders which he did.

There are, of course, individual murderers who include occult trappings in their crimes, eg Richard Ramirez.

I've never really looked into the case of Ramirez, but from what I have seen he didn't leave any notable evidence of his occult motives at the murderer scenes either, at lest nothing more notable than the naked, bound, and mutilated corpses which put Echols on the lists of potential suspects. If you know of more notable trappings of the occult at the murder scenes left by Ramirez, please share some examples.

 

[Cappuccino]

He drew a pentagram at one of the crime scenes. Not that it makes any difference to anything how "occulty" his crimes were, I just used Ramirez as the first example I thought of, he probably sprung into my head because he died recently. If you don't like that example, there are others.

This crime, however, is not one of them.

 

[kyleb]

I like your example of Ramirez very much, as while you apparently don't know of any notable trappings of the occult left at many of the murders he committed you've also apparently no trouble acknowledging his occult motives which lead to those murders. It seems Ramirez is an excellent example of how an occult motivated murder can commit murders without leaving anything notably indicative of those motives at the scenes of such murders. Is he not?

 

[Cappuccino]

I like your example of Ramirez very much, as while you apparently don't know of any notable trappings of the occult left at many of the murders he committed you've also apparently no trouble acknowledging his occult motives which lead to those murders. It seems Ramirez is an excellent example of how an occult motivated murder can commit murders without leaving anything notably indicative of those motives at the scenes of such murders. Is he not?

No, he is not. Ramirez was used as an example because he left occult trappings at one of his crime scenes at least. I have never been under any illusion that Ramirez's crimes were motivated by the occult, and if that's the illusion you're under I have some beach front property in Arizona you might like to buy.

You've missed the point by miles.

 

[kyleb]

Oh sure, Richard Ramirez, a guy who embraced very dark occult beliefs and murdered many people wasn't motivated at all by any such beliefs. So, would you also insist that KKK types aren't motivated by their very dark Cristian beliefs? Also, why not go further with Ramirez and argue that his confession was coerced, all the evidence used against him was either fabricated or misinterpreted, and he was simply persecuted for his believes because people needed someone to blame those murders on, as others did, including the women who married him?

 

[Cappuccino]

Richard Ramirez would have committed the exact same crimes whether or not he had ever heard of the occult. He just would have drawn something else at that crime scene. A smiley face maybe, (as one other serial killer did).

The point - which you seem to have missed - is that there is no reason to believe that an interest in the occult played any part whatsoever in this crime, and thus no reason to believe that Damien's interest in the occult is in any way relevant.

 

[kyleb]

Oh really, Ramirez would have committed "the exact same" murders? How exactly did you divine that, by studying a crystal ball, or perhaps through some other ritual induced trance state? I don't doubt that Ramirez would've murdered regardless of if he ever heard of the occult otherwise, but I've no clue how one could go about find any evidence to support the claim that the murders would've been the exact same aside from what you suggest he drew at one of the many locations at which he murdered people. Which murder scene was that pentagram supposedly drawn at anyway, and where did you hear as much?

 

[Cappuccino]

I read it here in one of the articles about his death. The rest of your questions are completely irrelevant to the wm3's case, so if you wish to pursue them, kindly take them to one of the several threads on here about Ramirez and his crimes.

Back to the point - if someone is investigating a crime where there are pentagrams, upside down crosses, devil's horns or whatever at the crime scene, it makes sense that they would be looking for suspects who have shown an interest in the occult. This is not one of those crimes, there are no occult trappings at all present here. There was, however, a pre-existing undercurrent of Satanic Panic in the town which some local LE were also infected by. Any murder in West Memphis at that time with no obvious motive would probably have been attributed to the local Satanic cult IMO, just as people were attributing road kill and fires left by transients to the local Satanic cult. That seemed realistic to alot of people in 1993.

It doesn't in 2013, which is why almost all on the non side now admit that Griffis' evidence was ridiculous. Instead, they start from the premise that Damien is guilty, and then use his interest in the occult as "proof" that it was an occult crime. Its back to front thinking. We need evidence first that the crime has any connection whatsoever to the occult, only then would Damien's reading material or beliefs become relevant.

Other than Griffis' rather silly waffle about left hand wounds and eight is a witches number, I've never seen any attempt to show such evidence. So until I do, quoting Damien's favourite song lyrics or the contents of his bookshelf at me will fail to achieve anything.

 

[reedus23]

Oh sure, Richard Ramirez, a guy who embraced very dark occult beliefs and murdered many people wasn't motivated at all by any such beliefs. So, would you also insist that KKK types aren't motivated by their very dark Cristian beliefs? Also, why not go further with Ramirez and argue that his confession was coerced, all the evidence used against him was either fabricated or misinterpreted, and he was simply persecuted for his believes because people needed someone to blame those murders on, as others did, including the women who married him?

Part of me wishes I could convey how making such absurd posts impacts the way all of your posts are viewed. Part of me says neither you nor I care. Carry on.