Eerie Similarity?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Barbara, Mar 31, 2004.

  1. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    For me, the similarity was enough to get my attention.

    Dee Laney, the woman now on trial in Texas who stoned her children to death (one survived) was by all accounts a pillar of the community, a devout Church going Christian, a devoted wife and mother, and all the adjectives that have been ascribed to Patsy Ramsey.

    NO WARNING SIGNS
    NO (and I always love this one) HISTORY
    NO PATHOLOGY

    Yet, how is it possible that she snapped one day, after "God told her to do it" and brutally stoned her children to death? By RST standards this could not possibly have happened.

    She felt that God spoke with her
    Patsy felt that God cured her

    She was a devoted wife and mother, according to those who knew her
    Patsy was a devoted wife and mother, according to those who knew her

    She had no history of mental illness, depression, etc.
    Patsy had no history of mental illness, depression, etc.

    The similarities are striking

    The defense for this woman is that you don't have to have a history like Andrea Yates to be "insane".

    There will be many experts prepared to testify that despite the lack of history and pathology, there is such a thing as "snapping" due to stress or many other things and these things can and do happen.

    Dee Laney "snapped" and stoned her kids

    Why isn't it possible that someone in the Ramsey household "snapped"?

    Not that I ever believed it wasn't possible, as did many others, but just another point to be driven home that it can and obviously DOES happen

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    But there is also a major difference:

    "Deanna Laney called police a little after midnight on Mother’s Day weekend last year. In a calm, flat and markedly cooperative voice she told police that she had just killed her three children.

    The 911 tape is eerie in its details. Perhaps the youngest wasn’t quite dead, she said, and perhaps maybe she wasn’t actually supposed to kill him. When asked who told her to do it, she responded “God” did. "

    Also this woman appers to have lived an isolated existence. But I'll be interested in what further background comes out about her.
     
  4. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    I seriously doubt that more background will come out enough to be able to say there were warning signs that went ignored.

    For me, who does not share the same religious faith and fervor of many, the warning sign in that case was Mrs. Laney standing in front of her church stating that God is speaking to her. For the members of the church, this was nothing unusual for them and perfectly normal for that particular culture.

    In Patsy's case, she credited God for her original cancer remission rather than the medical treatment she received. Again, a warning sign for someone like me, but for those involved in such religious faith, perfectly normal.

    So again, pathology and warning signs are in the eye of the beholder.

    The main point is that there does not have to be any history and pathology and "warning signs" for something horrific to occur where it had never happened before.

    What also struck me is that for both of these cases, the crime was so horrific in nature and very sick. It seems that for women like this with "wonderful lives and families", when they break, they break in a massive way.
     
  5. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    According to family members, Deanna was the very soul of a good mother with no history of problems.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/033104dntexlaneytrial.7b40.html

    Keith Laney had only the slightest hint of anguish in his deep East Texas voice but the haunted look of a man living an endless nightmare.

    Speaking publicly for the first time since two of his sons died and a third was maimed, he told a jury that he wonders every day why the devoted wife he still loves bashed their boys' heads in with stones last Mother's Day weekend.

    "I can't understand," he testified in the second day of Deanna Laney's capital murder trial. "We didn't have any problems."

    ...

    An hourlong videotape of what police found was played for jurors Tuesday morning. It showed the jarring contrast between the carnage ringed with yellow police tape and a warm, immaculate home filled with family pictures and toys.

    Beside the Laneys' front steps were signs with childish red letters: "thank God for Mothers" and "Mother's love grows here." Mr. Laney said his oldest sons made them at the church that was a focus of all their lives, Tyler's First Assembly of God.

    ...

    Mr. Laney said that he met Mrs. Laney at church and that he knew she was "filled with the Holy Spirit" in ways he was not. In 19 years of marriage, they lived by Scripture, with nightly Bible studies and daily prayer.

    His air-compressor shop was near their home, and Mrs. Laney home-schooled the boys to ensure them the one-on-one attention he lacked as a schoolchild, he said.

    "She loved the boys, yes," he said. "Just instances when they'd fall or have a wreck on their motorcycle, she was the first one there. She cared very deeply. One of 'em couldn't cry or whine but she'd be there."

    Though they sometimes worked through difficult spells, he said, his wife never mentioned worries or troubles. She got up happy every day and stayed that way, he said. Even early, he said, "she'd make you mad, 'cause she'd most of the time smile at you."

    He said they worked hard and were debt-free, with a paid-for house, a hobby farm with a cabin and a satisfying life. Their sons were their focus, but they socialized often with both of their parents. His wife told him the night their children died that she had called that evening to invite his parents to a steak cook-out on Mother's Day.
     
  6. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    I watched some of the footage on Court TV yesterday. The photos shown on TV of course were pale in comparison to the photos shown to the jury. They saw the autopsy photos complete with small children's heads and brains oozing out. Many in the courtroom just cried.

    So sad, so disturbing.

    But all I could think of was the constant RST ridicule of those who would suspect a parent of such a crime. "What mother would garrotte her own child, what mother would bash her child's head in? what mother would do such a thing?

    Mrs. Laney did it.

    The RST would have you believe that horrible crimes upon children are reserved for those trashy, welfare collecting, alcholic and drug addicted families with lots of history with no social standing. The fact of the matter is the wierder the crime and most often, the most horrific of crimes are committed by those who are pillars of the community and devoutly religious, with NO HISTORY!
     
  7. Shylock

    Shylock Former Member

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    "she was "filled with the Holy Spirit" in ways he was not. In 19 years of marriage, they lived by Scripture, with nightly Bible studies and daily prayer."

    Another delusional jesus psycho... People who believe they can be "filled with the Holy Spirit" should be locked in a rubber room and filled with the Holy Barbituates.


    IMO
     
  8. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    "Pillars of the community" and "devoutly religious" can be an oxymoron. Religious terrorists are currently trying to take over the world by killing all infidels (us), and have plunged the U.S. and other non-Islamic nations into a war of survival that may take generations to win. Killing three children because God told her to do it is akin to killing 3,000 people on 9/11 because Allah told them to do it.

    JMO
     
  9. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    This is a topic where I wholeheartedly agree. I shy away from topics dealing with religion in general as my viewpoints are appreciated by few to none, especially on the forums.

    More people have died in the name of God and religion than for any other reason on earth.

    For this reason, I do not condone, nor believe in "organized" religion. Religion is in the heart. God is everywhere (for those who choose to believe in God) and there is no need to go to a particular building to prove your faith.

    As far as your oxymoron of "pillars of the community" and "devoutly religious", I couldn't agree more!

    I too, read the papers.
     
  10. Spade

    Spade Inactive

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    An acquintance, who is a prosecuter, told me that whenever he saw a defendent show up in court with a Bible he knew they were trying the right perp.
     
  11. LovelyPigeon

    LovelyPigeon Former Member

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  12. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    This is what I have been saying for a long time. It is difficult to discern Good from Evil, normal from pathological. We are influenced by scientific materialism which states the mind is in the brain and is a product of chemical reaction and can be treated like the rest of the body: with surgery and medicine. It isn't.

    I say what Patsy did was not the result of mental illness but rather moral deficiency and lack of ego development that left her vulnerable to psychosis. Obsession with mythic figures and stories to the point of loss of ego authority and moral decision making is pathological but the signs are not only missed as warnings of pathology they are very often taken as signs of Divine power and authority working through a blessed individual. Look at the Middle East and Islam for example.

    Look at Tim McVeigh and Eric Harris, both involved in hero worship and fantasy literature as compensation for social failures.

    Evidence of Patsy's "condition" is there and a detailed examination of her life would reveal more, I think, from personal accounts and from her correspondences.

    I think the first indication of Patsy's condition, that I know of, is her repeated performances of the soliloquey from The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie and her rewriting of the part for her last performance, which she titled "Deadline", btw. I see this as a compensation, a way to publically shout "This is me!, I'm not what Mom thinks me to be." The characters in TPOMJB and the story are mythic and became more so for Patsy over time. Just as in the other cases the characters and storyline replace personal decision making, ultimately Gods are communicating with the psychotic with authority over life and death.

    The signs of this are all over the Ramsey case and will become more evident if Patsy lives long enough to speak and write more because she cannot help expressing herself in mythic terms.
     
  13. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    So far there is no record of anyone dying at the hands of a Gnostic.

    Barbara, I am interested in your religious views. It is a key factor in the Ramsey case.
     
  14. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    Good article. This article shows what I and others have been saying for years.

    There does not have to be a history, pathology, warning signs that are obvious, etc. for a parent to commit a horrible crime such as those of Andrea Yates and now Delaney.

    In Andrea Yates case, she had been crying out for help for quite some time and her cries went ignored and misinterpreted. In Delaney's case, quite the opposite. Nobody would have guessed ever that she could be capable of doing such things, given the family's status, seemingly wonderful marriage and family life, etc.

    JUST LIKE THE RAMSEYS! The old mantra of no history, no pathology, no "reports" of depression and stress, etc. means absolutely nothing when trying to solve a crime. In reality, the reports of Mrs. Delaney by all accounts were way more positive than the reports about Patsy and the Ramsey family. In Ramsey, there were reports that the friends were concerned about Patsy and the pageants, that Patsy was a little overwhelmed with turning 40, and other hints from those who knew them that it was not so perfect in paradise at the Ramsey house, yet there were still those who would not let go of the "history", "pathology", and all the other nonsense that was spewing as "valid" rationale that Patsy could not possibly have committed this crime.

    This is the real world and yes, anything can happen and yes, by anyone
     
  15. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    I agree. And the problem is getting worse as self-appointed disciples use TV to spread their nonsense worldwide.

    I often wonder how much of this stuff Patsy pounded into the head of Burke.

    JMO
     
  16. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    Not relevant before the event, as Burke had nothing to do with it, but certainly after.
     
  17. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    Like John said, perhaps this will all "hit" Burke when he's 40.

    Just like Patsy? I wonder what hit her when she turned 40; I found that to be an interesting remark considering the public speculation that turning 40 may have stressed her.

    Brothermoon,

    My religious views are unpopular and I really don't discuss them much. I think people in general rely too much on religion. The "fear of God" and hell and heaven choices should not come into play when thinking about stealing, murder, adultery, and general bad behavior. Bad behavior and such should be dismissed just because they are WRONG and not because of the fear of going to Hell when the time comes or the punishment of God.

    Unlike the Ramseys, if someone hurt my child, I really don't care what God feels about forgiving them, etc. The important thing to me is whether or not I forgive them. I would find no comfort in being told that a murderer is loose but God will punish them. I want the prisons and the court system to punish them, and if there is in fact a God, then he can do what he wants with them AFTER punishment here on earth.

    That's my overall and non specific ideas on religion in a quick nutshell and please forgive me if I don't discuss it at length anymore.
     
  18. Britt

    Britt New Member

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    My thoughts exactly, Barbara. Thank you for saying it. :)

    Great posts, you guys... fascinating thread.

    I just want to say again: I think BrotherMoon is closest to the truth about this crime. Excellent posts, BrotherM. I just can't give John a pass, though. IMO there is more to his support of Patsy than blind husbandly devotion. What was he "sorry" for?
     
  19. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    Wow, Barbara...I think you could be my best friend!!!
    :clap:

    I have been shouting almost exactly the same words to 'Good Christians' everywhere for as long as I can remember!!!

    The flip-side of the argument is the annoying statement, "Well, of course I will help my neighbor...I am a Christian." I want to gag!!

    I would so much rather see good deeds done by good people who don't listen to God.
     
  20. Barbara

    Barbara New Member

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    Wow, you guys! You have no idea how much your support means. I was half expecting to be run off the boards for my religious opinions.

    I am really grateful that you were willing to say so here on the forums.

    Oh Boy! A whole new set of best friends.

    Thanks so much.
     
  21. WolfmarsGirl

    WolfmarsGirl New Member

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    Tipper, I have often wondered about John's involvement in the cover-up. Frankly, I don't think he was involved in any way in the crime or the staging.

    But, still I wonder...

    We have always assumed (at least I have) that Patsy accidentally killed JBR. What if that is not the case?

    What if Patsy, like Yates or Laney, intentionally killed JBR and was heading for Burke's room next???

    What a perfect night to send the kids to God.

    What if John discovered the whole mess before Patsy could complete the job? She didn't get to Burke because, maybe, John stepped in???

    Maybe, if allowed to carry out her entire mission, as completely as Yates and Laney, Patsy would have called 911 - just like the other women.

    Maybe John, being overly-concerned about how his family would look to the rest of the world and about how the Ramsey name would forever be tarnished by his psychotic wife's delusional killing spree, convinced Patsy to cover up what she had done instead of calling the police and confessing!

    Maybe that is why nothing makes sense in this crime! Maybe it should have unfolded like the Laney case, but John wouldn't let it.

    So, we see evidence that is not evidence, odd behavior by both Ramseys, attorneys lining the halls, refusal to cooperate with LE...

    Maybe Patsy has always wanted to 'crack,' so to speak, but John won't let her...Maybe he saw signs in Patsy prior to the murder, but ignored them.

    Is it possible?

    We can't say this type of behavior is not possible...Look at the case that we just examined. This type of crime is happening far too often lately and it is not impossible to think Patsy might have become one of these too-common perps.

    There are two truths that make the Ramsey case look different from the Laney case:

    1. Patsy did not call 911 and confess.
    2. The death of JBR was disguised as a kidnapping-gone-wrong.

    Couldn't Laney also stage a kidnapping instead of a confession??? Sure, all she would have to do would be to drag the boys' bodies out into the woods and write the note.

    Why didn't she?

    Because she never intended to hide her crime...

    Maybe Patsy didn't either.

    What if Laney's husband woke up immediately after the slayings. Could he have convinced Laney not to confess? Can you imagine that scenario? The Laneys would have been up all night trying to cover up what Deanna did. We would end up with a Ramsey crime scene all over again.
     

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